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Offline clapcott  
#1 Posted : 30 September 2016 22:03:46(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Note: manual does not show a date or production/publication code or a Copyright - so may be pre-prod (leak)

The jury is still out - We would really need to play with a unit to ensure this works as described in this manual.
But at least it sets some expectations and shows what the screen flow is likely to look like

However, As usual, it actually poses more questions... especially of the "Were is ..." type

And I really do wish someone would spend some time on producing meaningful and comprehensive schematics for connectivity and the interconnection of components WHILE noting limitations where they exist.

Edited by user 01 October 2016 22:37:28(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Peter
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Offline Bigdaddynz  
#2 Posted : 30 September 2016 22:17:58(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
I think Peter has forgotten to include the download link.

Can be found here - look for 60216 and 60226

CS3 Manuals
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#3 Posted : 30 September 2016 22:28:20(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Manual looks pretty, but is in German so not much good for me.

At least with the CS3, you can attach your CS2 and CS1 remotely.

Cover.JPG

CS3+.JPG

CS3.JPG
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Offline steventrain  
#4 Posted : 01 October 2016 08:45:56(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,601
Location: United Kingdom
Any English?
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#5 Posted : 01 October 2016 10:29:13(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Not that I've seen.
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Offline siroljuk  
#6 Posted : 01 October 2016 12:05:21(UTC)
siroljuk

Finland   
Joined: 29/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 377
Hello everyone.BigGrin
I just downloaded the manual and started to translate it's interesting part, ROUTE.

As I did earlier, I am going to use Google translator, so results might be readable but not good.

I'll publish translation when it is ready.

Happy Training meanwhileBigGrin BigGrin
Regards
Jukka
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Offline siroljuk  
#7 Posted : 01 October 2016 16:30:47(UTC)
siroljuk

Finland   
Joined: 29/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 377
Blushing Blushing
Hello again.



It was not so easy to make this translation, because I don't have device yet. I will add and correct after I have the new CS3+ to use.

But anyway, you can see that it is different than old CS2 when you try to do routes. Layout section differs also very much.

I am eager to have new CS3+, I think that next winter is going to be nice time to study and learn and share new ways of model training with Märklin.
BigGrin BigGrin

Happy Training Everyone
Regards

Jukka

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Offline clapcott  
#8 Posted : 02 October 2016 03:03:15(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
venting some frustration ...
MyView_CSArchitecture

Statements like ....

Limitations of the 60226 Central Station
...... In addition, only the 60883 feedback module can be connected to this device....

... from the Operation sheet, really do not help






2016-10-09 Added CS3 via LAN
2017-01-02 Added 60145
2017-02-01 Updated 60883 to allow 32 S88s per bus (As per configuration screens of a CS3 itself)

Edited by user 02 March 2017 05:14:13(UTC)  | Reason: 2017-02-01

Peter
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Offline siroljuk  
#9 Posted : 02 October 2016 07:38:10(UTC)
siroljuk

Finland   
Joined: 29/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 377
Hi Peter.
Very useful picture, I'll put it on my wall.

Jukka
Offline siroljuk  
#10 Posted : 02 October 2016 12:29:04(UTC)
siroljuk

Finland   
Joined: 29/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 377
Hello everyone.
It is shiny weather here in FinlandBigGrin BigGrin
Well . . .Blushing Blushing
Here is another translation out of German Language CS3 manual:

Layout:


It is not real translation at all. But I think if I can understand it, certainly you can get all necessary information about how much CS3 differs from old CS2.
That was my target, because when the real device in in my hands, then I'll correct and add more information which is based on my experiences.
Of course, I assume that the Märklin people has translated ordinary manual into English before they start to deliver devices.

Have a nice time all of you
and

Happy Training

Regards

Jukka

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Offline Minok  
#11 Posted : 03 October 2016 22:13:58(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
That the CS3 is firmware update-able over the internet is good, so no need to find ones way to a far flung dealer outside of Germany, which seems to be problematic from reading some threads.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
Offline clapcott  
#12 Posted : 04 October 2016 02:10:42(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
That the CS3 is firmware update-able over the internet is good
This is to be expected . The CS2 has done this from very early on.

Quote:
... which seems to be problematic from reading some threads.
The majority of issues are with the users network connection and set up and not a CS ones. These issues wont change with the CS3


What is scary in my opinion in the ...

Mit gesetztem Haken prüft die CS3 regelmäßig, ob ein FirmwareUpdate verfügbar ist.
With the box is checked, the CS3 regularly checks whether a firmware update is available.

I really hope this is not set on by default !
Peter
Offline Minok  
#13 Posted : 04 October 2016 02:21:06(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post

What is scary in my opinion in the ...

Mit gesetztem Haken prüft die CS3 regelmäßig, ob ein FirmwareUpdate verfügbar ist.
With the box is checked, the CS3 regularly checks whether a firmware update is available.

I really hope this is not set on by default !



So long as un-checking it is sticky and, unlike Microsoft and Apple tend to do, lets the user determine when, how and even IF they want to get an update and is not 'reset' periodically to our annoyance, this should be fine.

I get why its scary. There's no telling if Märklin is any better than Apple and Microsoft in testing their updates before putting them out (although they have less variety of stuff and complexity to test against), so we don't want an requested push to brick a CS3.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
Offline clapcott  
#14 Posted : 04 October 2016 05:25:50(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
I get why its scary....


No . Updates happen ... usually not fast enough ...




What this signals is that Marklin or its service provider will be getting usage information from users.

It may start by just knowing the times the CS3 is powered on, but before long it will result in a sales popup with an online link to buy some tyres, because your favorite locomotive has run for a certain number of hours.
Peter
Offline klarinettmeister  
#15 Posted : 05 October 2016 22:29:06(UTC)
klarinettmeister

Sweden   
Joined: 13/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 798
Location: Kirseberg
Hi everybody!

When looking through the manual I see there´s a new feature that´s missing in The CS2. On the CS2 you can set-up different positions of S88-contacts (occupied or free) which makes up alot of complicated configurations for starting the route. The problem is that you can only use the timer functions; eg. a train will stop after 10 seconds if you´ve programmed it too, no matter if the train is in the correct position.

If I read correctly the CS3 can now use S88 inside the memory function so now the train will stop after 10 seconds after an S88-contact has been activated (if programmed so). If so this would be a huge advantage for a hidden staging yard. Am I right about the function or is it possible to use in the CS2?

"Im Ablauf selbst können wiederum weitere
Rückmeldekontakte aufgenommen werden
(z.B. S88-2, Bild oben), indem man sie in die
Zeitleiste zieht."
Offline Minok  
#16 Posted : 06 October 2016 00:25:24(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
I get why its scary....


No . Updates happen ... usually not fast enough ...

What this signals is that Marklin or its service provider will be getting usage information from users.

It may start by just knowing the times the CS3 is powered on, but before long it will result in a sales popup with an online link to buy some tyres, because your favorite locomotive has run for a certain number of hours.


That is pretty paranoid.. hope it doesn't happen.

Yes, Märklin would be able to get usage data when your CS3 checks for updates.
Would be easy enough to disable by not giving your CS3 internet access, if this is an issue and the CS3 doesn't let you have complete control over configuration for checks and what data gets sent.

If they started pushing advertising from the internet, that would be a rapid end to the CS3 as a device folks would use.
I can imagine it would be usefull for the CS3 to track total track usage of each loco and system and provide some maintenance reminders (replace tyres, or clean the rails) if those reminders make real sense and maybe are configurable (eg I know my area is cleaner, so I can set a longer reminder interval for track cleaning, or I know my garage by the dirt track needs a shorter reminder interval).

There are good and bad things that can be done.

I'm going to give Märklin the benefit of the doubt and trust (until they violate that trust) that they will use any data they collect to improve the products and company rather than force spam on us.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
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Offline klarinettmeister  
#17 Posted : 06 October 2016 02:47:20(UTC)
klarinettmeister

Sweden   
Joined: 13/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 798
Location: Kirseberg
BTW, I´m working on a english translation of the complete manual.
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Offline Goofy  
#18 Posted : 06 October 2016 11:36:34(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
In the manual it stand you can import data from the CS2 to the CS3.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline clapcott  
#19 Posted : 07 October 2016 01:24:49(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
In the manual it stand you can import data from the CS2 to the CS3.


Yes the title does say that, However it is rather an unusual usage or the term (in English translation anyway) when in actual fact it is doing a "Restore" into the CS3 using a CS2 backup file. A (full) restore usually implies the loss of existing data rather than an addition to it, which an import implies.

So. this must be seen as a "One Off" to be used on initial installation by those who do have a CS2 and want the CS3 to be the master/replacement



It is also unclear exactly what this restore offers over and above the (option) copy of data when setting up a slave CS.
Note: this was a function on the CS2 but is not documented on a CS3.

I find the absence of the CS2 configuration panels "suspicious" to say the least.
The small section that discusses CS3<>CS3 interconnect does not include CS2 and also makes use of the ip address which is not what I would expect as the units may not be networked. Also there is an issue in a DHCP environment.

Is there anyone on this forum who has been on one of early early Marklin CS3 seminars? And can comment about these sort of things?





Peter
Offline TEEWolf  
#20 Posted : 07 October 2016 04:51:12(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Originally Posted by: siroljuk Go to Quoted Post
Blushing Blushing
Hello again.



It was not so easy to make this translation, because I don't have device yet. I will add and correct after I have the new CS3+ to use.

But anyway, you can see that it is different than old CS2 when you try to do routes. Layout section differs also very much.

I am eager to have new CS3+, I think that next winter is going to be nice time to study and learn and share new ways of model training with Märklin.
BigGrin BigGrin

Happy Training Everyone
Regards

Jukka



Hi Jukka,

obviously you speak German. Did you read these 5 articles from the Märklin Magazin?

Digital Fahren

I have in mind (but I am not sure), that somewhere in one of these articles I read, that the CS 3 (I am waiting too - as you) has no internal galvanic seperation This has only the CS 3+. But I cannot finde the text again. Did you read anything about this topic? I only remember, since I may have read that the CS 3 has no galvanic seperation, I have decided to wait till the CS 3+ is available, even it will last another 3 months. But for me it is a very important point.

regards

Wolfgang





Offline TEEWolf  
#21 Posted : 07 October 2016 05:10:57(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: clapcott Go to Quoted Post

What is scary in my opinion in the ...

Mit gesetztem Haken prüft die CS3 regelmäßig, ob ein FirmwareUpdate verfügbar ist.
With the box is checked, the CS3 regularly checks whether a firmware update is available.

I really hope this is not set on by default !



So long as un-checking it is sticky and, unlike Microsoft and Apple tend to do, lets the user determine when, how and even IF they want to get an update and is not 'reset' periodically to our annoyance, this should be fine.

I get why its scary. There's no telling if Märklin is any better than Apple and Microsoft in testing their updates before putting them out (although they have less variety of stuff and complexity to test against), so we don't want an requested push to brick a CS3.


Märklin is not already so far as Microsoft or Apple. If the CS is connected to the internet, they send you only a message that a new update is available, but you have to start and update it by yourself.
Offline siroljuk  
#22 Posted : 07 October 2016 07:50:16(UTC)
siroljuk

Finland   
Joined: 29/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 377
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: siroljuk Go to Quoted Post
Blushing Blushing
Hello again.



It was not so easy to make this translation, because I don't have device yet. I will add and correct after I have the new CS3+ to use.

But anyway, you can see that it is different than old CS2 when you try to do routes. Layout section differs also very much.

I am eager to have new CS3+, I think that next winter is going to be nice time to study and learn and share new ways of model training with Märklin.
BigGrin BigGrin

Happy Training Everyone
Regards

Jukka



Hi Jukka,

obviously you speak German. Did you read these 5 articles from the Märklin Magazin?

Digital Fahren

I have in mind (but I am not sure), that somewhere in one of these articles I read, that the CS 3 (I am waiting too - as you) has no internal galvanic seperation This has only the CS 3+. But I cannot finde the text again. Did you read anything about this topic? I only remember, since I may have read that the CS 3 has no galvanic seperation, I have decided to wait till the CS 3+ is available, even it will last another 3 months. But for me it is a very important point.

regards

Wolfgang







Hello Wolfgang and others too.

No, I really do not speak German. My mother-language is Finnish. But as I'm very interested in Märklin Digital I do everything I can to translate German text to English. My translations are, as you know, done with Google, and I don't work very hard for doing good English. It is enough that I can understand. I have to say that Google translate German text better to English than in Finnish.

Yes I have red all possible documents for studying how new CS3 and CS3+ might do and what kind of differences there are compared to CS2.


Members in this forum are very nice and understanding people. Therefore I will publish all information I can get if I think someone will be interested.


I use LIPPE for buying all stuff for this hobby and they told me last week, that during this moth firs customer will receive their new CS3 devices. I hope that i belong to that group.ThumpUp ThumpUp

Happy Training

Regards

Jukka
Offline H0  
#23 Posted : 07 October 2016 08:29:14(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
Märklin is not already so far as Microsoft or Apple. If the CS is connected to the internet, they send you only a message that a new update is available, but you have to start and update it by yourself.
The CS3 can automatically show you a red dot on the screen when an update is available.
To check for updates, the CS3 will automatically contact the Märklin servers when it is connected to the Internet. Thus Märklin will have your IP address and all the information the CS3 sends with that request - whatever that may be.

You only get the update when you click "Install". but still they get some information automatically.
Microsoft collects a lot of information by default, in some cases you can turn the transmission off - but have to do it again after every upgrade.

I don't think that Märklin are as curious as Microsoft - but they could.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline klarinettmeister  
#24 Posted : 07 October 2016 10:57:08(UTC)
klarinettmeister

Sweden   
Joined: 13/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 798
Location: Kirseberg
I´ve read through all the 5 linked articles and cannot find any info regarding the galvanic isolation, but I think its possible one version has and ona hasn´t.

In the 3rd article they say that when you have an 60215 you only need a 60226; CS3, but if you have 60213 or 60214 you must ("müssen") use 60216; CS3 Plus.
In the first configuration (60215+60226) you can use L88 together with a seperate switching power supply 66361.
Offline sjlauritsen  
#25 Posted : 07 October 2016 17:51:26(UTC)
sjlauritsen

Denmark   
Joined: 18/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,081
Location: Denmark
About galvanic isolation, I have only seen this mentioned in the forums (here and on Stummi) it seems like guesswork to me. I read the German Märklin Magazin as well. Couldn't the thing about 60213 and 60214 refer to a limitation in those units and not the CS3 and the fact that the ports on the CS3 are different from those on the CS3 plus?
Søren from Denmark
Blog: https://railway.zone/ | Danish Model Railway Forum: https://baneforum.dk/
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Offline Minok  
#26 Posted : 07 October 2016 22:15:36(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
The first article mentions "Die Option, eine CS3 zur CS3 plus aufzurüsten, ist übrigens schon in Vorbereitung." - that is, a plan is being developed to allow upgrading from a CS3 to a CS3 Plus.

I'd expect that would be something a user could do - so a firmware upgrade (to turn on features), and a hardware module (needed to get the S88 upgrade) that gets installed in the bottom. I would not expect the upgrade to be a swapping out of the internal main boards, but may be it is. So thinking about what limited upgrade changes can happen, could one have galvanic isolation on the CS3 Plus and not the CS3, when one can (guessing here) upgrade the CS3 to a CS3 Plus with a simple kit? The galvanic isolation circuitry would need to be on the module that gets installed in the bottom, no?

But then article 2 says: "Nutzer der CS3 plus hingegen können auch eine CS2 mit der Hardwareversion 3.x oder früher einsetzen. Dies gilt aber nur, wenn keine weitere CS3 ins Gesamtsystem integriert wird. All diese Einschränkungen kommen nur dann zum Tragen, wenn die jeweiligen Endstufen dieser Geräte für die Versorgung verschiedener Versorgungsabschnitte auf der Anlage eingesetzt werden." Meaning: Users of the CS3 Plus can use a CS2 with older hardware versions 3.x and older [the CS3 required CS2's connected to have hardware version 4.x]. All of these restrictions only become relevant when the end stages of the devices are used to power various segments on the layout. So if you want to use a CS2 hw ver. 3.x to power a part of the layout, you must have the CS3 Plus to power the other part of the layout.

That, combined with the claim that the CS3 can be upgraded to a CS3 Plus would indicate some of the needed hardware would be on whatever gets added/swapped in the upgrade.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
Offline TEEWolf  
#27 Posted : 08 October 2016 04:21:04(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Thanks everybody for helping.

Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
That, combined with the claim that the CS 3 can be upgraded to a CS 3 Plus would indicate some of the needed hardware would be on whatever gets added/swapped in the upgrade.


I came to a similar conclusion as Minok. So I will invest directly in a CS 3+. But nevertheless, if somebody has only one electric circuit, he will be fully satisfied by a CS 3 and saving money. But there I do have already a track box 60113 with 2 MS 2 (60653) I have to be aware about this galvanic separation. But last night I found a solution which will help me. Here is the link and the best thing, you get the text in German as well as in English, French and Dutch.

LDT current circuit seperation module


Originally Posted by: sjlauritsen Go to Quoted Post
About galvanic isolation, I have only seen this mentioned in the forums (here and on Stummi) it seems like guesswork to me. I read the German Märklin Magazin as well. Couldn't the thing about 60213 and 60214 refer to a limitation in those units and not the CS 3 and the fact that the ports on the CS 3 are different from those on the CS 3 plus?


Yes, the ports are different between the CS 3 and CS 3+. A CS 3+ (60216) has one 6-pin connector input from the CAN-bus and 9 pin connector output to the CAN-bus, as well as one 7-pin Maerklin device connector.

The CS 3 (60226) has only one 9 pin connector output to the CAN-bus and no input device for the CAN-bus. Instead of this device the CS 3 60226 has a second Maerklin device connector.

And of course the CS 3 does not have the S 88 device at the bottom. But via the second 7-pin Maerklin device connector and the Link S 88 AC (60883) or Link S 88 DC (60882) (whatever current you use) you can plug in a S 88 (60881) module. So actually nobody may miss the S 88 device in the bottom as the 60216 has.

Via this Maerklin device you also can connect your control unit (6021) with the connect-6021 (60128) to a CS 3 or CS 3+.

For 85 € (Maerklin price - Link S 88 - 60883) you have your S 88 connection to the CS 3 too. This diminishes the price difference between the CS 3 and CS 3+ from 150 € to 65 €. Again, why two CS 3?

Today I learned a new word on BBC, which I like and want to use here for the first time:
gobbledygook.Laugh Love

Sjlauritsen
The problem between galvanic separation or not, is a security problem. If you do not have this separation and drive a train from one current circuit into another without a galvanic separation in the modules (like a CS), you might get a short circuit. This includes a very high risk of a fire on your model railroad and perhaps much more. Private MRRs regularly do not have a securing device with fuses, which you know e.g. from your current circuit in your apartment. What can happen you see here

Fire at the Miniatur Wunderland Hamburg

That is the reason, why I am very careful with this galvanic separation.

Electricity can be very dangerous.
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Offline sjlauritsen  
#28 Posted : 08 October 2016 07:57:44(UTC)
sjlauritsen

Denmark   
Joined: 18/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,081
Location: Denmark
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
The CS 3 (60226) has only one 9 pin connector output to the CAN-bus and no input device for the CAN-bus. Instead of this device the CS 3 60226 has a second Maerklin device connector.

I think you misunderstood me, I was not asking about the differences. My point was: I think this galvanic isolation debate seems to come from members of forums guessing on what the limitations might be. Suddenly, I see it mentioned as the truth. I see people recommending getting the CS3+ because of the galvanic isolation missing in the CS3. I have seen the lack of galvanic isolation mentioned as the reason that there can be only one CS3 in a chain of CS'es. We have no evidence - what so ever - that there even is an issue. We only know that the CS3 can only be connected once in a chain of CS'es.

Looking at what evidence we actually have. I think the CS3 cannot be connected in a chain of CS'es because it does not have a CAN-input port. Simple as that. It can only be the master. Thus no other CS3 can exist in the chain.

As Minok, I also noticed the article in MM about the conversion kit. From what I've read, I sort of concluded that this kit would consist of some plug and play replacement parts. E.g. a plug-in S88 module and a replacement for the plug that is different on the CS3. Since the two CS'es are almost identical anyway I would think that the parts that make them different are easily replaceable in a plug and play manner. This would also ease the assembly work at the factory and you could adjust production as you go.

Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
The problem between galvanic separation or not, is a security problem. If you do not have this separation and drive a train from one current circuit into another without a galvanic separation in the modules (like a CS), you might get a short circuit. This includes a very high risk of a fire on your model railroad and perhaps much more.

The reason for me questioning the whole galvanic isolation issue as guesswork is exactly for reasons like this. Why would someone in their right mind create a device like that in 2016? It was an issue with previous control stations (not only Märklin), why make the same mistake again? I think this is speculation and the CS3 has galvanic isolation, just as the CS3 Plus.
Søren from Denmark
Blog: https://railway.zone/ | Danish Model Railway Forum: https://baneforum.dk/
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Offline siroljuk  
#29 Posted : 08 October 2016 09:27:08(UTC)
siroljuk

Finland   
Joined: 29/10/2010(UTC)
Posts: 377
Good morning.BigGrin

I think that Märklin should publish more information about CS3 and CS3+. More info of circuit diagram and what really is behind connectors.

Many of us are capable to do various kind of electronic devices and as we have seen, devices has been done and connected to layouts.
Publishing more insider information would help hobbyists to make more individual kind layouts and functions. I think that such action is not a threat Märklin.

Blushing Blushing maybe I'm naive in thinking about that, but anyway it would be nice.BigGrin BigGrin.


Well . . . Let's wait for real devices and hopefully we will see and learn how they really works.

Happy Training
and feel good with your hobby.

Regards

Jukka
Offline Goofy  
#30 Posted : 08 October 2016 10:44:36(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,993
Some problem(s) may arise with the digital system such like CSx.
To many products hooked up together may cause contact problem.
I suggest you to use only one central station to control your layout.
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline kiwiAlan  
#31 Posted : 08 October 2016 22:34:06(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,082
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: siroljuk Go to Quoted Post


I think that Märklin should publish more information about CS3 and CS3+. More info of circuit diagram and what really is behind connectors.



You won't get this, it will be classed as trade secret, just like the software.

Offline clapcott  
#32 Posted : 08 October 2016 22:41:21(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: Minok Go to Quoted Post
The first article mentions "Die Option, eine CS3 zur CS3 plus aufzurüsten, ist übrigens schon in Vorbereitung." - that is, a plan is being developed to allow upgrading from a CS3 to a CS3 Plus.


Personally I consider letting this statement get published to be one of the very best examples of Marklin ineptitude

I think the issue here relates to what question was actually asked, and whether the the answer was transcribed too generically.
e.g. if the question only asked whether , "in the future will additional CS3s (60226) be able to be connected as extra throttles" then assumptions about S88 and Track power issues become immediately moot.


It simply will not happen , as grammatically written in the article.
- There will be no S88 port plug-in upgrade (There may be a bundled kit of an L88 at a special price)
- Any Hardware issues (that are speculative) about the track isolation will not be changed within the unit. An external adapter seems quite impractical

What I will consider as a possibility, is that a CS3(60226) may be able to connect as an extra throttle via a 9pin to 7pin adapter into a 60125 Terminal (may be a combined 60225 device).
At the extreme the 7 pin ports of the 60226 might be configured as a termination port and a 7 pin to 6 pin adapter provided. Again, impractical in the long run.


Taking a leaf from history, all this resonates with the 60121 which was announced and not delivered.

In the end we may end up simply with a Network (LAN/ethernet) connection (like the CS1->CS2) and TOTAL track isolation
This solution can already be seen in the users guide page 32
UserPostedImage
Comment: I am not sure if anytihing can be read into the usage of the term "CentralStations" under the GFP column and the image of a CS2 (Implying ALL Central Startions) compared with the specific "CS3" reference for the black icon under "LAN"
Peter
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Offline TEEWolf  
#33 Posted : 09 October 2016 02:08:06(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Some problem(s) may arise with the digital system such like CSx.
To many products hooked up together may cause contact problem.
I suggest you to use only one central station to control your layout.


and all others

I agree with Goofys proposel. But then you have to limit your layout to a small or midsize one.

By the way, I just read and saw in Maerklin's database, the CS 3+ was on stock for 1 day, Friday 7th of October. CS 3 still not seen, although delivery shall start in October too. Is it why we come closer to the X-mas days?

Anyway, more importtant is, that I read in the Stummi Forum (a German MNU), the following

"... Ich habe jetzt Information von Märklin bekommen. Die CS3 Nummer 60226 hat keine galvanische Trennung und kann darum nicht verwendet werden mit eine CS2 60213 und manche von 60214. Die CS3 60216 hat aber galvanische Trennung. ..."
Steamer01

in English:
"... I have now received information from Märklin.The CS3 number 60226 has no galvanic separation and therefore can not be used with a CS2 60213 and some of 60214. However, the CS3 60216 has galvanic separation ..."

I think this finally clears it up and end all speculations to the fact:

60226 CS 3 - no galvanic separation
60126 CS 3+ - with galvanic separation

OK, by this information I have my decision done. It will be a CS 3+.


In the TRIX catalogue for new items fall 2016 from page 106 onwards, you find an English decription of a CS 3.

TRIX CS 3 description
Offline clapcott  
#34 Posted : 09 October 2016 06:12:24(UTC)
clapcott

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,433
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post

in English:
"... I have now received information from Märklin.The CS3 number 60226 has no galvanic separation and therefore can not be used with a CS2 60213 and some of 60214. However, the CS3 60216 has galvanic separation ..."


Yet again we have a very specific and contextual statement morphing into a generic conclusion that is typical marketing FUD.

Because the concern about "galvanic isolation" relates to the track output, it may very well be that there is a limitation in this area. (boosted track sections cannot touch)

However jumping to the generic conclusion that a 60213 (or what ever) ".. can not be used ..." belittles the aspect that do not relate to the track.
- The older controllers may certainly be used as additional throttles
- They may also be used in sections of your layout that do not meet track-wise with that of another - e.g. a small isolated branch line diorama,
- They may similarly be implored to power the dedicated bus for accessories
- Their S88 inputs can still be utilized.
- The programming track can still provide configurations functions

Personally I would always advocate that, when you are looking to add power, you should first be looking to divest unnecessary load.
Specifically for accessories. In doing so you can in most cases eliminate the need to wire extra power feeds to your accessory controllers. The byproduct of this is a configuration that also allows you to control accessories with track power off (e.g. recovering from a short/derail)

Sure the CS3+ (60216) may be a "one stop shop", but in no way does that mean it is the only, cheapest or most versatile option.
Peter
Offline Minok  
#35 Posted : 09 October 2016 07:56:37(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Seems for someone who has nothing and foresees using S88 on a decent sized layout will find the CS3+ the one to get (assuming wanting one of the latest) while folks wit existing equipment already may well be best served with a CS3 (assuming they want to upgrade to new)
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
Offline MaerklinLife  
#36 Posted : 09 October 2016 08:18:59(UTC)
MaerklinLife


Joined: 03/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 490
Can someone please explain to me - in plain English - what all this interesting information is all about? What is the problem with "galvanic isolation"?
Offline H0  
#37 Posted : 09 October 2016 09:24:06(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: MaerklinLife Go to Quoted Post
What is the problem with "galvanic isolation"?
Those who bought a CS 60213 and a booster 60173 were required to insulate both centre rail and outer rails between CS section and booster section. A common ground between the CS2 output and the booster output was not allowed.
And AFAIK S88 does not work properly without common ground.

The recommendation for M track users was: get the old 6017 boosters.

The issue was solved with the 60174 booster which has galvanic insulation and allows a permanent common ground. You can swap old 60173 boosters for the new 60174 model.

One track output without galvanic insulation is no issue. There is no swap program for old CS2s 60213 and 60214 without galvanic insulation.


I think they burned a lot of cash with the 60173 swap program and lost a lot of trust with the issue in the first place.
I hope they do not make the same mistake again by selling a CS3 without galvanic insulation.

However this only is a problem if you want to use the internal booster for track output and have more than 1 unit without galvanic insulation.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline MaerklinLife  
#38 Posted : 09 October 2016 09:41:02(UTC)
MaerklinLife


Joined: 03/02/2016(UTC)
Posts: 490
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
I hope they do not make the same mistake again by selling a CS3 without galvanic insulation.
However this only is a problem if you want to use the internal booster for track output and have more than 1 unit without galvanic insulation.

This seems very confusing to me. Why introduce this circus once again? Does this mean that I would have to use a "gleiswippe" if I want to use the output of the CS3? I was under the impression that the CS3's output could be used as an extra booster. But perhaps this is only possible with the CS3 Plus?
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#39 Posted : 09 October 2016 10:29:22(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,661
Location: New Zealand
Originally Posted by: MaerklinLife Go to Quoted Post
I was under the impression that the CS3's output could be used as an extra booster.


You can, but there may be caveats if you already have a device without galvanic isolation (like my 60214 CS2) and the 60226 CS3 is confirmed to have no galvanic isolation.

Offline Danlake  
#40 Posted : 09 October 2016 11:56:00(UTC)
Danlake

New Zealand   
Joined: 03/08/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,571
Hi all,

Seems to be a lot of speculation regarding the new CS3Confused

For those eager for clarification now, maybe try and contact the guys from the Marklin Digital Club? By the way it's free to sign up and I have previously had good assistance from this service. Even if they don't have the answer straight away, they should be able to get from Marklin in Germany.

Also any feedback given to them can trickle back to headquarterBigGrin

I included contact details below:

Help with your Digital Questions: To contact Curtis and Rick for help with your Digital, technical and product related questions, or if you have questions about the articles in this newsletter:

Phone: 650-569-1318 Hours: 6:00am – 9:00pm PST. Monday through Friday.
E-mail: digital@marklin.com

Brgds Lasse
Digital 11m2 layout / C (M&K) tracks / Era IV / CS3 60226 / Train Controller Gold 9 with 4D sound. Mainly Danish and German Locomotives.
Offline steventrain  
#41 Posted : 09 October 2016 12:20:30(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,601
Location: United Kingdom
Any english edition yet? i will contact Marklin.
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
Offline TEEWolf  
#42 Posted : 09 October 2016 17:34:10(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Originally Posted by: steventrain Go to Quoted Post
Any english edition yet? i will contact Marklin.


I found a short description in English in the TRIX new item 2016 catalogue, page 104 continous. (But please insert 106 for the page at the Acrobat Viewer to jump to the page quickly).

TRIX new items 2016 catalogue

Offline jeehring  
#43 Posted : 09 October 2016 17:38:37(UTC)
jeehring


Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,786
Location: ,
hi everybody,
I wonder about a french edition for this new item (marklin ) ?
What about special voltage for N gauge for two-railers ?
Offline TEEWolf  
#44 Posted : 09 October 2016 18:24:45(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Originally Posted by: MaerklinLife Go to Quoted Post
Can someone please explain to me - in plain English - what all this interesting information is all about? What is the problem with "galvanic isolation"?


Short, quick answer first, please read here from Wikipedia

Galvanic Isolation

The good news is: if you have only one electric circuit and you always (but really always) stay with this one circuit, you never have to think about galvanic isolation.

I just translate and prepare a further post, what happened by Maerklin about this galvanic isolation in the past and what is different to the CS 3 today. And why it is with the old CS 60213 and a part of the CS 60214 not comparable with the CS 3 60226 today. Which also does not have a galavnic isolation. These older CS (but not old! - Maerklin named the 60213, 60214, 60215 all of them only Central Station, but affected are only the 60213 and a first lot of the 60214) are still in use by many users and they are concerned about the problems from Maerklin 6 years ago, which will return now. But I think, they have no reason to be concerned.

There it was before my relaunch with my hobby MRR, I hoped never to be bothered by this electrical problem galvanic isolation in the furture. It was an error. Maerklin forces me with its new model CS 3 60226 to be aware about it.
Offline TEEWolf  
#45 Posted : 09 October 2016 18:30:41(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Originally Posted by: jeehring Go to Quoted Post
hi everybody,
I wonder about a french edition for this new item (marklin ) ?
What about special voltage for N gauge for two-railers ?


See my link to TRIX I set up at post #42. TRIX offers this pdf-file also in French, etc. and TRIX is the address for these "two-railers".
Offline TEEWolf  
#46 Posted : 10 October 2016 00:29:03(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Hello everybody,

find as an attachment a PDF file in English with Maerklin's technical information about the so called “booster upgrade”.

Maerklin technical information in German

Translation into English


It is the official Maerklin technical information for the booster 60173 problem explained by H0 in his post #37. Very obvious the picture shows with the wiring diagrams for the booster 60173 in comparison to the booster 60174, what was the problem 6 years ago. It reflects a fundamental change in Maerklin's technical system for handling the so-called rail mass for the common return. This change in their philosophy about changing the common return conductor was cancelled by Maerklin, after obviously their change produced much more problems as it solved for Maerklin. One problem were plenty of malfunctions of the S88! Probably the reason why they cancelled this connection port at the CS 3 completely and a second reason to force you to use the L88 before you may attach your S88 devices.

This is the big difference to the situation today. Maerklin delivers only its new CS 3 in fact without a galvanic separation, but it remains with its technical system. A system we all know and use for many years. To use the CS 3 is as long no problem as long you follow the instructions of Maerklin. Then a CS 3 has to be always a dead end of the Maerklin CAN-bus. You also can never connect a CS 3 with a CS 60213 or the first lot of the CS 60214. If you have these CS you need always a new “CS 3 plus”. For me the “plus” stands now for “plus galvanic isolation”.

If you want to attach a S88 AC (60881), at the CS 3+ you connect directly with the CS 3+ (60216). For a CS 3 (60226) you first connect the L88 (60833) and then connect the S88 AC. (Compare the system architecture above in post #3 from BDNZ). In the German Stummi Community I read that the L88 has an internal galvanic separation. This makes sense. The 60226 has no S88 connector and no output for the CAN-bus, but therefore a 2nd Maerklin device for connecting e.g. a L88. So the galvanic separation is ensured. Not for the CS 3 itself, but for all other devices connected after the L88.

As a conclusion I say, the CS 3 - 60226 makes sense for Maerklin and perhaps for some users with a smaller layout of a model railroad, who want to use the mfx+ function. These are regularly beginners with a digital starter set. A MS 2 does not help, as I know by my personal experience and that is why I am waiting for a CS 3. It is a pity that Maerklin does not communicate all circumstances of its new CS 3 series. They really can be much more open to their customers.

TEEWolf
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Offline TEEWolf  
#47 Posted : 10 October 2016 01:22:08(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Originally Posted by: sjlauritsen Go to Quoted Post

I think you misunderstood me, I was not asking about the differences. My point was: I think this galvanic isolation debate seems to come from members of forums guessing on what the limitations might be. Suddenly, I see it mentioned as the truth. I see people recommending getting the CS3+ because of the galvanic isolation missing in the CS3. I have seen the lack of galvanic isolation mentioned as the reason that there can be only one CS3 in a chain of CS'es. We have no evidence - what so ever - that there even is an issue. We only know that the CS3 can only be connected once in a chain of CS'es.


Yes you are right, I misunderstood you. Nevertheless my research and the description of the connector devices helped me to clear up the situation. Now it is no longer an assumption with this galvanic isolation differences. This I found in a post in the German Stummi Community, where a member wrote, he had asked Maerklin directly and Maerklin has in his answer certified, that this difference is correct between a CS 3 and CS 3+ with the galvanic isolation. So this is now approved.


Quote:

Looking at what evidence we actually have. I think the CS3 cannot be connected in a chain of CS'es because it does not have a CAN-input port. Simple as that. It can only be the master. Thus no other CS3 can exist in the chain.

As Minok, I also noticed the article in MM about the conversion kit. From what I've read, I sort of concluded that this kit would consist of some plug and play replacement parts. E.g. a plug-in S88 module and a replacement for the plug that is different on the CS3. Since the two CS'es are almost identical anyway I would think that the parts that make them different are easily replaceable in a plug and play manner. This would also ease the assembly work at the factory and you could adjust production as you go.


That is the problem: the missing galvanic isolation the CS 3 is absolutely not "almost" identical with the CS 3+. There is a huge difference, as you wrote: no chain possible with a CS 3! Also see my post #46, please.

Quote:

The reason for me questioning the whole galvanic isolation issue as guesswork is exactly for reasons like this. Why would someone in their right mind create a device like that in 2016? It was an issue with previous control stations (not only Märklin), why make the same mistake again? I think this is speculation and the CS3 has galvanic isolation, just as the CS3 Plus.


This answer is easy: there are cost and sales reasons for marketing and selling of the product. On the one hand you can start with a low price for a starter set including a mfx+ loco. On the other hand you can sell a starter set with a CS 3+ in it, as a premium starter set on a much higher price. Sounds good for Maerklin - don't you think so?

In addition you can sell an extra L88 to all these people, who bought a CS 3 and now want to use a S88 module. More sales again, because this L88 costs at M prices 85 € in addition to your S88 for 55 € and not to forget the power supply for about 35 € (66361 sold out for the moment, so you have to take the 60822 for 50 €) which the L88 needs. A good basis for more sales - I think.


But as written in my post #46 Maerklin should this communicate to its existing customers and not trouble them with your reasonable question, "why is doing this Maerklin in 2016?" - six years after its disaster with the galvanic isolation.
Offline H0  
#48 Posted : 10 October 2016 08:31:40(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: MaerklinLife Go to Quoted Post
Does this mean that I would have to use a "gleiswippe" if I want to use the output of the CS3?
In the case of 60213 plus 60173 a centre-rail rocker (Gleiswippe) was not required - short bridging by passing trains was allowed.
The required separation of both the centre and outer rails leads to problems with M track and S88.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline sjlauritsen  
#49 Posted : 10 October 2016 08:47:22(UTC)
sjlauritsen

Denmark   
Joined: 18/08/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,081
Location: Denmark
Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
In the German Stummi Community I read that the L88 has an internal galvanic separation. This makes sense. The 60226 has no S88 connector and no output for the CAN-bus, but therefore a 2nd Maerklin device for connecting e.g. a L88. So the galvanic separation is ensured. Not for the CS 3 itself, but for all other devices connected after the L88.

Things makes sense to me now as well. I knew that the S88 LINK had galvanic isolation, which was why I could not see what the problem was. And I did not understand peoples concern. Märklin has now confirmed (or at least some one on Stummi said they did) that the CS3 does not have galvanic isolation, but in reality this is not really a problem as the isolation is in the S88 LINK.

Anyway with the S88 LINK in play, I really think this a non-issue or highly theoretical issue as far as I am concerned. Smile

Originally Posted by: TEEWolf Go to Quoted Post
In addition you can sell an extra L88 to all these people, who bought a CS 3 and now want to use a S88 module. More sales again, because this L88 costs at M prices 85 € in addition to your S88 for 55 € and not to forget the power supply for about 35 € (66361 sold out for the moment, so you have to take the 60822 for 50 €) which the L88 needs.

Which makes the price difference from a CS3 Plus to about 15€. There is no need to go for the CS3 if you want S88 feedback. Smile Btw. the 60822 is not a power source. It is basically just an overload protector. You still need the 66361 with the 60822.
Søren from Denmark
Blog: https://railway.zone/ | Danish Model Railway Forum: https://baneforum.dk/
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Offline Sankch  
#50 Posted : 10 October 2016 13:13:28(UTC)
Sankch


Joined: 12/10/2009(UTC)
Posts: 68
Location: ,
Hi Everyone,

On page 31 of the manual there is a diagram that shows a connection between the CS3(plus) and the Decoder Programmer.
UserPostedImage

How did you understand this?

I wonder if we can now simply plug the Decoder Programmer in the USB port of the CS3(plus) or, as it is under "network connection", the CS3(plus) can reach/read data of the Decoder Programmer plugged in the computer.

Confused

Kind regards

Sankch
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