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Offline PMPeter  
#1 Posted : 21 October 2016 20:21:03(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,273
Location: Port Moody, BC
My new Marklin 37017 S2/6 has arrived c/w white gloves as noted in the other thread regarding new purchases. There was a question posted in that thread whether anyone else is experiencing traction problems. Well I can confirm that I am having the same problem.

At the beginning of any incline the loco just stops and the big wheels just spin. The same happens in a transition curve on a flat level. My inclines are 2% and less so if this loco spins with no cars attached how will it ever pull any cars up a grade?

For the price I must say I am very upset to have such a basic issue since I will not be able to use it on my layout unless I can somehow add some weight. Has anyone solved this problem?

Peter
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Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 21 October 2016 20:31:44(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Hi!

Some modern Märklin locos need smooth transitions at the beginning of inclines.
If the incline starts without transition, then the powered wheels may hang in the air and start slipping. I don't have this loco, I don't know your tracks - but maybe that's the problem here.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline PMPeter  
#3 Posted : 21 October 2016 20:42:52(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,273
Location: Port Moody, BC
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Hi!

Some modern Märklin locos need smooth transitions at the beginning of inclines.
If the incline starts without transition, then the powered wheels may hang in the air and start slipping. I don't have this loco, I don't know your tracks - but maybe that's the problem here.


I can understand that, but the start of the transition is in fact the start of the incline. The wheels in my case are not hanging in air. They are making contact with the track and slipping. The same problem occurs if I have a right hand switch followed by a left hand curve for parallel station tracks. The minute the locomotive comes out of the switch and hits the curve the big wheels just spin.

This seems to be an inadequate weight issue for the large driver wheels.
Offline Dreadnought  
#4 Posted : 21 October 2016 20:59:25(UTC)
Dreadnought

Canada   
Joined: 24/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 418
Location: Niagara, Ontario
I have this locomotive in the original green livery. I have no problems pulling five coaches up my almost 10% inclines. When I first put an incline ramp in my layout, I was told make the start on a strait, and make the initial transition to the ramp very gradual, I.e. As gentle as possibly how. Hopefully this helps.
Offline waltklatt  
#5 Posted : 21 October 2016 21:14:27(UTC)
waltklatt

United States   
Joined: 17/03/2012(UTC)
Posts: 138
Are both of the front and rear bogies on a spring loaded attachment to the frame?
Maybe the springs are too stiff and pushing the bogies down instead of allowing the main wheels to keep contact with rails.
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Offline dickinsonj  
#6 Posted : 22 October 2016 01:40:47(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,676
Location: Crozet, Virginia
Originally Posted by: Dreadnought Go to Quoted Post
I have this locomotive in the original green livery. I have no problems pulling five coaches up my almost 10% inclines. When I first put an incline ramp in my layout, I was told make the start on a strait, and make the initial transition to the ramp very gradual, I.e. As gentle as possibly how. Hopefully this helps.

I also have a 37015 and mine pulls any reasonable consist up any reasonable incline without any slippage. I am very happy with the performance of this loco, although another forum user who bought a 37017 told me that he had traction issues as well.

I am guessing that there is something wrong with your 37017, as I doubt that painting it blue could cause this problem. This model cost way too much to be having issues like this IMO.

Edited by user 31 October 2016 12:48:32(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
Offline PMPeter  
#7 Posted : 22 October 2016 02:12:18(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,273
Location: Port Moody, BC
I'm starting to think someone forgot to add some weight to this loco. It is very light compared to my other steam locos. Any possibility someone who owns this loco can weigh it?

I have taken HO's suggestion and tried shimming my transition from flat to incline by another 12 inches or so using cardboard strips and this helps somewhat as long as I am at about 50% speed, however it does not solve the slippage I am getting when coming out of my level right hand switch and left hand curve.

I have approximately 20 locos and I have never had one slip until today.

Peter
Offline dominator  
#8 Posted : 22 October 2016 02:25:24(UTC)
dominator

New Zealand   
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 1,195
Location: Kerikeri
I heard someone say the latest P8 would not pull the skin off a rice pudding eh BD. Maybe clean the rubber tyres first and clean your track. Maybe add some lead somewhere near the rubber tyred wheels if cleaning doesn't work. . When i prepare my m tracks o rub my finger over the rails with a tiny bit of oil to stop corrosion.[ Yes a no no but what the hell. my track doesn't go rusty. ] I set up some track on my kitchen table and got my 2 Crocs going when I first got a delta controller., One of the Crocs wheel spun with only 5 carriages behind it. i promptly cleaned the track with a cloth and cleaned the tyres.
Dereck
My 3000 locos would not pull the skin of a rice pudding with the original nylon tyres.
Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä
Offline PMPeter  
#9 Posted : 22 October 2016 02:44:52(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,273
Location: Port Moody, BC
Originally Posted by: waltklatt Go to Quoted Post
Are both of the front and rear bogies on a spring loaded attachment to the frame?
Maybe the springs are too stiff and pushing the bogies down instead of allowing the main wheels to keep contact with rails.


Yes both bogies are sprung and have a lot of movement. There is a screw holding each in place and I gave each screw another 1/4 turn and that really helped. I don't want to tempt my luck by trying to tighten them any further in fear of snapping them.

However, it still slips when coming out of a turnout. I shouldn't have this much problem with a brand new loco.
Offline dominator  
#10 Posted : 22 October 2016 07:37:42(UTC)
dominator

New Zealand   
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 1,195
Location: Kerikeri
How much does it weigh.
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Offline aos  
#11 Posted : 22 October 2016 12:50:46(UTC)
aos

Scotland   
Joined: 03/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 524
Location: Livingston, Scotland
Peter, I must admit that I am quite fastidious about track cleanliness. I have two consists running which permanently have the Marklin track cleaning cars attached. I also regularly use some kitchen roll folded and drag it along the tracks to pick up any excess oil. You will be amazed how dirty the kitchen roll gets, even on a so-called "clean" track. Give it a try, Don't forget your tyres as well. They may have already been contaminated and stretched. Therefore, they will just spin on the wheels. If that is the case, they will need replacing. Alan.
Offline RayF  
#12 Posted : 22 October 2016 15:05:27(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
My 37015 pulls 4 Trix coaches easily around my R2/R1 curves at realistic speeds. Sometimes the wheels slip on starting, but this is realistic behaviour for a loco with big wheels.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline PMPeter  
#13 Posted : 22 October 2016 15:57:29(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,273
Location: Port Moody, BC
Originally Posted by: aos Go to Quoted Post
Peter, I must admit that I am quite fastidious about track cleanliness. I have two consists running which permanently have the Marklin track cleaning cars attached. I also regularly use some kitchen roll folded and drag it along the tracks to pick up any excess oil. You will be amazed how dirty the kitchen roll gets, even on a so-called "clean" track. Give it a try, Don't forget your tyres as well. They may have already been contaminated and stretched. Therefore, they will just spin on the wheels. If that is the case, they will need replacing. Alan.


On a $600 locomotive fresh out of the box after just being released by Marklin why would the tires need replacing?

Prior to testing the locomotive I ran my LUX and KPF Zeller track cleaning consists and the track is as clean as it ever is. I believe the problem is with the bogie springs since as per my previous post just tightening them by a 1/4 turn of the screw allowed me to reduce the loco speed from 90% to approx. 40% before slippage starts.

I will clean the tires with some isopropyl alcohol and see if perhaps they had some manufacturers oil residue on them.

Another day and perhaps I can get reasonable operation out of this new purchase.
Offline PMPeter  
#14 Posted : 22 October 2016 20:14:09(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,273
Location: Port Moody, BC
Originally Posted by: dominator Go to Quoted Post
How much does it weigh.


It weighs 431 grams.
Offline PMPeter  
#15 Posted : 22 October 2016 21:07:31(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,273
Location: Port Moody, BC
Wheels cleaned, front bogie removed and reassembled and I can now pull one passenger wagon through my layout. Getting there.

Can someone explain to me the cryptic diagram on page 26 of the 37017 manual? Does it mean if you lose the circled spring you cannot run the locomotive through curves or straight track or does that x through the tracks refer to the installation of the detail parts?

Very confusing diagram and I'm not sure if the installation of the item 3 parts would make my problem better or worse.
Offline dominator  
#16 Posted : 22 October 2016 22:53:38(UTC)
dominator

New Zealand   
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 1,195
Location: Kerikeri
My 37015 pulls 4 Trix coaches easily around my R2/R1 curves at realistic speeds. Sometimes the wheels slip on starting, but this is realistic behavior for a loco with big wheels.

In terms of Pseudo physics, big wheel ought to have more contact with the rail. [ in real physics though it hardly makes a difference because theoretically, metal doesn't bend [ in this scale ] so wheel contact is the pin point contact between wheel and rail. Curve rail meets curves wheel so yo have a theoretical contact are the size if the sharp end of a pin. Put rubber tyres on then that's a different story.

I had a loco recently purchased that every now and again the front single axle bogie would detail. I had to remove the spring to bend more tension into it. Fixed that problem so that is something to be aware of.

Tightening the screw that holds the bogie to the loco may do nothing to ad or decrease tension [ don know the loco here so just guessing till i see a picture of the bogie. ] don't think that is your problem though.

I had another loco recently purchased the wheel spun. Didn't really figure out why, but by chance fixed the problem by truing up the angle of the slider under the loco. [ go figure ] (doesn't yours have the slider under the tender though, so that rules that out )
Thats all I know folks. weight facts to follow
Dereck
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Offline dominator  
#17 Posted : 22 October 2016 22:56:47(UTC)
dominator

New Zealand   
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 1,195
Location: Kerikeri
I AM ON HOLIDAY. HAVING A BREAK SO DECIDED TO WEIGH SOME OF MY LOCOS TO WORK OUT AXLE LOADINGS [ YEH NOTHING BETTER TO DO ] Crap caps locks again
Lets assume m, the main wheels carry the load of the loco, and spring loaded bogies carry none [ true but near enough ]
loco loc weight gms no of axles axle weight gms
3065 219 gms 4 55

3080 189 3 63

3147 301 4 75

DA 800 457 3 152 *

3000 203 3 67

F 800 717 3 239 *

3098 431 3 144 *

3756 700 b 6 117 #

37882 770 b 5 154 * #

3001 290 b 3 97

3053 537 6 90

33185 610 b 3 203 #

3075 410 b 4 102 #

37645 434 b 6 72 #

3085 555 b 3 185 * #

3003 320 b 3 106 #

empty 3084 box weighted 82 grams. # indicates weighed in box so estimated weight here [ haven't got that much time ] * indicates the older loco and hence heavier axle weight

attempted to display this like a n excell sheet. That didnt work.
Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä
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Offline RayF  
#18 Posted : 22 October 2016 23:15:07(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: dominator Go to Quoted Post


Quote:
My 37015 pulls 4 Trix coaches easily around my R2/R1 curves at realistic speeds. Sometimes the wheels slip on starting, but this is realistic behavior for a loco with big wheels.


In terms of Pseudo physics, big wheel ought to have more contact with the rail. [ in real physics though it hardly makes a difference because theoretically, metal doesn't bend [ in this scale ] so wheel contact is the pin point contact between wheel and rail. Curve rail meets curves wheel so yo have a theoretical contact are the size if the sharp end of a pin. Put rubber tyres on then that's a different story.

...

Dereck


To clarify my point:

Passenger locos with fewer but larger wheels (only 4 on the S2/6) have less adhesion than goods locos with more but smaller wheels. Apart from the increased number of wheels giving more contact with the track there is the "gearing" effect which gives each piston thrust on a large wheel more velocity but less torque at the rim.

The overall effect is that on the largest wheeled locos it is quite common for the wheels to lose traction at start-up, causing them to spin quickly for a couple of seconds before they "bite" the track and the loco pulls away.

My 37015 displays this behaviour, which is fun to watch, but once it is in motion it does not show wheel slip on tight curves or turnouts. I have no gradients so I can't comment on its performance in this respect.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline dominator  
#19 Posted : 22 October 2016 23:27:46(UTC)
dominator

New Zealand   
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 1,195
Location: Kerikeri
now the 37017 at 431 grams has a possible axle weight of 215 grams.

In the above measurements , it is inaccurate because the loco and tender were all weighed together.

DA 800 tender weights 75 gms and the class 23 tender weighs 71 gms.

In the above results, only the F 800 has a higher axle loading of 239 gms.


So in conclusion, I would have to say, axle loading is probably not the cause of the problem, so I would not add extra weight to the 37017.

Keep looking. You will find the problem. When you do. please let us know.

Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä
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Offline dickinsonj  
#20 Posted : 23 October 2016 02:17:05(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,676
Location: Crozet, Virginia
Originally Posted by: dominator Go to Quoted Post

So in conclusion, I would have to say, axle loading is probably not the cause of the problem, so I would not add extra weight to the 37017.

Keep looking. You will find the problem. When you do. please let us know.



I agree. My 37015 can be induced to slip some on startup if too much throttle is applied. If it didn't do that it would not be faithful to the prototype design, since wheel slip is inherent in steamer designs like this. Remember that the S 2/6 was built strictly for speed and it was never really successful in routine railroad usage. On a funny side note, in the US they called locos like that slippery girls. BigGrin And they weren't always steamers, since that behavior was common on some Alco diesel locos too.

I don't get the feeling though that this is the case for Peter and that he really is having a problem with his 37017. Mine is packed away and I can't weigh it right now, but I doubt that weight is the issue.

I hope that you can figure it out Peter and we would all benefit by learning from what you discover.
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
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Offline PMPeter  
#21 Posted : 23 October 2016 04:18:59(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,273
Location: Port Moody, BC
Well thank you all for your various comments. I have no slippage when starting, none on an incline, only at incline transitions and through switches. Here is what I discovered today.

a) Once I took the front bogie off and reduced the spring bend slightly and reassembled the front end with the screw tightened to its stop position, performance was improved greatly for the transition to an incline. I could get to relatively slow speeds before the wheels started slipping while approaching the 2% grade.

b) One incline transition still gave me some problem since it was close to a curved switch that has one track leading to a decline and the other leading to the incline. So I took Tom's (HO) recommendation and added shims to smooth out the transition as best as I could. Again this helped but not totally eliminated the slippage unless I am above 60% speed.

c) With these 2 changes I can now pull 3 coaches as long as I have a decent speed heading into the incline, even if it is a 1% grade.

d) I think I know what is happening on the spinning when the loco tries to go through a switch. The clip on slider appears to be faulty. Three times now when I lifted the loco off the track the slider fell off. It just does not seem to click into position. The last time it happened the slider actually got caught up in the switch, caused a short and when I lifted the loco it was sitting there. I'll look at it more closely tomorrow since all four tabs are there but only 3 seem to click in.

e) Lastly, not related to the slippage issue, this loco's sound cuts out when I decelerate. It comes back after about 10 seconds. Is that normal or did I just get a lemon of a locomotive?

Out of all of the locos I have ever bought, new or used, I have never had this amount of problems.

Perplexed and disappointed. If I wouldn't have bought it from Germany, it would be going back.

Peter
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Offline jlopez  
#22 Posted : 23 October 2016 08:40:49(UTC)
jlopez

United States   
Joined: 28/11/2004(UTC)
Posts: 143
Location: San Francisco
I have this locomotive as well. There is wheel slip when I start it but I kind of like it as it looks like a real engine starting up. The only issues I have is when it pulls coaches that have sliders for lighting. That tends to cause quite a bit of drag on the engine. Coaches with out sliders no issues.
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Offline RayF  
#23 Posted : 23 October 2016 12:37:36(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Quote:
Lastly, not related to the slippage issue, this loco's sound cuts out when I decelerate. It comes back after about 10 seconds. Is that normal or did I just get a lemon of a locomotive?


It's meant to do that. When you back off the throttle the chuffs aren't heard as the engine coasts along. This is how a real steam loco sounds. Once it's slowed to the speed you've set the throttle to the chuffs pick up again.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline dickinsonj  
#24 Posted : 23 October 2016 14:47:58(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,676
Location: Crozet, Virginia
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Quote:
Lastly, not related to the slippage issue, this loco's sound cuts out when I decelerate. It comes back after about 10 seconds. Is that normal or did I just get a lemon of a locomotive?


It's meant to do that. When you back off the throttle the chuffs aren't heard as the engine coasts along. This is how a real steam loco sounds. Once it's slowed to the speed you've set the throttle to the chuffs pick up again.


Ray is correct and that is how the operating sounds of my 37015 work as well. I found it odd at first, since none of my other steamers do that, but that is how a real steam loco actually operates.

If your slider is not moving properly through your turnouts that might be the main cause of the drive wheel slippage problem Peter. I would be careful with your 37017 until you sort out the situation with the slider. I caused a slider short with my clumsy hands on one of my locos and blew up the decoder board. That was an expensive lesson on why to cut layout power when taking things on and off of the track.
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
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Offline PMPeter  
#25 Posted : 23 October 2016 15:29:43(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,273
Location: Port Moody, BC
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Quote:
Lastly, not related to the slippage issue, this loco's sound cuts out when I decelerate. It comes back after about 10 seconds. Is that normal or did I just get a lemon of a locomotive?


It's meant to do that. When you back off the throttle the chuffs aren't heard as the engine coasts along. This is how a real steam loco sounds. Once it's slowed to the speed you've set the throttle to the chuffs pick up again.


OK that explains why in Rocrail control the sound stays off when the loco comes into a station. Rocrail has BBT braking which means that it decelerates the locomotives in chosen number of steps (14 by default) so each step change would turn/keep the decoder sound off and the sound only comes back when the loco reaches its final speed step before stopping. Sounds strange to have a silent loco coasting into a platform and chuffing starting just prior to the brake squeal. Is there a CV adjustment for that?
Offline dominator  
#26 Posted : 24 October 2016 03:56:14(UTC)
dominator

New Zealand   
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 1,195
Location: Kerikeri
As it was a slider issue which caused my wheel spin, I would say you have found the problem. Sounds like your LOCo has a faulty slider. pity you can photograph it as evidence and get Marklin to supply you a new one. Sliders aren't usually expensive so buy a new one and try it. Good to have spares.
Dereck
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Offline Angus  
#27 Posted : 24 October 2016 10:24:05(UTC)
Angus

South Africa   
Joined: 27/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 202
Location: Johannesburg
I recently acquired this beauty as well.

I have a temporary (c-Track) layout with no best practices as far as track laying is concerned. In the loco manual there is a diagram showing something to do with track transition, I could not understand it. But I gathered the loco wouldn't like drastic track changes.

Amazingly the loco pulls my King Ludwig coaches (3) with two additional wagons, one with a slider, up my inclines with out a problem. Yet on a flat where there is a slight dip in the track and on the approach to one of my turnouts, the loco does a little spinning session.
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Offline dominator  
#28 Posted : 26 October 2016 07:29:52(UTC)
dominator

New Zealand   
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 1,195
Location: Kerikeri
Angus, you need to read the training manual or watch the British Rail training film presented on this forum some time ago. Your railway boss should sack you for building a track with dips in it.

Dereck He He He.


Peter.
Same goes for you. That loco is pretty long and if your track has concave profile, the bogies will lift the weight off the driving wheels when you pass over that section. Some say use several shorter sections to get a nice gradual transition but in your case, you need to get it with the longer straights to make sure you do get a gradual transition.
My set up shown on video some time ago has two longish sections which are 3% , and I don't have a problem with any of my locos on it. I checked and found my transitions using 5106 straights are very gradual on the concave section, and they come off points, but a little sharper on the convex section at the top and that doesn't seem to create a problem.
Have you got a new slider yet or have you fixed your existing one?
Dereck
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Offline PMPeter  
#29 Posted : 26 October 2016 16:35:43(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,273
Location: Port Moody, BC
Originally Posted by: dominator Go to Quoted Post
Angus, you need to read the training manual or watch the British Rail training film presented on this forum some time ago. Your railway boss should sack you for building a track with dips in it.

Dereck He He He.


Peter.
Same goes for you. That loco is pretty long and if your track has concave profile, the bogies will lift the weight off the driving wheels when you pass over that section. Some say use several shorter sections to get a nice gradual transition but in your case, you need to get it with the longer straights to make sure you do get a gradual transition.
My set up shown on video some time ago has two longish sections which are 3% , and I don't have a problem with any of my locos on it. I checked and found my transitions using 5106 straights are very gradual on the concave section, and they come off points, but a little sharper on the convex section at the top and that doesn't seem to create a problem.
Have you got a new slider yet or have you fixed your existing one?
Dereck


No I don't have a new slider. I got informed by MBSL this morning that a new one will be mailed to me today. I should have it in 2 weeks.
Offline shuli1969  
#30 Posted : 04 June 2017 14:03:36(UTC)
shuli1969

Taiwan, Province Of China   
Joined: 12/03/2017(UTC)
Posts: 13
Location: T'ai-wan, Taipei
Originally Posted by: PMPeter Go to Quoted Post
My new Marklin 37017 S2/6 has arrived c/w white gloves as noted in the other thread regarding new purchases. There was a question posted in that thread whether anyone else is experiencing traction problems. Well I can confirm that I am having the same problem.

At the beginning of any incline the loco just stops and the big wheels just spin. The same happens in a transition curve on a flat level. My inclines are 2% and less so if this loco spins with no cars attached how will it ever pull any cars up a grade?

For the price I must say I am very upset to have such a basic issue since I will not be able to use it on my layout unless I can somehow add some weight. Has anyone solved this problem?

Peter

I have the same problem with my new Marklin 37017.
I am very disappointed with this product.

Offline river6109  
#31 Posted : 04 June 2017 15:53:54(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,635
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Originally Posted by: PMPeter Go to Quoted Post
Well thank you all for your various comments. I have no slippage when starting, none on an incline, only at incline transitions and through switches. Here is what I discovered today.

a) Once I took the front bogie off and reduced the spring bend slightly and reassembled the front end with the screw tightened to its stop position, performance was improved greatly for the transition to an incline. I could get to relatively slow speeds before the wheels started slipping while approaching the 2% grade.

b) One incline transition still gave me some problem since it was close to a curved switch that has one track leading to a decline and the other leading to the incline. So I took Tom's (HO) recommendation and added shims to smooth out the transition as best as I could. Again this helped but not totally eliminated the slippage unless I am above 60% speed.

c) With these 2 changes I can now pull 3 coaches as long as I have a decent speed heading into the incline, even if it is a 1% grade.

d) I think I know what is happening on the spinning when the loco tries to go through a switch. The clip on slider appears to be faulty. Three times now when I lifted the loco off the track the slider fell off. It just does not seem to click into position. The last time it happened the slider actually got caught up in the switch, caused a short and when I lifted the loco it was sitting there. I'll look at it more closely tomorrow since all four tabs are there but only 3 seem to click in.

e) Lastly, not related to the slippage issue, this loco's sound cuts out when I decelerate. It comes back after about 10 seconds. Is that normal or did I just get a lemon of a locomotive?

Out of all of the locos I have ever bought, new or used, I have never had this amount of problems.

Perplexed and disappointed. If I wouldn't have bought it from Germany, it would be going back.

Peter


Peter under a.) you've mentioned the front bogie, if you go up a hill and the rubber tyres are on the last driving wheel and it slips I would think its the rear bogie as well, so try to minimize the spring tension and see what happens. it looks like from what you've been telling us the loco is in midair but maybe not visible enough to say the wheels are up in the air. there was a problem with the BR 53 wouldn't go over a sleek K -track turnover, the way Märklin build the boiler attachment to the frame it was off centre and lifted up the rear wheel assembly.

the slider could have also an effect by slipping in curves, why can't you secure all 4 tabs ? they need to to be pressed in firmly

John



https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline PMPeter  
#32 Posted : 04 June 2017 16:01:07(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,273
Location: Port Moody, BC
John,

This was a response to an old thread. My post was back in October and once I got the replacement slider, my problem was solved. The original slider had defective tabs that would not click in. It would just come loose at turnouts and lift the loco.

Peter
Offline dickinsonj  
#33 Posted : 05 June 2017 02:00:01(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,676
Location: Crozet, Virginia
Originally Posted by: shuli1969 Go to Quoted Post

I have the same problem with my new Marklin 37017.
I am very disappointed with this product.

I have a 37015 and here is my experience.

When I was first running it on my layout I had a few extreme slipping events. On one occasion I was running multiple trains and I could hear it but I could not see it. It was in a hidden location and when I did find it, it was sitting there just slipping its wheels, having never moved at all. A few other times it slipped briefly when first starting but ran fine after that. I adjusted the slider to make sure it was properly seated and properly contacting the pukos. I also oiled all of the non-drive axles again, since they had not be oiled in several months. I decided to continue to run it but to watch it very carefully when first starting or on steep grades.

However from that point on I have never seen it slip at all, even briefly. I have run it for many hours without any slippage even when first starting. I think that this model will operate very well if everything is properly adjusted and lubricated. I have actually been surprised to find that it runs so well after the problems I experience when first running it.

Please not give up on such a handsome loco. Initially I believed that mine would always be traction challenged but that has not turned out to be case at all.

Good luck with yours.
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
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Offline applor  
#34 Posted : 05 June 2017 03:54:13(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,653
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Originally Posted by: dominator Go to Quoted Post
I heard someone say the latest P8 would not pull the skin off a rice pudding eh BD.


Yes but this is something I investigated and found the solution for (obscure posts in Stummi forums).

I posted on the forums here with the solution.

The problem with the S2/6 sounds very much the same as the P8 and so quite possible to fix (though of course one should not have to)

It was the front bogie when on corners it would make contact with the plastic frame, essentially putting the brakes on and preventing the loco moving.

https://www.marklin-user...raction-issue-resolution
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
Offline dominator  
#35 Posted : 05 June 2017 09:43:14(UTC)
dominator

New Zealand   
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 1,195
Location: Kerikeri
Thanks Peter for letting us know the pickup shoe was the problemConfused Confused . i WAS SURPRISED IT WAS THE PROBLEM ON MY p8 SO WAS PLEASED NOW TO LEARN i WAS NOT MISTAKEN IN MY DIAGNOSIS.
Here we go. caps lock probs again.,Cursing Cursing


Dereck
Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä
Offline shuli1969  
#36 Posted : 05 June 2017 14:08:08(UTC)
shuli1969

Taiwan, Province Of China   
Joined: 12/03/2017(UTC)
Posts: 13
Location: T'ai-wan, Taipei
Originally Posted by: PMPeter Go to Quoted Post
John,

This was a response to an old thread. My post was back in October and once I got the replacement slider, my problem was solved. The original slider had defective tabs that would not click in. It would just come loose at turnouts and lift the loco.

Peter


Hi Peter,
Would you let me know what kind of replacement slider ?
Is it the same as the original slider?
I checked the slider of 37017 , I can not find any problem.


Shuli.

Offline PMPeter  
#37 Posted : 05 June 2017 15:19:45(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,273
Location: Port Moody, BC
Originally Posted by: shuli1969 Go to Quoted Post

Hi Peter,
Would you let me know what kind of replacement slider ?
Is it the same as the original slider?
I checked the slider of 37017 , I can not find any problem.


Shuli.



Shuli,

It was a direct warranty replacement of the original slider. If your slider is firmly clicked in, then it is most likely not your problem. Check your boggies and make sure that they are installed properly.

As per my original posts I had 3 problems:

- the front boggie was not aligned properly
- the slider tabs were damaged not allowing it to stay in place
- I had 3 track grade transitions that needed to be made more gradual

In all 3 cases the driving wheels were lifted off of the track very slightly causing the slippage.

Peter

Offline Drongo  
#38 Posted : 21 January 2018 00:02:26(UTC)
Drongo

Australia   
Joined: 03/06/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,221
Location: Sydney, NSW
Hi everyone.
I wish I had read this thread before I purchased 2 of these locos. Both of mine have terrible slippage. I've sent one back to Marklin service with a video demonstrating the problem. Frank has replied and claimed that my slope was 6% when in fact it's only 2%, and he claims there is nothing wrong with the model and in fact he won't even test - he's sending it straight back.

Unfortunately for Frank, I have the other loco, so I ran some more tests, and this time I used the spirit level wagon trailing the loco. Here's the link to YouTube showing the spinning wheels. I'm beginning to lose faith in Marklin - this is NOT a cheap model - perhaps if they didn't supply the white gloves it would reduce the price.

I'd appreciate your opinions on the video.



Regards
Greg
Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
Offline PMPeter  
#39 Posted : 21 January 2018 01:03:13(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,273
Location: Port Moody, BC
I feel your pain. I was almost sick when I got mine and it wouldn't even make it around the layout once without slipping continuously. Even after all of my changes it is one of my most finicky locomotives, which is not what I expected for such a pricey item.

In your video your first slippage is where you go from the straight up a ramp. That transition is way too steep for this loc. You most likely will have to go back 2 pieces of track and gradually raise the grade with shims of wood or cardboard. Make sure you don't make the first shim too thick. Otherwise you will just transfer the problem to that location. I really can't tell from the video why you get the second slippage. However, since the loc seems to pick up on its own at that location you may just need a very small shim at that track joint. It took me about 3 days with approx. 20 different shim thicknesses and lengths until I had my transitions sorted out and the loco moving across them at a relatively slow speed.

Good luck.

Peter
Offline river6109  
#40 Posted : 21 January 2018 07:04:23(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,635
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Greg, I would check both bogies (front & rear) and see if the spring is set to high not letting the main driving wheels get a proper traction.

the same would be for other locos troubled experiences. may be the spring is set to high and it doesn't let the main wheels do their job by lifting up the whole chassis, most probably its a trail and error adjustment, you can't have it to low and the front bogies may come of the track at turnouts.
could I ask the question, how many rubber tyres are on these locos and are they in the back or front ?

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
Offline dickinsonj  
#41 Posted : 21 January 2018 15:10:02(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,676
Location: Crozet, Virginia
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
Greg, I would check both bogies (front & rear) and see if the spring is set to high not letting the main driving wheels get a proper traction.

John

This is good advice. When I was first running my 37015 there were times when it would slip on level track when first starting a train. All I did was oil the axles for both bogies and I have never seen that happen again. I did not expect such a minor action to make so much difference but there is no doubt that these locos are quite delicate in operation. Is it any wonder that there was only one of this design ever built? The dominate US loco for many years was a 4-4-0 and the difference for them was not having the rear bogie to take weight off of the drive axles. The S 2/6 should have very little pressure on that second bogie to maximize weight on the very large drivers, which are prone to slippage anyway.

The Märklin S 2/6 is like its prototype in many ways, including being traction challenged. Grade transitions need to be perfect for any loco with such a short driver wheelbase. Many real steam locos had severe wheel slippage issues and it is reasonable to expect models of them to behave similarly.

Good luck with yours Drongo. I can tell you that on well laid track my 37015 now performs very well and I am quite happy with it, so don't give up immediately.

Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
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Offline jvuye  
#42 Posted : 22 January 2018 22:18:59(UTC)
jvuye

Belgium   
Joined: 01/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 2,881
Location: South Western France
Originally Posted by: Drongo Go to Quoted Post
Hi everyone.
I wish I had read this thread before I purchased 2 of these locos. Both of mine have terrible slippage. I've sent one back to Marklin service with a video demonstrating the problem. Frank has replied and claimed that my slope was 6% when in fact it's only 2%, and he claims there is nothing wrong with the model and in fact he won't even test - he's sending it straight back.

Unfortunately for Frank, I have the other loco, so I ran some more tests, and this time I used the spirit level wagon trailing the loco. Here's the link to YouTube showing the spinning wheels. I'm beginning to lose faith in Marklin - this is NOT a cheap model - perhaps if they didn't supply the white gloves it would reduce the price.

I'd appreciate your opinions on the video.



Regards
Greg


From looking at the video, my suspicion is that the tender coupler tends to lift the rear of the engine.
Getting stuck in that S-curve out of the station is a telltale sign.
I strongly suspect there is not enough vertical "play" in the tender coupling .
And also maybe the spring on the rear lok bogie pushes the lok up a little too much, maybe it's not correctly seated or the spring is bend too mucH.
Could also be that the pick up shoe spring is pushing the tender up a bit.
All little things to check...Wink
My two cents
Jacques Vuye aka Dr.Eisenbahn
Once a vandal, learned to be better and had great success!
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Offline Drongo  
#43 Posted : 24 January 2018 09:38:08(UTC)
Drongo

Australia   
Joined: 03/06/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,221
Location: Sydney, NSW
Thanks fellas for your advice. Currently I'm in hospital getting rid of "Dickie Knee", his replacement is pretty painful, but the doctor says all will be good soon.

As for oiling the bogies or adjusting the springs, I have no idea about doing this. I've sent one loco back to Marklin and they refuse to do anything with the loco. In their opinion there's nothing wrong with the loco, and they've made the comment without even looking at the loco - just viewing the video. Why should I make the adjustments - if it's not working correctly, then Marklin should do the adjustments. Remember this is an expensive model with a 5 year warranty.

I'm not impressed with Marklin.

Regards
Greg
Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
Offline dominator  
#44 Posted : 24 January 2018 11:04:41(UTC)
dominator

New Zealand   
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 1,195
Location: Kerikeri
Send it back and buy a plastic model to take its place. It is a very nice looking ornament. No wonder they made only one of the real ones. The S 3-6 was a better investment and looks just as good.
Dereck
Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä
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Offline dickinsonj  
#45 Posted : 24 January 2018 13:44:27(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,676
Location: Crozet, Virginia
Originally Posted by: dominator Go to Quoted Post
Send it back and buy a plastic model to take its place. It is a very nice looking ornament. No wonder they made only one of the real ones. The S 3-6 was a better investment and looks just as good.
Dereck

The S 2/6 is definitely temperamental and as Dereck says, there is clearly a reason only one was ever made. BigGrin

It will run well though on the right track, but that must have smooth and gradual inclines and no pretty S curves to negotiate. I saw some horrible slipping in a video where it was pulling tinplate coaches with a slider on each coach and up a helix! Now that was a perfect storm for the poor thing and it slipped pretty much continuously.

If you can't provide it something like that to run on I agree with Dereck, it will just be a pretty ornament. I think of mine as a trackage tester because if it will run well on a section of track I must have laid it perfectly. Cool

Good luck with that knee Greg - that is a good fix when it is all healed but everyone I know who had that done said it hurt like hell at first.
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
Offline dominator  
#46 Posted : 24 January 2018 21:03:34(UTC)
dominator

New Zealand   
Joined: 20/01/2015(UTC)
Posts: 1,195
Location: Kerikeri
Theoretically, with fewer driving wheels, there should be more weight at point of contact on this loco. In nearly all the steam locos I have, all the weight is on the driving wheels, and the bogies are there for show.
With this loco, it seems the answer is to allow the bogies to rise higher into the chassis, so they take no effectual load of the engine. If that could be done, it might cure the problem. Get out your dremel guys or preferably send it back to Marklin for them to make a new chassis for the dammed things.

Marklin could add a driven tender behind the bloody thing, which is coupled to the attachment point of the rear bogie, so it doesn't push the back of the loco off the track.Flapper Flapper Flapper Flapper Flapper Flapper Flapper Flapper Flapper

Don't be suckers, if it s no good, ask for your money back. [ I would be happy with an equivalent voucher to buy another loco ].

We all make mistakes, its the good guys who put them right.

Get well quick Greg. I have heard it is painful. Some of my customers have had this operation, so i get first hand feed back. When going up steps, put your best foot forward, , when you are going down, leave it behind. A lady came in a week ago that had just had both knees done, and use a walking stick. When she went down the single step in our shop, she cried out in pain. Just as well she had that stick.

All the best.
Dereck
Northland. NZ REMEMBER 0228 for ä
Offline Drongo  
#47 Posted : 27 January 2018 10:26:34(UTC)
Drongo

Australia   
Joined: 03/06/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,221
Location: Sydney, NSW
Thanks fellas for the kind thoughts regarding the knee. All went well and now it's the rehab time which is more painful than the surgery. My legs are rediscovering muscles that I lost many years ago - it reminds me of football training . BigGrin BigGrin

Regrading the S2/6 loco, I understand your thoughts and suggestions on how I can improve its operation, however my point is that, Why should I carry out this trial and error investigation on a product that I've paid a lot of money for, and someone in Germany has been paid a bucket load of money to carry out this function. The train of thought here - is if the research & development department perform a miserable job on this expensive model, what sort of job are they doing on the cheaper models. I believe that Marklin management have lost the plot - they are not manufacturing the way they did, say, 10 years ago. I think they are producing products to sell and if they don't perform or last, then they don't care. After all, the owner is a toy manufacturer, and this mentality is undermining the Marklin brand. It's a real pity and if they don't pull up their sox soon, they maybe facing the demise of an old business.

I have written to Marklin about this topic, however they haven't replied and so I guess they know what they are doing, or they just don't care.

Regards
Greg (minus Dickie)
Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
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