Lock it big guy!

Now someone buy the darn thing and test it!


Dr Dirt

The topic is clearly titled "2014 item 37923 will have 3-pole again".

The way that Steventrain presented his discussion was in two statements

1. The response he got from Marklin on what type of motor was fitted to the 37923
2. The fact that he intended not to buy that model.

He didn't offer any opinion; he didn't link those statements together.

Those posters that don't want to discuss 3-pole motors and/or the 37923 model can choose not to read these posts and go and read something else.

Ray,
I agree with you that the 5-star symbol never actually meant 5-pole.... at least in description...

As I wrote above, I think the symbol was originally meant to highlight that the model has early Digital system -- and the 5-star itself is related to the fact that most of Marklin models at the time, were DCM 5-polers. You can check models like 37880 or 37572.
I think that symbol also act to differentiate that the DELTA models that were sold at the time was 3-poler w/reversing unit.

For most people who are not yet well-stuffed with Marklin jargons, and descriptions,
it will only be natural for them to assume the 5-star symbol equals 5-poler DCM.

Besides, the current 5-star symbol has several redundant points in description, largely made irrelevant due to the introduction of FX and MFX symbol:

• Maximum speed and acceleration/delay are adjustable.
  
• One controllable auxiliary function, when the locomotive is being run in Digital system
  

Sounds very 1990s.....



Locos with bell-shaped armature, and the venerable DCM 5-polers probably deserve to be considered into 5-star treatment.
Models with Faulhaber/Maxxon/Althonix motors are competitive to SDS in refinement (SDS is still a tad better, IMO),
whereas DCM is always widely renown for longetivity, superior pulling power, and represent the Tradition philosophy of Marklin.

Now the new 3-poler only wins vs both types motor in one thing only --- cheaper, and not much else.
Otherwise, it is by default, inferior to both types of motor.

Hence, we're back to the original argument ===> 5-star symbol to be put on the 3-poler-standard motor is misleading.

What about a new 3-star symbol?
That seemed more appropriate for every model with the new motor, Marklin's newest inaguruated bride.

Like the standard hotel rating,
it should represent better value for money (For Marklin, but not for us, since RRP remains the same),
less number of available amenities (less number of poles),
and probably also not as caretaking service from management as you would expect from a 5-star hotel...
(Questionable reliability, questionable stock in the warehouse, likely to be replaced if customers avoid it)..

Wrong!
The 5 star symbol was for the 5 pole motor in serie 35..!

By the way about model BR41 with 3 pole motor...i´m glad that Steven did present good information,so others member knows the truth about motor in the BR41.

HI Folks,

Keep bad mouthing that BR 41 and soon I will be able to afford one since Dealers will sell them at rock bottom Prices.

And I am sure I will be very happy with that Purchase.

P.S. Has anyone here have one of these Locomotives or are you all just speculating


Martin

I don't know which decoder the BR 41 does have.
I don't know which motor the BR 41 does have.
And most important: I don't know how good they work together.

I bought some Märklin lemons in the last two years and they were bad for my happiness. I play it safe with my 2014 purchases.

It's one step forward that they admit the loco has a three-pole motor.
OTOH they didn't admit decoder problems publicly nor did they announce recent decoder improvements recently.

I'm looking forward to in-depth reviews of the new BR 41 from happy owners. No irony or sarcasm intended.
I really hope that all buyers of this loco will be happy with it. I just don't have the confidence to buy it myself.

I have bought locos with 3-pole motor last year and I bought one loco with 3-pole motor this year. No problem if the loco runs well. I'm talking about locos from HAG and Piko ...

I buy what I consider good value for my money - just like anybody else.

Tom has tested several lokos, published the raw data and statistics based on that data. If you decide these are half true or not true at all, then there is not much more to discuss. I do not know Tom personally, but I have no reason to not believe him. I can not point to any one situation where he intentionally or unintentionally mislead me. He has corrected mistakes I have posted and I am glad for the redirect. I only want accurate information published here. You may not agree with his motives or his method of presentation, I sometimes do not, but I challenge you to show me an instance when his facts were not correct.

Hi all,
A couple of questions if you don't mind,...

1) Who makes these motors?
2) Is this a marketing ploy by the new owners?
3) Will these motors be used by Trix?

So many questions,so little time,....

Dr Dirt

Einstein describes insanity as doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. These are the same three pole motors we saw introduced last year. They are controlled by the same decoders we saw last year. Why should I expect different results when we have the same motors and decoders? The only difference is the loko it will be installed in. Did I miss the announcement describing new mechanics that improve the running characteristics of motors and decoders we are already familiar with?

When these run like crap, should I say "Oh well, next year the same decoders and motors will be better"? Please tell me what I am missing that is different from last year? Don't tell me I am wrong, tell me why I am wrong and why this will be better? Why should I gamble my money on a horse who's pedigree and track record I know all to well?

That reminds me of that notice that Marklin delivered to their dealers some time ago...
It was posted here.

And here's what's been stated from Marklin:

"sufficient time to sell through in the marketplace."

Instead of stating, "... continually improve our quality standards to improve our market position."

Is there any previous release of the new BR41? -- Yes, this is an existing product. But the previous release has bell-shaped armature motor.

Did Marklin actually explained that the motor change to 3-pole can motor is to improve the quality of their model? -- No.

Did Marklin already put 3-pole motor quietly in a number of 2013 items? -- Yes. No explanation ever given.

Did they state it in the product description that it is a 3-poler? -- No.

Is there anything stated in the Marklin New Item brochure that the 3-pole can motor is their new standard motor? -- No.

Is the new standard motor perform better compared to 5-pole DCM, bell-shaped armature, or SDS?

--- I think given the above facts, it is highly unlikely, but I like to see more reviews / positive posts that praise this new 3-pole standard motor, and then prove our skeptical voices wrong.

Hi Martin, I must have misunderstood you then.



But we do know. Steven copied an answer from Marklin into the first post. He has titled the thread as "2014 item 37924 BR41 will have 3-pole again." The only three pole motor I am aware that is currently in Marklin's product line is the same one we started to see last year. This is now described by Marklin as their "standard" motor. Again this info is from Steven's post #1.

Maybe threads affected by the multipole syndrome should have a special mark in the heading...

Yes, the list price is impressive, but in big quantities they are much cheaper I am sure.

M can always use 2 standard motors and the loco will have 6 poles...

Hi,

A bit offtopic, but I wanted to write this here:

My newer locos biggest running quality problems recently have been with two SDS motored Swiss Crocodiles 29680 = 39563 from 2007 (Märklin Mfx but only whistle sound) and 39565 from 2012 (Märklin full sounds Mfx) = both equipped with Märklin's original Mfx decoders. They run jerky. Also the other locomotive from that same starter set 29680 runs jerky (Ae 6/6 from 2007) equipped with Märklin's original Mfx full sound decoder and 5-pole DCM motor.

My older C-Sinus 39561 Crocodile (2001?) runs really smoothly (without Mfx) aswell as my newest black Crocodile 37567 (2013) with two motors and again Märklin Mfx full sound decoder. So there is quite a lot of variation in motor type and decoder type in these locomotives which runs jerky or not like you can see ...

My 2013 Märklin weathered CFL 5609 model 37560 runs very good with it's original Märklin Mfx full sound decoder from the factory. I have not opened it so I don't know about the motor type, but I assume it is a traditional coffee grinder 5-pole DCM?

I want to say there are many models which I have with either can motors, 5-pole DCM motors or SDS motors where there is no problems at all in their running charasteristics = running quality. But again there is some which have these problems, but I don't own at the time a single one having problems with the CAN motor! For me it seems the problems are more Mfx decoder load control based problems and not the motor problems. The locos which have no problems at all (I mean motor + decoder combo with this) are either equipped from the factory with C-Sinus (C-Sine) or 5-pole DCM. Without Märklin Mfx. With 6090, 60901 or C-Sinus.

But (I will repeat myself) I would not pay the same price for the VERY SAME (no extra features available) locomotive if there is now can motor (maybe from China or maybe not, who knows?) vs. previous more expensive but not always better combo of motor + Mfx decoder.

And what I would like to say and this is offtopic for this thread (sorry ) is that we can always stop buying Märklin locos if we want and continue buying their other products. Märklin is not only about locomotives, is this true?

What we all should try to do is to avoid hurting other forum members feelings with our (interesting in my opinion) discussions of new models 3-pole motors. I think at least RayF, Hoffmann and franciscohg have hurt their feelings. We don't want to be mean, we just want to discuss about Märklin's new way to not inform their customers (we!) about their new motors and/or some Mfx decoder problems...

I did that 210 hours long endurance test for my 29539 starter set can motored BR 81 and everything went okay! I don't complain about the 3-pole can motors here to be clear enough...

All the best and let's all just stay calm and take a drink. I drink just water .

Best regards,
Janne

Hi,

Ok. I can fully understand you really, also RayF and Hoffmann. But I just know a solution how this 3-pole vs. 5-pole etc. would stop in many threads in the future. When Märklin will just clearly inform us about their locomotives motors. It is just enough and then after that we will not see (hopefully) more motor based or moving to motor based threads in the future.

People are very curious what they will get when they buy a new locomotive and this brings here much discussion.

For me everything is ok when Märklin just will publish their new symbol for these can motors and if there are premium ones and standard ones, then they could also publish another symbol for the premium (more pricey) one. And also I would like them to make always good test running for their new locomotives to be sure they run well with their Mfx decoders.

Everything else is ok for me about Märklin. My own decision is to not buy anymore new Märklin locomotives in 2014, but I don't want to say that anyone should not buy them. I will be very interested in some reviews of these new models as I have high faith in those can motors at least .

Cheers,
Janne

Janne wrote:

My 2013 Märklin weathered CFL 5609 model 37560 runs very good with it's Mfx sound decoder from the factory. I have not opened it so I don't know about the motor type, but I assume it is a traditional coffee grinder 5-pole DCM?

Hey, Hey, traditional coffee grinder 5-pole DCM ?, all right I will not go into a debate if they are or not but at the same time, lets have a look why ? Märklin had a good idea of introducing a new concept of how your loco could run, to start of smoothly and brake slowly, that is fine and most of us have been impressed by it.
lets have a look at what is new: the permanent magnet, the armature but the brush plate hasn't been improved since it was introduced and the problem some modellers had with the motor not turning after a long period of lying idle.
Now my respond to problems like a brush plate or a motor has ceased (I'm sure Märklin has been aware of it for years as I have been) nothing has been done about to improve, to overcome, to acknowledge these problems. my solutions will not completely get rid of any excessive noise but at the same time I have been able to reduce the noise considerable.
and what happens we attach a name to this motor which in my opinion is not all fair for the only reason Märklin hasn't developed this motor to its next stage and this is, to slightly alter the brush plate assembly parts and to include 2 ball bearings (I've said it many times before).


John

I've had enough of the too many anti-critical voices being posted in every thread where we try to discuss about this new 3-pole motor phenomenon peacefully...

Okay, this thread's title is "2014 new item 37923 BR41 will have 3-pole again."

I think this is already a clear enough marking that people will bemoaned the fact that Marklin had swapped the bell-shaped armature from 37921/2 with the new standard 3-pole motor.... (in my terms, I repeat, 3-pole doesn't matter -- they're el-cheapos!)

Previously, there had been suggestions made by the same people that critical discussions toward this subject should be confined to a few threads only.

Is this thread has no clear enough distinction that we're about to (in some ways) rephrase our disappointment towards Marklin's new (hush-hush) policy of downgrading model??

Now that we have threads like this, people who voiced their disappointments have to endure endless ranting from the anti-critical group,
"Why so much negativity?"

This is a ranting thread -- not a positive thread.

I think we, who voiced our critical opinion of the current Marklin policy, have the rights to discuss them.

Do not try to make us feel guilty if you were disappointed or felt hurt about what is being discussed here!

If you don't like 3-pole discussions, why did you bother to read this thread anyway? From the title, it is already clear where it's gonna go!

Members of users-net are not paid commissions from Marklin to publish positive news about them!

We have the right to praise Marklin if they did it right, or criticize them otherwise.

Enough said.

Edited by user 09 February 2014 18:51:18(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Hi All,

As i only have the 37927 as far as 41's go I am tempted by this old boiler version and it's MFX+ decoder.
I won't preorder it, as it doesn't seem as tho it's a limited item, and see if it ends up being reduced in price because of all this negative three pole talk

Nobody has done a test of a three pole motor and mfx+ yet ??
An obvious answer to some of you would be the 37924 and a change to an ESU V4 decoder as I quite like the Wagner deflectors.

However I have spent quite a few hours this weekend testing my 37455 45.010 to see what her slow running characteristics are actually like, and I have made a video, lot's of therm actually, there's film from my Iphone all over the cutting room floor already but I have to take care of business now but will try and post the video early Monday morning NZtime GMT+13
That will be posted in the correct thread of course

So tempted........but I will shut my mouth for the sake oh harmony

V 200 got cheaper by € 50 without SDS. GG-1 got cheaper by € 100 when it lost the motor with bell-shaped armature. Big Boy didn't get cheaper, but also lost the motor with bell-shaped armature (and some of its smoothness and quietness).

ES 64 U2: 39837 with SDS and 3 pantographs: € 299.95; 39840 without SDS and with 2 pantographs: € 299.95
ES 64 F4: 39890 with SDS : € 299.95; 39860 without SDS: € 299.95
ES 64 F: 39342 with SDS: € 289.95 (back in 2008), 39850 with mfx+ but without SDS: 299.95
BR 218: 39180 with SDS: € 269.95, 37745 without SDS: € 269.95, 37764 with mfx+: € 299.95

Are locos with mfx+ generally more expensive?
No: BR 101: 37358 with mfx+: € 299.95, 39371 and 39372 without mfx: € 299.95
So the BR 218 with mfx+ is more expensive. But the Köf II 36819 is € 219.95 while the 36827 is only € 189.95. Märklin add € 30 to their prices from time to time (nothing wrong with that in general, inflation also affects Märklin).

BR 64: 39640 with SDS and mfx: € 299.95, 39644 with mfx+ but without SDS: € 329.95


The 37923 with 3-pole motor has the same RRP as the 37925 with bell-shaped armature. OK, mfx+ vs. mfx. But decoder is decoder and IMHO mfx+ does not justify a higher price.

I listed all the locos I have checked. Maybe I missed a few locos that got cheaper without SDS ...

I think you might more properly direct your inquiries to President Obama and the NSA here in the US. They do all the spying.


Maybe I have a new twist: I have the new BR 45 which I believe has the "horrid" 3 pole motor. I also recently acquired a new E10 weathered model with the same motor.

I haven't done any sophisticated measuring, but they both run very well: quiet and smooth. The only comment I would have is that both motors start and stop very abruptly, but this is easily regulated with the MFX system.

I guess, all things being equal 5 poles are better than three, but in the REAL world of model trains I don't think it makes much difference if any at all in practical use. Especially if the motor in question is as good as the ones in the newer loks.