Too many severe train accidents lately, this one reminds me of the Enschede ICE disaster some years ago...

According to the Dutch press this morning a Spanish government official would have stated that the train drove at 220 km/h where only 80 km/h was allowed.
Can any Spanish members confirm this statement?

Impressive...



A sad day...

This is the train:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvia

I think the coaches share the bogeys...

Such a tragedy.....
i have read in Le Monde that the sections of the tracks where the accident took place were not constructed for the AVE, but they used the preexistent tracks, mainly to the high cost to buy the terrains to build the new line, and that they had previous troubles on that curve............so, sadly it was just a matter of time to have such a tragedy............again economic matters were putted over safety and the potentially human cost were neglected
A strong hug to all my friends in Spain and to the families of all the victims and wounded people

Hi all

Very sad news and looking more like driver error from reports here in the UK.

Looking at the clip, I am surprised there are not more dead.

The clip is frightening as if we scale that down we see that sometimes in our own rail system, but thankfully with no loss of life.

Mike

Wow, what a violent crash !

Heard on the radio today that deaths are up to 80 now ... :/
... and that, in addition to the driver going 190 km/h on a curved stretch of track with a max speed limit of 80 km/h with previous reported incidents (compared with Bretigny-sur-Orge where the speed was 137 km/h in a 150 km/h zone; small increments of speed really do kill !), the guy apparently posted several times on his Facebook-EN / Facebook-ES page how he wanted to "go fast" without getting caught ; a driver with 30 years experience, and no previous problems ?!!

So, we can imagine that the tracks are not in great shape for economic reasons, but (and if what I heard on the radio turns out to be true [can't always trust what the media says, eh ?]) when a nut is allowed behind the controls there is not much anyone can do ...
Question is, how did RENFE allow this guy to on on for so long ... ???

Sad, sad ... and tragically senseless,

Y

Edited by user 25 July 2013 23:08:36(UTC)  | Reason: ...

It is very tragic to see this rail crash. I can't get the thought out of my head of a child looking for there parents!
And I would not want to hang the driver before his judged!
I hope that the outcome brings about an even greater rail safety

Video footage from a security camera shows the train going way too fast through the corner.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/w...use-of-Spain-train-crash

One of the locomotiv driver was member in facebook and under march month did picture a speed about 200 km/h...!!!
Same driver in this accident!!!
His membersship has now been banned in the facebook!

Maybe they can't afford it? I just saw an episode of Top Gear- Five lane motorways without anyone on them, a brand new airport-never opened and a city with multiple 10 story apartment buildings with no one around. At first you would think it was the Ukranian exclusion zone until you notice the structures are brand new. I knew their economic situation was bad, but this made it clear how severe it is.

http://www.bbcamerica.co...ide/season-20/episode-3/

...it is more than a " warning system"....: if the driver doesn't react after few seconds the train automatically brakes & stops...

What bothers me is the presence of a sharped double curve....right in the middle of a hi speed line...
On 300/350 km/h High speed lines, the radius of curves is round about 6 KM / 7 KM....
MY question is : I have read a map on which this part of the line is mentionned as a " Hi-speed line".... ...so what kind of line it really is ?....is the design of this line in standards ? (the line opened on december 2011...)

National news here reported it as new track laid on an old right of way. Speed limit for turn was reported as 50MPH.

In tonights major Dutch newspaper Algemeen Dagblad it is stated that on the piece of track where the crash occured the socalled ASFA safety system is in use.
This system gives warnings with lamps and sound when speed is too high,it does not control the speed.
It would seem that the driver Fransisco Jose Garzon has ignored the warnings,for whatever reason.
Four kilometres earlier on the high speed line the ERTMS system is in force,automatically breaking when speed is too high.
Garzon worked already 13 years as engine driver for Renfe and was aquainted with this particular stretch for over a year.
Apparently he put pictures on Facebook with speedometer over 200 km/h,joking he fooled the Guardia Civil,the Spanish police.
How mad can you get i wonder.
How many times did his passengers escape through the eye of a needle before this disaster took finally place?
Why was he not stopped by his fellow engine driver,was he a partner in crime?
Questions,questions.

Paul.

Edited by user 27 July 2013 08:22:12(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Interesting article Francisco ... didn't know you read FRA ^^ ;)

In short, and as you have already mentioned, there is a partial explanation to jeehring's question above (paraphrased translation) :

"This is the first train accident on AVE high speed track (TGV equivalent in Spain).
Between Madrid and Ferrol, to the north of Galicia, trains travel through track sections alternating between TGV high speed and standard Spanish tracks. And precisely at the curve where the accident occurred, the track is standard for reasons explained by the RENFE as related to expropriation issues in this urban context leading to decisions not to "upgrade" the track.

High speed AVE track is subject to ERTMS (European Rail Trafic Management System) which automatically regulates speed ...
Standard track is only regulated by ASFA (Automatic Braking and Signal Announcement, a Spanish system) depending on "markers".
However, there are no markers on the section of track where the accident occurred.
In other words, when approaching the curve, no automatic system is available and vigilance is entirely human ...

The driver upon rescue manifested his worry at having possibly killed people, but has since gone silent ... "

Agreed, looks like human error, bad design ... and political/financial impasse ... !

Yum :/

There is a good sumary in a Spanish newspaper:
http://elpais.com/elpais...a/1374703338_483146.html
The article is in Spanish, but most of the information is also in graphical form.

Rafael

Bob, I'm very sorry but your sentences are inaccurate. Please refer to the article in El Pais I referenced in my previous post.


This article is also interesting (this time in English): http://www.scientificame...h-high-speed-train-crash


Rafael

It is my firm belief that the driver is guilty and the driver only.
The driver new the stretch where he crashed,he has been there many times before.
As such he knew he should reduce speed when changing from high speed track to lower speed track.
He also new that the low speed track is not having an automatic braking system.
He knew it all!
His colleagues are saying he is actually a slow driver by nature,always turning in late.
I dare to doubt such statements made by colleagues in the same profession.
It is a common human habit between colleagues to cover each others back,if you are not part of the pack you are out as a colleague.
Perhaps they were all doing some speeding on the slow track and escaped unnoticed sofar.
I understand he had some 4,000 mtrs distance to reduce speed when leaving the high speed track,that should be adequate.
It is the same thing with traffic lights for roadtraffic,if they turn red you need to stop,still a number of people ignore them for their own good,are we to blame the trafficlights for that?!

H0,

As always i am expressing my personal opinion,based on what i read in the serious(!) press overhere.
When recovered from the wreckage,the first spoken words of the driver are stated to be (quote) I fu...d it up!(unquote).
He now refuses to make any statements to the police,he uses his right to remain silent.
Perhaps he is not to blame and i am wrong,could be.
In any event his life will be over.
Yesterday evening we had a very impressive photo on the frontpage of the newspaper in Rotterdam,a fireman carrying a wounded child from the train to an ambulance,she lives to tell!

In Holland,our hearts are with the relatives and loved ones of the victims,may they find the strength to overcome this tragedy.

This is indeed a tragic accident.

The immediate root cause will probably be a criminal act from train driver but as Tom pointed out, underlying root cause also need to be asked:

- What is safety culture in this company if train drivers are regularly braking the speed limits?
- Where is the external audit/verification to ensure train drivers are following correct procedures?
- Was there a external time pressure?
- Why is there no safety barriers in place to ensure you cannot use excessive speed on a transition track (budget cuts)?
- Why has it not been raised by the public or passengers previously travelling on the train (surely someone with rail knowledge would have noted if a train was performing such speeding regularly)?
- Maybe the hazard was not identified (people have different perception of danger) – we thought the track would be safe enough to go 200 km/t – the rule is just bureaucracy etc.

Similar for the incident in Canada, I am still perplexed to understand how it can ever have been approved in a risk assessment to park an oil train on a hill overnight and in case the brake fails it will roll downhill to centre of city and probably derail? But I guess a risk assessment was never done?

Brgds - Lasse

NS1200,

He said that right after the accident in a state of shock.
He has been driving trains on that route for one year and this should not have happened.

But the level of guilt is still unknown. You mentioned Chernobyl: disabled security systems are one story, insufficient security systems are another story. I read that there were two drivers on the train, but I don't know if both were in the cab at the time of the accident.

Unless he disabled the security systems, he was not the only one who could have prevented this accident - and then he would not be the only guilty person IMHO.
In order to learn from this incident and to prevent future accidents, this accident must be fully analysed. Saying it was the driver's fault "only" is too simple with the little facts we know now.

Hi,

The driver was going too fast, this is a fact, and obviously the direct responsible of going that fast was the driver.

But as stated before in the thread, it's just incredible that the decision on "how fast to go" is left solely in the driver's hand, even with signals, route plan and so on.

For me, the facebook pictures with the speedometer showing 200 km/h mean nothing- this train runs 200 km/h most of the route from Madrid to Santiago. In my opinion, people who blames the driver for showing a picture of a speedometer showing a "normal speed" for that train in most sections of that route should refrain from doing so. As press in this country is all but serious, most newspapers have shown that particular picture, thus "preparing" everybody to assume that the driver was irresponsible. Maybe he was, but facts will show, not pictures in facebook.

The ERMTS section before the tight curve is a completely straight, 80 km long track section allowing for 200 km/h top speed. Then the ERMTS monitoring/control system changes to ASFA (Signal Analysis and automatic braking) just before the curve starts. ASFA is a safety system but, other than signaling to the driver that the train is running too fast, it will only brake the train in events such as passing a red light (it will not control speed or reduce trains's speed if going faster than the speed limit).

For those who point out the condition of the track as being a possible "side responsible" in the accident: The track was laid on an old route, true, but the track was new and had no issues: the reason for the 80 km/h speed limit was not the track but the curve. The track was new and actually in the video it can be seen that it withstands the train going that fast on it particularly well. No technical issues with the track or the train, only real (and pathetic) issue concerning the outdated ASFA safety system in a particularly critical point, and a driver who obviously did not take care of that particular speed limit.

The worst thing is that in this crappy country, politicians will agree that the driver was fully responsible for the crash and will keep on filling their pockets with as much money as possible. Political decisions that may affect technical aspects which may lead to some deaths? Bah...that's not important, but please, book me a 5 star hotel and let's go lunch to the Ritz.

Some facts regarding the train: This was a special version of the Alvia train (the S730, former S130H where H stands for Hybrid). It is special because differently to the "standard" Alvia train (S130), it is hybrid: other than being able to run on electrified sections (25KV AC or 3 KV DC) it has a Diesel power generator just behind each end motor car which allows it to run on non-electrified sections. It is, actually, the first hybrid passenger train unit in the world. The passenger coaches are Talgo S7 ones (manufacturer's name for the train is Talgo 250, 250 being the train's operational top speed). It is able to run on iberian gauge (1668 mm) as well as on high speed gauge (1435mm which is the same as Euro gauge).

This hybrid configuration was choosen because, precisely on the Madrid-Ferrol route there are still some non-electrified sections.

And, as a matter of fact, it can be seen in the video that the derailment starts when the generator car (which is the heaviest one and also the one having the highest gravity center due to the presence of the 6,6 Ton diesel engine inside coupled to the generator) tilts due to the centrifugal force at the excessive speed and the inner wheels take off, dragging the coaches behind it and the front end motor car.

Edited by user 27 July 2013 21:20:46(UTC)  | Reason: orto+gram

Thank you! Trying to connect a seperate event that is the correct operation of the loko to this event is not only wrong, but irresponsible.

The equipment, both loko and track, were fine and not to blame for the incident. How or why the engineer screwed up is simply conjecture at this point and may never be established if he does not explain himself.

For safety reasons ERMTS should end with a speed limit of 80 km/h at this point.
Stupid to have a highly safe control system end before a dangerous point.

Automatic train security systems have been used for more than 100 years to prevent human errors to lead to tragedies.