Using a non marklin transformer or laptop PSU for CS 60215

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Using a non marklin transformer or laptop PSU for CS 60215

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kpallund		#1 Posted : 12 November 2013 17:43:44(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 19/10/2012(UTC) Posts: 16 Location: Copenhagen		Hi all, I just got my 60215 CS home, and intend to run it powered by either a self build trafo or a laptop power supply. The selfbuild trafo deliveres 19V/4A AC The laptop PSU #1 is 19V/4,5A DC The laptop PSU #2 is 20,5V/6,5A DC My problem is, how do I connect it ? There is a cable in the 60215 box with 2 leads going into a round 4 pin power connector. The wires are both black, but one of them has a white line. Can I use both AC and DC to power the 60215. If I use the Laptop PSU's which are DC, what wire is then positive and negative/ground Can anybody help ? I really do like to get the CS started, but I dont want to fry it either. /Kenneth
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H0		#2 Posted : 12 November 2013 18:01:19(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,451 Location: DE-NW		Hi! Originally Posted by: kpallund Can I use both AC and DC to power the 60215. Yes - but with AC I wouldn't go beyond 16 V (19 V DC will be OK and even 20.5 V DC is less than 16 V AC). The two leads from the cable go into a bridge rectifier inside the CS2 (to make it work with AC), so it doesn't matter where you connect plus and minus. You use them at your own risk (and void the Märklin CS2 warranty).
		Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS


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kpallund		#3 Posted : 12 November 2013 18:29:46(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 19/10/2012(UTC) Posts: 16 Location: Copenhagen		Thanks for the answer, great info. My homebuild trafo has been powering my old 6021 for ages. Its only because you wrote that 16v AC is more than 20,5V DC, and my own trafo delivers 18V AC and not 19 as I wrote, but that never harmed the 6021 - maybe its not as sensitive ?? /Kenneth
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H0		#4 Posted : 12 November 2013 20:22:54(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,451 Location: DE-NW		Originally Posted by: kpallund but that never harmed the 6021 - maybe its not as sensitive?? Märklin locos are specified for up to 22 V digital track voltage. And that's the voltage you get from 16 V AC. Higher voltages will increase the wear of motors (brushes) and light bulbs. With 18 V AC and a CU 6021, the track voltage will probably be above 24 V. The items don't die instantly, but they produce more heat than they should - and this can reduce their longevity. With your laptop PSUs, carefully test what happens when there's a short circuit on the track. If the PSU switches off faster than the CS2, then the CS2 will crash each time a train derails. Laptop PSUs are no toys and do not belong into the hands of children. I presume you're an adult, but would recommend not to leave CS2 and PSU unattended during the first time to see if it works fine.
		Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS


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Bigdaddynz		#5 Posted : 12 November 2013 20:30:58(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC) Posts: 18,772 Location: New Zealand		My experience of using a 19v laptop power supply, not with a CS2, but with a 60174 booster, is that everytime a short occurred I had to unplug the power supply from the mains and re plug it in to get it to recover from the short. Better to get the proper Marklin power supply - you've spent all that money on the CS2, surely another 60 to 80 euros on the power supply won't hurt (better than damaging the CS2 and having to pay for expensive repairs).
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clapcott		#6 Posted : 12 November 2013 22:00:13(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC) Posts: 2,448 Location: Wellington, New_Zealand		I will simply note that the power connector for the CS2 has 4 pins and that a) the cable that comes with it for use with an AC transformer uses the bottom 2 pins b) the "hard wires" cable/connector from a 60061 uses the top 2. Regarding the norms. NEM references - Controllers should not provide greater than +/-22V - Decoders ( > N scale ) should tolerate at least 27V I attach some field measurements - interpret how you wish. Note that the "Rating point" occurs about the 5/4.7 ohm mark after which you can see the PS(60061), being an active device, is unable to cope. the XFmr(60052) being passive continues on a more gradual decline. The datapoints for the 60061 where only achieved by setting the CS2 to 60101 otherwise the CS2 (not the transformer/PS) would report an overload at the 5Ohm load point. (Readings done from a 60173 Booster , to remove the overhead load of the CS2 internal logic etc) The accuracy of the CS2s internal voltmeter has a small question-mark over it (maybe 0.5v high compared to a scope trace), but can be used relative assements clapcott attached the following image(s):
		Peter

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kpallund		#7 Posted : 12 November 2013 22:14:12(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 19/10/2012(UTC) Posts: 16 Location: Copenhagen		I think you are right. I was trying a laptop PSU on a mobile station, and I made a short for a fraction of a second, and then the PSU stopped until I unplugged it and turned it back on. So the idea of using a laptop PSU isent bad, its just not designed for the job. I will therefore take your advise and buy a 60101 - its not that expensive. But until I get that I would like to fire the 60215 up anyway. But "H0" said it should not matter how and what I connect as long as the voltage isent to high. DC and AC makes no difference since there is a retifier inside. But then I found this thread: https://www.marklin-user...&m=313844#post313844 (you both made comments to it) If you look at the last post, the drawing suggest AC and DC inputs. I messured my cable and the 2 leads go to the purposed DC inputs and not AC. So now what ? should I now stick to only trying the laptop PSU's and are the drawing even correct ? I'm half confused and half scared to fry the CS. To save just a bit of money I have orderd the 60101 as a pickup, and that will not happen until the 1 december, and I'm not happy with having the CS just lying there, I want to power it on :-) Can you confirm the connetions ? I have both AC and DC, I just need to choose the correct one. /Kenneth
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kpallund		#8 Posted : 12 November 2013 22:21:27(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 19/10/2012(UTC) Posts: 16 Location: Copenhagen		Originally Posted by: clapcott I will simply note that the power connector for the CS2 has 4 pins and that a) the cable that comes with it for use with an AC transformer uses the bottom 2 pins b) the "hard wires" cable/connector from a 60061 uses the top 2. The drawing I refered to says the opposite What is correct ? /Kenneth
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H0		#9 Posted : 12 November 2013 22:46:05(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,451 Location: DE-NW		Originally Posted by: kpallund should I now stick to only trying the laptop PSU's and are the drawing even correct? Someone told me the drawing was not correct. The cable that came with the CS2 is suitable for AC.
		Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS


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clapcott		#10 Posted : 12 November 2013 23:05:39(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC) Posts: 2,448 Location: Wellington, New_Zealand		Originally Posted by: kpallund Originally Posted by: clapcott I will simply note that the power connector for the CS2 has 4 pins and that a) the cable that comes with it for use with an AC transformer uses the bottom 2 pins b) the "hard wires" cable/connector from a 60061 uses the top 2. The drawing I refered to says the opposite What is correct ? /Kenneth Kenneth, I can only comment on what I have in front of me, which is what I have noted. It may be that it doesn't mater and that there are variations in production. However it would be a bit annoying to find that there was a waste of a volt (through the rectifier) unnecessarily, but that may be the price we pay for protection.
		Peter


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Bigdaddynz		#11 Posted : 13 November 2013 01:18:09(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC) Posts: 18,772 Location: New Zealand		I used the cable that came with my 60174 booster (the same cable as that for the CS2) to connect my laptop power supply to the booster, and I'm now using the cable with an ESU 90va power supply to power the booster. Therefore, it seems that the cable is wired correctly for, and works OK with DC. I assume that it will also work with an AC transformer without any changes (which I haven't done myself), which is what it is provided for.
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kpallund		#12 Posted : 13 November 2013 09:33:35(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 19/10/2012(UTC) Posts: 16 Location: Copenhagen		I thank you all for the great posts, but I dont feel I'm much closer to powering up the CS. What I must ask you, is to put a volt meter to your cable and tell me how its connected. After this we can make our own AND CORRECT version af the previous mentioned drawing, and then I would be more comfortable connecting it. If is indeed are wired for DC, its pretty important to get positve and negative correct :-) /Kenneth
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H0		#13 Posted : 13 November 2013 09:38:22(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,451 Location: DE-NW		Originally Posted by: kpallund If is indeed are wired for DC, its pretty important to get positve and negative correct :-) The cable that comes with the CS2 is supplied for use with AC. The appropriate DC power supplies from Märklin all come with mounted cable/plug and don't need it.
		Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS


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Bigdaddynz		#14 Posted : 13 November 2013 11:01:46(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC) Posts: 18,772 Location: New Zealand		Originally Posted by: kpallund What I must ask you, is to put a volt meter to your cable and tell me how its connected. I don't need to use a volt meter for that. White to positive (or black with a white strip) / black to negative. I soldered a socket on the end of mine so that I could easily plug the ESU power supply into it. Works fine.
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waorb		#15 Posted : 13 November 2013 12:48:06(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 31/05/2011(UTC) Posts: 868 Location: Brazil		Originally Posted by: kpallund (...) but that never harmed the 6021 - maybe its not as sensitive ?? Hello Kenneth! Better safe than sorry... Of course a new trafo from Märklin needs more $$$, but IMHO it's better to use your old trafo to power digital little boxes (K83, S88), turnouts, signals, even lights at the layout, and install a 60101 transformer (5A) or 60061 (3A) like stated in 60215 manual. Cheers, Walter
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clapcott		#16 Posted : 15 November 2013 00:35:40(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC) Posts: 2,448 Location: Wellington, New_Zealand		Originally Posted by: clapcott Originally Posted by: kpallund Originally Posted by: clapcott I will simply note that the power connector for the CS2 has 4 pins and that a) the cable that comes with it for use with an AC transformer uses the bottom 2 pins b) the "hard wires" cable/connector from a 60061 uses the top 2. The drawing I refered to says the opposite What is correct ? /Kenneth Kenneth, I can only comment on what I have in front of me, which is what I have noted. It may be that it doesn't mater and that there are variations in production. However it would be a bit annoying to find that there was a waste of a volt (through the rectifier) unnecessarily, but that may be the price we pay for protection. BTW, The 60101 (the 100VA 19V DC) power supply also provides its power via the top 2 pins
		Peter


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kpallund		#17 Posted : 15 November 2013 11:21:02(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 19/10/2012(UTC) Posts: 16 Location: Copenhagen		I just got the 60101 yesterday, and I will mesure everything through and post my findings in some easy to follow pictures. I made some quick tests last night and it seems to confirms what Tom said - the other drawing is not correct. I will also check what you said that the 60101 uses all pins. more to come later. /Kenneth
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Bigdaddynz		#18 Posted : 15 November 2013 11:32:21(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC) Posts: 18,772 Location: New Zealand		Remember to use decent size wire for your feeder tracks if you are going to use the 60101 / CS2 with H0. Marklin recommend a minimum wire cross section of 0.5 mm2. This is so that the CS2 can properly detect short circuits and correctly activate the overload protection. Marklin say they do not warrant a CS2 used with 60101 for H0 use, the 60101 is intended for Gauge 1 use. So take good precautions with your layout - others have used 60101 wth H0 without problems, providing care is taken. Edited by user 15 November 2013 21:18:00(UTC) \| Reason: Not specified
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kpallund		#19 Posted : 15 November 2013 22:19:18(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 19/10/2012(UTC) Posts: 16 Location: Copenhagen		Here are the result of my messurements and the connections of the cable,trafo and CS /Kenneth
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