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Offline bzzi  
#1 Posted : 05 December 2016 22:32:33(UTC)
bzzi

Czech Republic   
Joined: 05/12/2016(UTC)
Posts: 9
Location: Prague
Hello,

I have several digital C-track turnouts and Mobile station, but I don't like operating these turnouts from this Mobile station - it's quite annoying to list proper turnout in the list. I'd like to have control box with hardware buttons (something like Marklin 72752), but I want to program it with turnout digital addresses. Is there any control box like that? I don't want to use analog turnouts due to wiring. I'm interested in as small amount of wires as possible. Also I invested to 7 turnout digital controllers from Marklin and I don't want to invest more or replace them. Also I don't want to spend money for Central station.

Thanks.

... bzzi
Avatar picture - narrow gauge rack railway in High Tatras, Slovakia
https://en.wikipedia.org...3%C5%A0trba_rack_railway
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Offline clapcott  
#2 Posted : 06 December 2016 02:12:11(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
There is no Marklin solution for this.

The closest you will find is the 72760 which is for the manual control of the new signals (with embedded decoder).

I believe that the issue of this item not being "advertised" as being able to work with other devices (turnouts and legacy signals) is due to the power requirements of these older devices and the lack of power provided from the 72760 itself. This, in turn, may have been influenced by marketing getting in the way or the continuing lack of understanding by product management.


If you do wish to pursue this option you need to assess the peripheral mandatory requirements and limitations

1) This solution works separately from your MS track power
- i.e. you need totally separate Brown/Red connections from that provided from your mobile station track-box to the rails.
- once accessories are connected via the 72760, they will no longer be able to be controlled by your mobile station

2) There is insufficient power from the 72760 to drive turnouts (It only sends commands)
Therefore you must have an external power source for the decoder that drives the turnout (or legacy signal).
so
- 74460 under roadbed decoders are totally out of the equation
- 74461 requires an EXTERNAL power feed for the Yellow SEPARATE from the RED feed which most people use.
- 6083(0) = no go - no external power option
- 60831 needs a 66360 (if you follow the rules you must also have a 60822, but I personally would not bother)

3) The 72760 supports 4 address and these are hard coded as 1 to 4
- should Marklin extend this solution (which I do not believe they will), a slave 72760 (maybe 72761 or 72762) would allow for address configuration.

4) the 72760 also needs its power source - another 66360
- The my world track adapter with its power supply is an option , but should not be the first choice

5) if you wish to extend this solution for 5-8 item you need another 72760 (plus 60831 AND 66360)
- the addresses would be another set of 1 to 4
- as with the comment for 3) - future products to mitigate the need for extra power supply would be desirable but are unlikely.

6) Operationally the 72760 uses push-on, push-off buttons (aimed at signals) but its controller only sends a pulse as you change state.
- this means issues when using 3 or 4 aspect devices
- also means using the extended functions of a m83 (each port toggles separately) is off the agenda unless you use only 4 of the 8 ports.

With this perspective, you may find that the ROI is not worth it compared with other , non Marklin, options.
Or it may help your business case for a more versatile and ergonomically acceptable controller.

Edited by user 06 December 2016 21:23:57(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Peter
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Offline DaleSchultz  
#3 Posted : 06 December 2016 04:23:07(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
I would connect some push buttons to s88 module inputs. Then tell the digital system that when a particular s88 is triggered, it should set the turnout as desired.

For example:

Connections:
button 1 -> s88 port 5
button 2 -> s88 port 6
button 3 -> s88 port 7
button 4 -> s88 port 8
Turnout 1 - k83 port 3 RED/GREEN
Turnout 2 - k83 port 4 RED/GREEN

Logic
when s88 5 is triggered set k83 address 3 to RED
when s88 6 is triggered set k83 address 3 to GREEN
when s88 7 is triggered set k83 address 4 to RED
when s88 8 is triggered set k83 address 4 to GREEN


Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
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Offline Purellum  
#4 Posted : 06 December 2016 20:19:49(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,498
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Cool

How about getting an "old" 6021 + 6040, and wire a separate bus for the turnouts ??

Per.

Cool
If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

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Offline abisel  
#5 Posted : 07 December 2016 23:10:47(UTC)
abisel

United States   
Joined: 07/12/2012(UTC)
Posts: 139
Location: St. Charles, Missouri
Originally Posted by: Purellum Go to Quoted Post
Cool

How about getting an "old" 6021 + 6040, and wire a separate bus for the turnouts ??

Per.

Cool


^^^ I think this may be the best solution. You will have to get a couple other items to interface to the 6021 and 6040. such as Terminal 60125 and Connect 6021, 60128. Or like said above, just wire the 6021 and 6040 separately to the switches solenoids.

Capture.PNG
Offline Rwill  
#6 Posted : 08 December 2016 15:45:41(UTC)
Rwill

United Kingdom   
Joined: 04/05/2015(UTC)
Posts: 777
Location: England, London
Am I missing the point here?

It seemed to me that the OP was describing his modest layout with 7 turnouts each with a built in decoder and point motor controlled by an MS2. What he has should be "the perfect solution" as the decoders are powered at the track and the MS2 joins the track by one simple track control so no real wiring required at all probably great for a carpetbahn of flexible layout. But as I can understand the MS2 is not a tactile control solution for the turnouts albeit it does work. So as I have done and described previously a 6021/6040 circuit is of course a good solution. However you obviously required a another mains transformer and a wiring loop around the turnouts for separate red and brown power - hardly a wireless solution. And if you don't happen to have the odd 6021/6040/transformer lying around then even though these are obsolete you will pay about £200 for non warranted goods to get going. Which is at least about ten times cheaper than the suggestion in the last post again albeit that from a track point of view that would be limited to one track control box. It would be lovely if there was a Marklin solution of a 6040 keyboard type box that could link in to the MS2 - but there isn't!. So I guess as usual young Mr Clapcott's prompt and concise reply is as usual spot on!
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Offline clapcott  
#7 Posted : 08 December 2016 19:52:01(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
If the 6040 option is acceptable, then you would use a 6020 rather than a 6021 (at about a third the price on ebay)

Therefore (2nd hand - technically = absolutely feasible, only need to be wary of button wear/usage on the keyboard)
- Transformer + 6020 + 6040 = control of 16 devices (provides necessary power so 74461 decoder Red and Yellow connected together with red from 6020)
expandable
+ additional 6040 (up to 15) for increments of 16 device control (up to 256)

Or (if you have 74461 decoders)
- PowerSupply(66360) + 72760(4 devices) + power supply (for external power feed (Yellow) to decoders).
Note: not sanctioned by Marklin - be careful with wiring.

If you can find yourself a 6023(and transformer) then an old PC (e.g. 286) will give you access to all 256 addresses with no other hardware than a serial cable.


Comment: glancing sideways on ebay.de and checking for 72760, it is rather apparent, from the images posted, that some sellers have no idea what they are selling.
The fact that they may be propagating false images that Marklin had provided at some stage is no excuse. The 72760 has 4 buttons not 8.
ref: https://www.marklin-user...7-72760-Shock#post505817
Peter
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Offline BrandonVA  
#8 Posted : 08 December 2016 21:38:56(UTC)
BrandonVA

United States   
Joined: 09/12/2011(UTC)
Posts: 2,533
Location: VA
Do the decoders support DCC? If you wire the decoders seperately of the track, you could use a computer and Arduino to make a very inexpensive DCC controller using something like DCC++:

https://github.com/DccPlusPlus/BaseStation

Also you could create a switchboard with JMRI:

http://jmri.sourceforge.net/help/en/html/apps/PanelPro/PanelPro.shtml

I have just been considering this sort of thing for my own layout.

-Brandon
Offline DaleSchultz  
#9 Posted : 08 December 2016 22:40:35(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
I don't have a Mobile Station, can anyone tell me if it can react to an s88 input and turn a turnout as a result?

If it can, then the solution is as simple as connecting two buttons to an s88 module and a bit of logic.

If the MS can't do this by itself, can it be controlled by a phone app that can add the "if s88 3 then turnout 5-red" logic?

(I use an Intellibox and write my own software so I can do all this trivially, and am struggling to believe that such a simple requirement is inviting such complex responses)

Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline H0  
#10 Posted : 08 December 2016 23:16:46(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: DaleSchultz Go to Quoted Post
I don't have a Mobile Station, can anyone tell me if it can react to an s88 input and turn a turnout as a result?
Yes, surely - with a CS2 in between. Other controllers may also do.
But seriously I don't see a cheap solution in that direction.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline RayF  
#11 Posted : 08 December 2016 23:23:58(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
The MS2 is not capable of external inputs. I'm afraid the only way to control turnouts on a MS2 system is either using the MS2 itself or with manual control boxes. I prefer the latter, albeit that it requires some extra wiring.

I plan to experiment using both my MS2, one dedicated to running the trains and the other to switching the turnouts, but I need to buy some decoders first.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline bzzi  
#12 Posted : 09 December 2016 00:38:32(UTC)
bzzi

Czech Republic   
Joined: 05/12/2016(UTC)
Posts: 9
Location: Prague
Thank you for your answers.

I have to clarify it a bit. I will use it with 5-years old son, so I need to reduce wires as much as possible :)

Yes, I'm thinking about flexible layout - that is another reason of "wireless" solution.

I don't need to have everything original from Märklin. If Märklin does not have solution, I would be happy if others do. There is wireless solution with Mobile station. I would expect there must be some other from other companies too.

I thought that I would not need to send power, because it is already in the rail, I thought that proper signal with address and command would be enough.
Avatar picture - narrow gauge rack railway in High Tatras, Slovakia
https://en.wikipedia.org...3%C5%A0trba_rack_railway
Offline H0  
#13 Posted : 09 December 2016 08:01:33(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Originally Posted by: bzzi Go to Quoted Post
I thought that proper signal with address and command would be enough.
The turnouts you have receive power and commands through the rails.
Commands could come through separate wires - but you do not want that.

Commands coming through the rails must come through the Mobile Station.
You could try a CAN-StellPult for that purpose.
I have never seen one in real life. I think they do not have an English site, so this could be a problem.
http://www.can-digital-b...sys5&modul=3#Mod_Top
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline RayF  
#14 Posted : 09 December 2016 11:49:33(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Hi!
Originally Posted by: bzzi Go to Quoted Post
I thought that proper signal with address and command would be enough.
The turnouts you have receive power and commands through the rails.
Commands could come through separate wires - but you do not want that.

Commands coming through the rails must come through the Mobile Station.
You could try a CAN-StellPult for that purpose.
I have never seen one in real life. I think they do not have an English site, so this could be a problem.
http://www.can-digital-b...sys5&modul=3#Mod_Top


Tom, thats an interesting accessory. Any idea where I may be able to buy one and how much they cost?
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline H0  
#15 Posted : 09 December 2016 12:49:34(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Any idea where I may be able to buy one and how much they cost?
They list three dealers:
http://www.can-digital-b...om/weblinks.php?cat_id=2

In the past I found that at least one dealer asked higher prices than the CAN project pricelist.

Maybe try the Contact form and ask if you can place a direct order with them:
http://www.can-digital-bahn.com/contact.php
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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