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Offline Timnomads  
#1 Posted : 21 September 2016 09:19:49(UTC)
Timnomads

Switzerland   
Joined: 16/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 290
Location: Grandvaux - Lausanne - Switzerland
Hi All

bd6315650ca3b46a2e8095c7394b97f91434538702.jpg

Has anyone else had problems with the reliability and operation of the c track double slip switch 24624?

So far this year I have had to return SEVEN Cursing where the switch motors have stopped working. I am really pleased with the quality of the other Marklin kit. But these motors just seem to be so unreliable. All my normal points work fine its just the double switches.

it starts by one direction not working and then both fail. The double slip has no problem being switched by hand, but this is a pain when its at the other end of the layout.

Does anybody have the same problem, is there an easy solution for a non technophobe eg teflon spray ?

Tim

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Offline RayF  
#2 Posted : 21 September 2016 09:26:08(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
This is the same problem suffered by most of us with C-track turnout motors. The end contacts on the motors get oxidised and stop the current getting to the coils. There is a way of bypassing the contacts to fix the problem, but one must then be careful not to leave current running through the motor as it could burn out.

Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Offline Timnomads  
#3 Posted : 21 September 2016 09:58:35(UTC)
Timnomads

Switzerland   
Joined: 16/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 290
Location: Grandvaux - Lausanne - Switzerland
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
This is the same problem suffered by most of us with C-track turnout motors. The end contacts on the motors get oxidised and stop the current getting to the coils. There is a way of bypassing the contacts to fix the problem, but one must then be careful not to leave current running through the motor as it could burn out.




I could understand this if the points were old but the latest one is only about 2 months old and only used for about 8 hrs !
Online pederbc  
#4 Posted : 21 September 2016 10:42:13(UTC)
pederbc

Sweden   
Joined: 11/06/2007(UTC)
Posts: 180
Location: Eslöv, Sweden
Hi,

I have removed the endswitches on all my switch motors, which then works flawlessly. I only operate them digitally to minimize the risk of burning. Even on new ones I remove the endswitches immediately. As it can be a pain replacing a switch, I suggest to remove the endswitches and if possible, cut a hole underneath the switch so the motor can be replaced without having to break up the track. But to conclude: Since removing the endswitches I have't had a single failure.

/Peder
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Offline RayF  
#5 Posted : 21 September 2016 11:35:21(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: Timnomads Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
This is the same problem suffered by most of us with C-track turnout motors. The end contacts on the motors get oxidised and stop the current getting to the coils. There is a way of bypassing the contacts to fix the problem, but one must then be careful not to leave current running through the motor as it could burn out.




I could understand this if the points were old but the latest one is only about 2 months old and only used for about 8 hrs !


Funnily enough the less you use them the more problems you get!

Some motors never seem to exhibit this behaviour, but those which are going to fail can do so after a couple of months only

I will bypass the end contacts on any new motors that I buy, as I have endless problems with many of the ones I have installed on the layout.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by RayF
Offline hxmiesa  
#6 Posted : 21 September 2016 12:48:10(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,519
Location: Spain
Right. Its as simple as that. Even though I use K-track and not C-track; the problem is the end-cut-off-switches. Bridge them (maybe with a small solder-blob) and end of problem!
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
Offline petestra  
#7 Posted : 21 September 2016 13:18:34(UTC)
petestra

United States   
Joined: 27/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 5,824
Location: Leesburg,VA.USA
I have done what Ray does to most of my C-Turnouts but some are still OK and I have done nothing to them. Very strange. Peter Mellow
Offline Timnomads  
#8 Posted : 21 September 2016 13:37:18(UTC)
Timnomads

Switzerland   
Joined: 16/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 290
Location: Grandvaux - Lausanne - Switzerland
Originally Posted by: petestra Go to Quoted Post
I have done what Ray does to most of my C-Turnouts but some are still OK and I have done nothing to them. Very strange. Peter Mellow


Is there a youtube of how this is done - for us non experts
Offline baggio  
#9 Posted : 21 September 2016 14:07:18(UTC)
baggio

Canada   
Joined: 21/09/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Toronto
Originally Posted by: pederbc Go to Quoted Post
Since removing the endswitches I have't had a single failure.


What exactly have you done?

Sorry, I don't understand. Sad Blushing

Does this problem mean we should really stick to manual turnouts?

I mean, these motorized turnouts cost an arm and a leg and if they don't work properly, then... Confused
Offline Carim  
#10 Posted : 21 September 2016 14:27:18(UTC)
Carim

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 649
Location: London
Originally Posted by: Timnomads Go to Quoted Post


Is there a youtube of how this is done - for us non experts


Yes:



Carim
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Offline MikeR  
#11 Posted : 21 September 2016 14:40:17(UTC)
MikeR

United States   
Joined: 26/08/2012(UTC)
Posts: 263
Location: Denver
Originally Posted by: Timnomads Go to Quoted Post

Is there a youtube of how this is done - for us non experts



Here is the 74490 video link. Click on the link below.

74490 video link
Mike
Digital - C track with CS2 and Railroad&Co TrainController; feedback using LocoIO via a Locobuffer
Analog - M track with solid centre rail (after C track layout is complete)
Collect all Eras - especially Crocodiles
Member of ETE
Previously a member of the Marklin Modellers' Group Johannesburg
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Offline Timnomads  
#12 Posted : 21 September 2016 16:24:40(UTC)
Timnomads

Switzerland   
Joined: 16/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 290
Location: Grandvaux - Lausanne - Switzerland
Originally Posted by: MikeR Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Timnomads Go to Quoted Post

Is there a youtube of how this is done - for us non experts



Here is the 74490 video link. Click on the link below.

74490 video link


Thx I shall try this with all future problems, it looks idiot proof BigGrin

Offline Minok  
#13 Posted : 21 September 2016 21:34:21(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Another option is to rig up servo controls for the turnouts, but then thats more electronics needed to drive the servos (non Märklin gear). but once it is running, pretty much failure-proof.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
Offline Jabez  
#14 Posted : 22 September 2016 00:01:34(UTC)
Jabez

Belgium   
Joined: 30/08/2016(UTC)
Posts: 636
Location: Brussels
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post

I mean, these motorized turnouts cost an arm and a leg and if they don't work properly, then... Confused

I'm just a newcomer to modern Märklin equipment as I get into the hobby again. But everywhere I seem to read of these problems, apparently of long standing, with Märklin turnout motors.
Since childhood I have always associated the name Märklin with reliability. But this ongoing and uncorrected problem with such basic MMR equipment as turnout motors shakes my faith more than a bit.

I heard that lonesome whistle blow. Hank Williams
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Offline TEEWolf  
#15 Posted : 23 September 2016 02:19:25(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Originally Posted by: Timnomads Go to Quoted Post
Hi All

Has anyone else had problems with the reliability and operation of the c track double slip switch 24624?

So far this year I have had to return SEVEN Cursing where the switch motors have stopped working. I am really pleased with the quality of the other Marklin kit. But these motors just seem to be so unreliable. All my normal points work fine its just the double switches.

it starts by one direction not working and then both fail. The double slip has no problem being switched by hand, but this is a pain when its at the other end of the layout.

Does anybody have the same problem, is there an easy solution for a non technophobe eg teflon spray ?

Tim



Hi Tim,

you are from Switzerland, perhaps this link to "Zugkraft Stucki, CH" helps you, because it is in German written.

Märklin Weichenantrieb (railway switch drive)

Martin Stucki also describes a solution of this Märklin problem, because even Märklin's solution shall not yet work properly.

regards

Wolfgang
Offline applor  
#16 Posted : 23 September 2016 06:43:28(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,653
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Originally Posted by: Jabez Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post

I mean, these motorized turnouts cost an arm and a leg and if they don't work properly, then... Confused

I'm just a newcomer to modern Märklin equipment as I get into the hobby again. But everywhere I seem to read of these problems, apparently of long standing, with Märklin turnout motors.
Since childhood I have always associated the name Märklin with reliability. But this ongoing and uncorrected problem with such basic MMR equipment as turnout motors shakes my faith more than a bit.



It's because they are still making their equipment backwards compatible with analogue.
If everyone ran digital then the limit switches would not be required and we would not have this problem.
As others have said, if you bridge the limiters then it should run forever and a day.
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
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Offline TEEWolf  
#17 Posted : 23 September 2016 18:29:37(UTC)
TEEWolf


Joined: 01/06/2016(UTC)
Posts: 2,465
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Jabez Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: baggio Go to Quoted Post

I mean, these motorized turnouts cost an arm and a leg and if they don't work properly, then... Confused

I'm just a newcomer to modern Märklin equipment as I get into the hobby again. But everywhere I seem to read of these problems, apparently of long standing, with Märklin turnout motors.
Since childhood I have always associated the name Märklin with reliability. But this ongoing and uncorrected problem with such basic MMR equipment as turnout motors shakes my faith more than a bit.



It's because they are still making their equipment backwards compatible with analogue.
If everyone ran digital then the limit switches would not be required and we would not have this problem.
As others have said, if you bridge the limiters then it should run forever and a day.



I agree with applor absolutely. But what annoys me, that Maerklin does not open communicate this. Cursing Why not? Confused

I think everybody will then accept the problems, which are still there with the digital system. And probably open minded to help solving this problems with Maerklin together. Because this digital system is really a good challenge, but also a great chance and ability for the future of a model railway, coming much closer to the original standards. This brings the fun and pleasure to me. Love
Offline Minok  
#18 Posted : 23 September 2016 22:32:50(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
There was a possibility to solve this in how the digital decoders connect to the switches. They could have designed the switch electrics such that they can know if they are being driven from a digital decoder (using pins on the decoder-swith plug/socket) - and in that case (and only that case) the switch would be electrically operating in a mode that is rock solid for digital operation and doesn't support analog operation. Eg, the switch could get a signal from the decoder plug that tells it its a digital decoder, and it auto-disables the mini switches that are causing the problems and more reliably drives the switch in digital mode.

With such a decoder/plug/keying solution it would prevent the analog operations usage of the same switch part form running without the extent-switches needed to prevent coil burn-out.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
Offline RayF  
#19 Posted : 26 September 2016 10:25:01(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
I use my turnouts with analogue switches, and I see no reason why the end cut-off switches are needed as long as they are correctly wired to the control box and that control box has the right push-to-make switches. The current will only be present for as long as you have your finger on the button, and that will only be for a couple of seconds at most. I'm sure the motors will not overheat in that short space of time.

The uncouplers are operated in the same way and do not have these cut-off switches. I've never heard of one burning up in normal operation.

Some of the older blue control boxes sometimes stick on, but the buzzing of the turnout motor will draw your attention to it. Ideally these boxes should be replaced with the newer type if they start to stick anyway.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by RayF
Offline hxmiesa  
#20 Posted : 26 September 2016 12:52:05(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,519
Location: Spain
Originally Posted by: Jabez Go to Quoted Post
Since childhood I have always associated the name Märklin with reliability. But this ongoing and uncorrected problem with such basic MMR equipment as turnout motors shakes my faith more than a bit.

Feel free to give up old faith in favour of modern facts ;-)
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
Offline hxmiesa  
#21 Posted : 26 September 2016 13:01:38(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,519
Location: Spain
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
I use my turnouts with analogue switches, and I see no reason why the end cut-off switches are needed as long as they are correctly wired to the control box and that control box has the right push-to-make switches. The current will only be present for as long as you have your finger on the button, and that will only be for a couple of seconds at most. I'm sure the motors will not overheat in that short space of time.

I agree with you, but just want to add that in "the old days", we often used contact-tracks to activate switches and signals. (I even made systems using the uncoupler tracks... ;-) -and that these swithces often failed and closed the contact "permanently". The same could happen if a puko-wiper came to a halt just on top of on of these contacts. SO it oftenh happened that the contact was activated through a loooong time!
Yet, as you state, I never had any problem with the relays burning out. So, the quality today is... different!
If they could make them then to withstand 16Vac, sure they could design the coils to withstand 18-21V today. But they have decided NOT to do that.

Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
Offline H0  
#22 Posted : 26 September 2016 22:21:08(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,254
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
I use my turnouts with analogue switches, and I see no reason why the end cut-off switches are needed as long as they are correctly wired to the control box and that control box has the right push-to-make switches.
You need the cut-off switches in the turnouts if you have a control box with LEDs - or the LEDs will be always on and therefore meaningless.
With bridged cut-off switches you have no reason to get control boxes with LEDs.
Control boxes without LEDs can also be used when the cut-off switches are operational.

There are turnout decoders with feedback - those also require the cut-off switches to be operational.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline Timnomads  
#23 Posted : 27 September 2016 13:06:14(UTC)
Timnomads

Switzerland   
Joined: 16/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 290
Location: Grandvaux - Lausanne - Switzerland
And the next problem,

On one of my double switches, the point does not completely close, there is gap when I set the point to curve where the moving part does not end up flush to the static rail. See red :-

cross-red ink.jpg

I am not sure what to do to fix this. The effect is the train derails as various bogies go straight and others make the curve.

Does Marklin read this site, I hope so. I would happily give my time to fix these problems. The points are expensive so you
have to make a high quality product, these fall along way short of that.Cursing

Tim

Offline RayF  
#24 Posted : 27 September 2016 13:16:30(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,838
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Originally Posted by: Timnomads Go to Quoted Post
And the next problem,

On one of my double switches, the point does not completely close, there is gap when I set the point to curve where the moving part does not end up flush to the static rail. See red :-

cross-red ink.jpg

I am not sure what to do to fix this. The effect is the train derails as various bogies go straight and others make the curve.

Does Marklin read this site, I hope so. I would happily give my time to fix these problems. The points are expensive so you
have to make a high quality product, these fall along way short of that.Cursing

Tim



Hi Tim,

Has this always been the case or did it start doing this at some point after being used?

I've found that sometimes a bit of ballast or some other foreign object gets trapped in the mechanism preventing the blades from going all the way over. Use the hand lever to set the point all the way to the affected side and then see if you can see what is preventing the blades from closing.

Try using your finger to pull it back against the tension of the spring. Does the spring try to put the blades back? Is there sufficient tension on that spring? Is something stopping the blade physically?

Sometimes the action of the turnout is compromised because of a twist in the track. If you have it screwed down try to release the screws and see if you still have the problem.

Hope this helps.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by RayF
Offline Timnomads  
#25 Posted : 27 September 2016 13:34:23(UTC)
Timnomads

Switzerland   
Joined: 16/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 290
Location: Grandvaux - Lausanne - Switzerland
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Timnomads Go to Quoted Post
And the next problem,

On one of my double switches, the point does not completely close, there is gap when I set the point to curve where the moving part does not end up flush to the static rail. See red :-

cross-red ink.jpg

I am not sure what to do to fix this. The effect is the train derails as various bogies go straight and others make the curve.

Does Marklin read this site, I hope so. I would happily give my time to fix these problems. The points are expensive so you
have to make a high quality product, these fall along way short of that.Cursing

Tim



Hi Tim,

Has this always been the case or did it start doing this at some point after being used?

I've found that sometimes a bit of ballast or some other foreign object gets trapped in the mechanism preventing the blades from going all the way over. Use the hand lever to set the point all the way to the affected side and then see if you can see what is preventing the blades from closing.

Try using your finger to pull it back against the tension of the spring. Does the spring try to put the blades back? Is there sufficient tension on that spring? Is something stopping the blade physically?

Sometimes the action of the turnout is compromised because of a twist in the track. If you have it screwed down try to release the screws and see if you still have the problem.

Hope this helps.



Thanks Ray, I will have a look tonight.
Offline Timnomads  
#26 Posted : 28 September 2016 08:11:30(UTC)
Timnomads

Switzerland   
Joined: 16/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 290
Location: Grandvaux - Lausanne - Switzerland
Originally Posted by: Timnomads Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: RayF Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Timnomads Go to Quoted Post
And the next problem,

On one of my double switches, the point does not completely close, there is gap when I set the point to curve where the moving part does not end up flush to the static rail. See red :-

cross-red ink.jpg

I am not sure what to do to fix this. The effect is the train derails as various bogies go straight and others make the curve.

Does Marklin read this site, I hope so. I would happily give my time to fix these problems. The points are expensive so you
have to make a high quality product, these fall along way short of that.Cursing

Tim



Hi Tim,

Has this always been the case or did it start doing this at some point after being used?

I've found that sometimes a bit of ballast or some other foreign object gets trapped in the mechanism preventing the blades from going all the way over. Use the hand lever to set the point all the way to the affected side and then see if you can see what is preventing the blades from closing.

Try using your finger to pull it back against the tension of the spring. Does the spring try to put the blades back? Is there sufficient tension on that spring? Is something stopping the blade physically?

Sometimes the action of the turnout is compromised because of a twist in the track. If you have it screwed down try to release the screws and see if you still have the problem.

Hope this helps.



Thanks Ray, I will have a look tonight.


Hi, actually removed the switch yesterday and found a wire fom the decoder was catching the point mechanism, I relocated this wire and a I now hope problem is solved. Thanks Ray
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by Timnomads
Offline Minok  
#27 Posted : 28 September 2016 20:37:52(UTC)
Minok

United States   
Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,310
Location: Washington, Pacific Northwest
Always good to secure the wiring in some way.
Toys of tin and wood rule!
---
My Layout Thread on marklin-users.net: InterCity 1-3-4
My YouTube Channel:
https://youtube.com/@intercity134
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