Hello, Everyone:

I am banging my head against a wall: I am trying to get the MS2 to run a DCC loco from the starter set that came with an Ice train and a diesel loco BR 218.

I believe one of the two locos should have address no 3, but it does not work. None of the nearby addresses works either.

I tried to change the CV and the MS2 keeps on telling me that it times out.

No other loco/wagon was present on the track while I tried to run a DCC loco.

Do you have any words on wisdom for me?

Thanks.

Silvano

P.S. The Marklin 30000 does run on the K track; so at least I connected successfully one Marklin loco.

Thank you, Tom. Please do ask whatever other info may be needed.

To answer your questions:

1. It is a Roco set: 51256 that came with a Multimaus and both locos worked well with it; I have since traded it for my gray MS2 and am happy I did.

(I am now trying to use the black MS2 from my recent purchase of a Marklin start set to run DCC locos as well as Marklin locos on the K tracks.)


2. The MS2 is connected to the K track - works with Marklin and all I did is swap the Marklin loco for a Roco digital loco that came with the Roco set.

(These are the K tracks I used before to run in analogue both DC and analogue Marklin. As a testing procedure, I only connected a few straight tracks.)


3. I tried using the "find" function - no luck. I also tried changing the address to 1-6, no luck. I also tried to reset the CV by using the no. 8 value, but the message is always that the process is timed out.

Thank you.

Silvano

Done.

I switched the wires - now red to "O" and brown to "B". No luck.

The Marklin 30000 still works just fine (I did not think it would )

I changed addresses 1-6 to no aval. I tried to program the CV to 8 to reset it - time out.

The 2290 feeder track cannot be used for two-rail operation as it connects both outer rails.

You cannot operate Roco locos without centre-rail slider with a 2290 in the layout.

Do not use the 2290 feeder track. Make your own feeder track out of e.g. a 2200 - a feeder track with three wires (left rail, right rail, centre rail).

I did that with C track.

Using two 2295, one with the cable clips on the left rail, one with cable clips on the right rail, will do the trick for the Roco locos.

You can use a 7504 to provide power to the centre rail.

You can use two 7500 instead of the two 2295.

Do not confuse the DCC protocol with DC (direct current).

I have plenty of locomotives that are 3 rail AC that I run using the DCC protocol on my MS2 connected to K track.

As mentioned your Roco 51256 has a DCC decoder but it is for 2 rail DC, not 3 rail AC.

If you want to run different types of locos on the same segment of track, the locos need to be configured to use the same conductor pickup configurations: 3 rail or 2 rail (whether its DC, AC, digital , doesnt matter). Because in 2 rail configuration, the left and right rails are isolated and the power and signal (if digital) pick is from those two, if in 3 rail configuration, the left and right rails are typically connected electrically, and the center rail is the 2nd electrical connection. The locos and cars are similarly configured often: 2 rail cars have the wheels electrically isolated (or mostly), while 3 wheel cars have the wheels electrically connected.

If you have a 2 rail loco and a 3 rail loco and you want to run them on the same track, then you need to convert ONE of them to use the system of the other. Depending on the way the locos are built you may be able to convert one to use the other (2rail to 3 rail or 3rail to 2 rail), based on changing where the pickups from wheels are and what internal wiring you can modify.

Once you have the electrical connections (2 vs 3 and the signals getting TO the loco), then you can address the issue of which digital signaling solution is being used (mfx, DCC) by configuring the decoder.

But you cannot run 3 rail and 2 rail on the same track. If you have 3 conductor (eg Märklin) track the two rails are typically connected (especially on C track), so to isolate those two to get 2 conductor running, you may better change the 2 conductor loco to use one rail and add a pickup shoe to use the center conductor.

Yes, fair enough. ;-) I'd say, if you have to change the power feed, you've somewhat change the track configuration, but yes.

Silvano, I can certainly feel our frustration. And it may be that I'm just confused about what the set up is. I've personally never run analogue trains, and only some digital, but in addition to having stayed at a Holiday Inn Express (at some point, and its a USA joke that doesn't translate outside of the US), I am an electrical engineer by training.

So when you say you have run Märklin AC, I assume you mean: Märklin 3 conductor trains on a 3 conductor track with central pickup shoe, powered by an AC transformer (trafo), with the DC supply disconnected.

And when you say 2 rail DC, I assume you mean some DC train powered by a DC power system, but with the AC transformer disconnected.

And I'm assuming you are using 3 conductor K-track with the two rails of k track disconnected from one another, so you have 3 independent conduction paths on the entire layout.
I'm also assuming that all of the track is electrically connected - that is that your not switching off power to segments other trains are on, even if they are not used.

What I'm puzzled about is how, when your running your DC train with DC power supply applied to the 3 conductor track, so + voltage on one rail, - voltage on the other rail, nothing connected to the center conductors, how is it the 3 conductor equipment (cars and loco) are not causing a short as they would conduct from the left to the right rail? Do have DC wheelsets on the Märklin locomotive with power pickups to the loco only happening from ONE side of the train? That might explain things.

Are the Märklin locos parked in an electrically isolated segment of the layout before you connect up the DC power supply?


I think my confusion comes from not being experienced in analogue running and not fully understanding the peculiarities of what bits of the layout are electrically connected to what other bits (via special tracks) and the changes in power supplies you are doing, all when switching from 3 conductor AC to 2 conductor DC running.

The 2295 provides for (near as I can tell) isolating one rail over some section of track, so you get 3 independent conductors in that area, with a connection off that segregated rail. The 2290 feeder track (Märklin indicates its only for Delta and Digital, which implies not for analogue AC operation) just patches the power into the rails. That, if its a siding, would provide isolating that Märklin loco on that siding, while its in that 2295 segregated segment past our turnout. So the AC signal you apply there nor the parked locomotive, would affect the main line connectivity and signal between the main line left and right tracks. But once the analogue AC powered loco pulls out of the siding on the the turnout/mainline, how does it get its power?

If you have disconnected the DC power supply and are also powering that main line by the same AC transformer, then things will work fine (since the DC locos would see no effective power (as both their wheel pickups see the same voltage, so a difference of 0 - aka off)

If you park the Märklin analog AC 3 conductor loco on its isolated siding, and THEN disconnect the transformer and connect a DC power supply to power your DC locos which then run on the main line, that would be fine too. Because the Märklin 3 conductor loco is on the electrically isolated section, so its conducting wheel/axles don't connect the two rails on the switch or main line (as on of the siding rails is isolated via the 2295).

Is that how you are running things in analogue (ac 3 conductor and dc 2 conductor)?

If not, maybe draw up a diagram that illustrates the way the electrical connections are in the states of AC analogue running, and DC analogue running, and post it.

But if that is how its set up and works, its surely due to the fact that you are using two different power supplies solutions on your layout, but only one of them at a time (The DC one connected to the left and right rails, the center pickups not connected; or the AC one connected to the outside rails, and the other to the center pickups).

With a Mobil Station I would think you can similarly change the location where the track box connects the power+digital signal to the track - either the outside rails (non Märklin DCC loco) or the outside + center for mfx digital loco. But you'd have to change the plugs (the center going to the one side rail) when you change over.

There is some small assumption or thing I'm not picking up on ....

To clarify: The top siding - the empty one - is the parking for the DC Ice Train that in the video is standing still on the perimeter of the oval.

(The Ice Train is actually digital, but I was running it in analogue DC as I still do.)

That must have been very interesting to see. Operating that layout would take some constant effort, but could be quite fun, flipping switches as the trains proceed down the tracks.

So that special rail where one side is cut, isolates one of the rails in the siding. That keeps the 3 conductor locos and cars from causing the left and right rails to be connected (shorted) when the track is powered by a DC power supply. Its not preventing AC current; just isolating the 3 conductor Märklin locomotive (and possibly cars) from causing the two rails to be connected.

When your switching between AC with 3 conductor with 2 common rails and center puko pickup operation, and DC with the 2 conductor on the rails operation, you are changing out power supplies and how they connect to the track, correct?

So if you want to use a Mobile Station 2 to run 3 rail mm/mfx Märklin trains and 2 rail DCC trains on the same layout, you would also have to change the power supply. Still using the same equipment but move the location of one of the track feed wires from the center studs to the outside studs (on the side you have isolated for the Märklin siding(s). In Märklin mode the two wires would go to one rail and the center conductors (pukos). In DCC 2 rail, the wires would go one to the left rail and one to the right rail. I'd think that would work so long as you only have locos and rolling stock compatible with that connection system on the non-isolated track main segments.

DEED ACCOMPLISHED ON TEST BENCH LAYOUT!

Today, I went to Mike's and obtained the following gear:

1. Blue Sea Systems WeatherDeck Panel switch;

2. Item no 7504 - the little clip that gives power to the centre rail WITHOUT affecting the two rails around it;

3. Mike's explanations on how to set it up at home - crucial.


RESULT:

By flipping the switch one way or the other, I get to run on the same tracks either my Marklin 30000 OR my Roco diesel BR 218 (DCC).

(I can also run my Roco Ice 2 loco that came with the digital starter set no 51256 [as did the Roco diesel BR 218 loco] but, inexplicably, after I run the Ice 2 loco for one minute, something in it creates a short and the MS2 red STOP light comes on. If I leave the loco on without moving it, this does not happen. This also does not happen if I run it in analogue and did not happen when I ran it in digital with the Roco Multimaus )

Problem solved - at least as far as using BOTH Marklin and DCC on the same layout is concerned - now I have to deal with the Ice 2 issue. Such is life.

That is all from Toronto.

Over.

Silvano

Silvano,

one thing that you have to pay very careful attention to is to ensure that when you are running in DC or 2 rail DCC, that ALL locomotives, cars and coaches that are designed for operation on 3 rail AC are removed from that particular track/circuit as the non-insulated wheelsets on any of those will cause a short. I also don't know whether your track has any switch tracks on it, as Maerklin switch tracks also connect the two outer rails to each other. I know that some people have modified them to eliminate that issue.

I am also curious about the use of the Maerklin CS or MS with such a set up, as I am not sure what the MM signal might do to a straight DCC decoder. I wonder if the MM output can be disabled so that only the DCC signal is present.

I have a short test track that I can use either with AC or DC, much the way that Randy had it set up at John's Photo.

If you are going to use a switch to select AC or DC or MM Digital or DCC power source, I would recommend that you use a switch that allows you to select only one option, as having two connected at the same time can cause significant damage to equipment.

Try running the ICE2 and eliminate one intermediate coach as you go along until it is just powerhead and pilot coach. Does that model have a relay to select whether power is coming from the powerhead or the pilot coach? If yes, there may be some issue with the relay when used with Maerklin DCC.

Just out of curiosity. Can you power the ICE 2 from the catenary? If yes, try running it and see if the same problem occurs. As there is only one panto per consist, it should not have the issue mentioned above.

Regards

Mike C

The ET194 locos produced at the end of 2016 have the option of using catenary.

So, I finally put together a simple oval in the shape of two herring bones such that in the middle it's almost like a reverse loop but it isn't. The train comes back in a separate track, adjacent to the first one.

The new K track layout runs DCC and, with a flip of the switch, Marklin.

As before, on the test track, the Roco Ice 2 train creates a short after running one minute or less. I have no idea what causes it but it has nothing to do with the set up since the other loco, BR 218, works very well.

(The problem with the Ice 2 is a pity since I now only have one DCC loco in good working order and I have no particular interest at this time to buy another DCC loco.)

What is important for me, though, is that I have accomplished a little feat: having both systems run on the same track.

Of course, I could not have done it without the helpful assistance of all who answered my questions here in this thread and Mike at the Marklin shop.

THANK YOU to all!

UNHAPPY DEVELOPMENT:

The BR 218 now has also the short problem when I run it with the MS2.

I have tried shutting off the light on the BR 218 and it worked. After a while, the loco slowed down a lot but continued running and picked up speed back to normal. It kept on running.

I then tried turning on the cabin light and eventually the the short re-appeared - the MS2 dreaded red light came on.

I then tried again without the cabin light and it works fine.


WHY does the light make a difference?????


I tried the same thing with the Ice 2 - no luck - the loco just keeps on shorting the MS2 with or without lights on.

Is there a problem with the set up, the locos or both?

Any suggestions?

Thank you.