k83 Decoders - Series or Parallel?

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k83 Decoders - Series or Parallel? - waorb

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waorb		#1 Posted : 19 July 2013 15:47:13(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 31/05/2011(UTC) Posts: 868 Location: Brazil		Hello together! I started a layout 5 years ago, and now I have it with 40 turnouts. This month I started to digitalize all elements (turnouts, signals and uncupplers) with 13 k83 decoders. They will be controlled by a CS2 60215. I heard/read that the best way it's to power the decoders all in parallel. I think the option to power all 13 decoders in series it's not a good thing. I don't like the option to install all of them in parallel (too much wires). So, I will ask for opinions: Which is a reasonable number of k83 installed in series? Is there a theoretical max number of decoders in series? Thanks! Walter
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H0		#2 Posted : 19 July 2013 18:18:16(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,474 Location: DE-NW		Hi! Originally Posted by: waorb I don't like the option to install all of them in parallel (too much wires). I don't see more cables when you wire them in parallel. Every plug increases the impedance (resistance) of the connection and the last k83 in the chain will get a lower voltage than the first one. Each k83 needs two wires when you connect them in series and two wires when you connect them in parallel. Depending on the layout, the positions of the turnouts and the intended positions of the k83 the wires could be slightly longer with parallel connections. Do you have a separate booster for the turnouts? You need feeder tracks about every two meters. And if you don't have a separate booster or prepare your layout for a separate booster, the k83s can be connected to the feeder tracks. If you want to have a separate booster, you need one extra cable (booster red) in addition to the cables you already have (track red and track brown - booster brown can be connected to track brown).
		Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS

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efel		#3 Posted : 19 July 2013 23:06:34(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 23/02/2005(UTC) Posts: 801		Hi, From an electrical point of view, the decoders are always in parallel. When connecting them in "cascade" (digital signal input of a k83 connected to the previous k83 digital output), there is only small parasitic resistances of the plugs in "series" with the digital signal. The digital current drawn by the k83 is low, except during the switching time, and, generally, there is only 1 turnout switched at a time. Hence, the drop voltage is low and I don't think there is a problem to "cascade" the k83s. The Number1 issue when using digitally controled turnouts is, instead, the lack of reliability of the end shutoff contacts: they must be removed or shorted: you will find many related topics on this forum.

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waorb		#4 Posted : 22 July 2013 19:19:11(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 31/05/2011(UTC) Posts: 868 Location: Brazil		Originally Posted by: H0 Hi! Originally Posted by: waorb I don't like the option to install all of them in parallel (too much wires). I don't see more cables when you wire them in parallel. Hi Tom! Thanks for your opinion. Well, I agree with you... but my mistake, I don't explain correctly... I wanna say that if I use them in series, just one pair of cables starts at the power source. If I use them in parallel, more than one pair will start. Quote: Depending on the layout, the positions of the turnouts and the intended positions of the k83 the wires could be slightly longer with parallel connections. Here it is: https://www.marklin-user...m/yaf_albums.aspx?u=3493 Quote: Do you have a separate booster for the turnouts? Probably not anymore. Actually, all turnouts and signals had previously a separate booster. I'm in the middle of digitalize all the layout. At this point I'm powering the k83s directly from the same Booster/CS2 of the tracks. Quote: You need feeder tracks about every two meters. Never heard that! Really? I have 75 linear meters of tracks, and only 2 points of power (you can see at my album above). Just one feeder track from the CS2 and another one from the Booster. Regards, Walter
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waorb		#5 Posted : 22 July 2013 19:34:36(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 31/05/2011(UTC) Posts: 868 Location: Brazil		Originally Posted by: efel Hi, From an electrical point of view, the decoders are always in parallel. When connecting them in "cascade" (digital signal input of a k83 connected to the previous k83 digital output), there is only small parasitic resistances of the plugs in "series" with the digital signal. Hello! That's correct... Quote: The digital current drawn by the k83 is low, except during the switching time, and, generally, there is only 1 turnout switched at a time. Hence, the drop voltage is low and I don't think there is a problem to "cascade" the k83s. If I'm not wrong, my "worst" case is when I switch one signal with the corresponding distant signal, and 2 turnouts, all together (if I'm wrong, it' only one turnout). So, I have a maximum of 3 ou 4 elements switching at the same time. This situation was before digitalize the layout. And not tested yet. Regards, Walter
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H0		#6 Posted : 22 July 2013 21:03:35(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,474 Location: DE-NW		Originally Posted by: waorb Quote: You need feeder tracks about every two meters. Never heard that! Really? Märklin write 2 to 3 m, some recommend 1.5 m, some feed every single piece of track. If you think you only need two feeder tracks, better make extensive test runs with maximum load (long trains with interior lights) before you ballast the tracks.
		Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS


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efel		#7 Posted : 22 July 2013 21:59:01(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 23/02/2005(UTC) Posts: 801		Originally Posted by: waorb ... If I'm not wrong, my "worst" case is when I switch one signal with the corresponding distant signal, and 2 turnouts, all together (if I'm wrong, it' only one turnout). So, I have a maximum of 3 ou 4 elements switching at the same time. This situation was before digitalize the layout. And not tested yet. Regards, Walter If I were you, I'd avoid to switch several magnetic articles at the same time with one (or several) k83, (unless your k83 have an external power feeding: Viessmann type and others). The peak current is 1.5A per article and that current is delivered by the digital signal. Use a 100ms switch time for each, and switch them one after the other. Fred


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cookee_nz		#8 Posted : 23 July 2013 12:47:55(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC) Posts: 4,014 Location: Paremata, Wellington		Originally Posted by: waorb Hello together! I started a layout 5 years ago, and now I have it with 40 turnouts. This month I started to digitalize all elements (turnouts, signals and uncupplers) with 13 k83 decoders. They will be controlled by a CS2 60215. I heard/read that the best way it's to power the decoders all in parallel. I think the option to power all 13 decoders in series it's not a good thing. I don't like the option to install all of them in parallel (too much wires). So, I will ask for opinions: Which is a reasonable number of k83 installed in series? Is there a theoretical max number of decoders in series? Thanks! Walter Hi Walter, I am a little puzzled by your question. When you ask about wiring in Series, do you mean like you would wire several lamps - ie one lead from the power source to one leg of the first lamp, then the other leg of that lamp to the next lamp, continuing on with the final leg of the last lamp going to the other lead back to the power source? This method means that if you had a 16v supply, and you had 16 x 1v lamps, they would all glow at their correct brightness, but if a single lamp fails, none of them work. This is generally how older Christmas tree lights are wired. You had (for example) 240v going in, but each lamp was 12v, therefore you would normally have around 20 lamps - 20 lamps x 12v = 240v In Parallel, both legs of each lamp are wired to the same two wires from the power source. The lamps must be rated the same as the power source, but if one fails, the others will still glow. So if you are talking about wiring each decoder from one to the next in Series like the lamps, I'm afraid it simply won't work, a digital signal must be direct from the source, Red to Red & Brown to Brown, which is indeed Parallel and is the only way it would work. But if you really are concerned about use of wire, you could tap the Brown for each Decoder from the Track outer rail because there is always going to be track nearby, and simply run the Red as a separate wire. The original 'dream' was that there would be no separate wiring for any decoders, they would all just be connected to the nearest track, but the reality of course is that many people preferred to power their decoders separate from the track to keep maximum power for the Locos and on larger layouts Boosters would be used. Or have I mis-understood your question? Regards Steve NZ cookee_nz attached the following image(s):
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H0		#9 Posted : 23 July 2013 13:06:48(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,474 Location: DE-NW		Each decoder has red and brown on both side. You can connect the first decoder to the track (e.g. on the left side) and connect the left side of the second decoder to the right side of the first decoder. If you have 10 decoders, the current to the last decoder will flow through 38 plugs and 9 decoder PCBs while the current to the first decoder goes through 2 plugs only. Actually the decoders are in parallel, but they are chained. The alternative is direct connection of each decoder to a power distributor.
		Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS

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waorb		#10 Posted : 23 July 2013 22:21:51(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 31/05/2011(UTC) Posts: 868 Location: Brazil		Originally Posted by: cookee_nz Originally Posted by: waorb So, I will ask for opinions: Which is a reasonable number of k83 installed in series? Is there a theoretical max number of decoders in series? But if you really are concerned about use of wire, you could tap the Brown for each Decoder from the Track outer rail because there is always going to be track nearby, and simply run the Red as a separate wire. The original 'dream' was that there would be no separate wiring for any decoders, they would all just be connected to the nearest track, but the reality of course is that many people preferred to power their decoders separate from the track to keep maximum power for the Locos and on larger layouts Boosters would be used. Hi Steve! This is what I'm looking (one of them). Regards, Walter waorb attached the following image(s):
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cookee_nz		#11 Posted : 24 July 2013 01:06:06(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC) Posts: 4,014 Location: Paremata, Wellington		Originally Posted by: waorb Originally Posted by: cookee_nz Originally Posted by: waorb So, I will ask for opinions: Which is a reasonable number of k83 installed in series? Is there a theoretical max number of decoders in series? But if you really are concerned about use of wire, you could tap the Brown for each Decoder from the Track outer rail because there is always going to be track nearby, and simply run the Red as a separate wire. The original 'dream' was that there would be no separate wiring for any decoders, they would all just be connected to the nearest track, but the reality of course is that many people preferred to power their decoders separate from the track to keep maximum power for the Locos and on larger layouts Boosters would be used. Hi Steve! This is what I'm looking (one of them). Regards, Walter Ah ok, gotcha now. I remember seeing that diagram now but couldn't recall it when trying to understand your question. And I could not imagine anyone trying the Serial method I first queried. I would normally have referred to the Serial method as "Daisy-Chaining", like you can do (in theory) with USB, SCSI or MIDI, into one device and out onto the next. The reality is the signal loss quickly adds up for devices that don't have separate power and a Hub or Signal booster/replicator is usually advisable. So, in a digital sense they are essentially the same, but I would tend to think there would be more reliable connections from the Parallel method than Serial but only if fewer connectors are used. ie; if you used the small Marklin distribution blocks, then they are probably much the same. I can see the Series method being more useful when you have several Decoders very close to each other, and it would also look very neat and tidy. The Parallel method may suit better when Decoders are spread further apart. Thanks for the image to understand your question.
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waorb		#12 Posted : 24 July 2013 02:47:28(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 31/05/2011(UTC) Posts: 868 Location: Brazil		Originally Posted by: H0 Actually the decoders are in parallel, but they are chained. The alternative is direct connection of each decoder to a power distributor. I'm thinking that this is the best solution...
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waorb		#13 Posted : 24 July 2013 03:01:45(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 31/05/2011(UTC) Posts: 868 Location: Brazil		Originally Posted by: cookee_nz So, in a digital sense they are essentially the same, but I would tend to think there would be more reliable connections from the Parallel method than Serial but only if fewer connectors are used. ie; if you used the small Marklin distribution blocks, then they are probably much the same. I can see the Series method being more useful when you have several Decoders very close to each other, and it would also look very neat and tidy. The Parallel method may suit better when Decoders are spread further apart. Yeap. Like Tom also said, the power distributor can be used... I think I'll "merge" both diagrams... using 2 or 3 decoders in "series", in a diagram of 3 or 4 in "parallel" (in this case, all connected in power distributors, directly connected to the power source). I have 13 decoders in total. So it's not too much work... (you can see the layout in my albums) Quote: Thanks for the image to understand your question. Paint, Google Images, and copy&paste 20min. Thanks for the advice and opinions! Regards, Walter
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waorb		#14 Posted : 24 July 2013 03:14:20(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 31/05/2011(UTC) Posts: 868 Location: Brazil		Originally Posted by: efel If I were you, I'd avoid to switch several magnetic articles at the same time with one (or several) k83, (unless your k83 have an external power feeding: Viessmann type and others). Hi Fred! Right now I have only 2 power sources. The CS2 and a Booster; one of each on almost half/half of the layout. I'll analyze the option to install an exclusive power source to those decoders. Quote: The peak current is 1.5A per article and that current is delivered by the digital signal. Since my routes demands those 3 or 4 elements switching, maybe I separate them at least 2 to the CS2 power, and the another 2 to the Booster power. Quote: Use a 100ms switch time for each, and switch them one after the other. The CS2 have the minimum time set to 200ms. I can increase the number, but not decrease. Regards, Walter
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efel		#15 Posted : 25 July 2013 09:36:46(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 23/02/2005(UTC) Posts: 801		Originally Posted by: waorb Originally Posted by: efel Use a 100ms switch time for each, and switch them one after the other. The CS2 have the minimum time set to 200ms. I can increase the number, but not decrease. Hi, In fact you don't have to worry for, even if you send (almost) at the same time several switch commands to the CS2 (for example with a computer software), the commands will be sent one after the other (every 200ms) by the CS2. Then the maximum current will always be the current of 1 turnout motor. (Except if you connect several motors to the same k83 output, or give the same adress to several k83, which has to be avoided! Fred

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waorb		#16 Posted : 25 July 2013 22:01:18(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 31/05/2011(UTC) Posts: 868 Location: Brazil		Originally Posted by: efel Originally Posted by: waorb Originally Posted by: efel Use a 100ms switch time for each, and switch them one after the other. The CS2 have the minimum time set to 200ms. I can increase the number, but not decrease. In fact you don't have to worry for, even if you send (almost) at the same time several switch commands to the CS2 (for example with a computer software), the commands will be sent one after the other (every 200ms) by the CS2. Hi Fred! I didn't realize that. (even don't know this, I'm pretty new in the decoder's world) I'm in the point of configure the CS2 and install the k83 under the table. So, even if I need that 4 elements are changed "at the same time", actually the CS2 will made one after another? Quote: Then the maximum current will always be the current of 1 turnout motor. (Except if you connect several motors to the same k83 output, or give the same adress to several k83, which has to be avoided! Fred No, they don't have the same address... every one with his own address. But... maybe on my routes more than one element (signal or turnout) is plugged into the same k83, and need to be activated at the same time. I need to be aware of this? It's advised to plug into separated k83 the elements that need to be changed "together"? (I uploaded to MyAlbuns the K83 Map of my layout) Regards, Walter
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efel		#17 Posted : 25 July 2013 23:21:24(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 23/02/2005(UTC) Posts: 801		Originally Posted by: waorb ... So, even if I need that 4 elements are changed "at the same time", actually the CS2 will made one after another? Yes. That means that the 4th turnout will be switched 0.8s after the first one. Is it really a too long time in your case ? If not, go on using an own adress for each k83, and connect only 1 motor (turnout or signal) per k83 output (that means 4 turnouts/signals per k83). By the way, how do you control the layout? With a computer + CS2? Fred


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waorb		#18 Posted : 26 July 2013 17:14:03(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 31/05/2011(UTC) Posts: 868 Location: Brazil		Originally Posted by: efel Originally Posted by: waorb ... So, even if I need that 4 elements are changed "at the same time", actually the CS2 will made one after another? Yes. That means that the 4th turnout will be switched 0.8s after the first one. Is it really a too long time in your case ? Sincerelly? I don't know yet. This weekend I'll finish to install the k83s, and them create the routes on CS2. Quote: If not, go on using an own adress for each k83, and connect only 1 motor (turnout or signal) per k83 output (that means 4 turnouts/signals per k83). I'll read my annotations and post later... In the 'analog' way, the wires of signals and turnouts was connected together, so, when a lok pass thru the circuit tracks (24994/24294), they switch together... In this case I used a separate power source to signals and turnouts. Now they have power from the CS2+Booster. Quote: By the way, how do you control the layout? With a computer + CS2? Fred No, just the CS2. I have 2 mobile stations connected to the CS2, but barely use them... they came with the starter-sets from the beginning of the layout. I was thinking to control the layout with a computer (Mac), but realize that I need to learn more about blocks in the layout (even buy the hardware, choose the "best technology", software, etc). Right now I only have S88 and circuit tracks to have feedbacks... Regards, Walter
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Bigdaddynz		#19 Posted : 26 July 2013 23:59:39(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC) Posts: 18,778 Location: New Zealand		Originally Posted by: waorb Quote: You need feeder tracks about every two meters. Never heard that! Really? Some folks in in our Marklin Club recommend feeder wires on every piece of track. I stick to the 2 metre rule myself.
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old toot		#20 Posted : 27 July 2013 06:26:29(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 09/07/2009(UTC) Posts: 498 Location: christchurch, canterbury		Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Originally Posted by: waorb Quote: You need feeder tracks about every two meters. Never heard that! Really? Some folks in in our Marklin Club recommend feeder wires on every piece of track. I stick to the 2 metre rule myself. Hi David yep 2 meters is the rule i have been given out for years , and a lot of guys are running a heavy 19 amp rated cable like a loop under their layout which is connected to the two wires from the controller and they then tap taps off that every two metres and this gives and even power supply all over the track system as digital systems are far more sensitive to voltage drops All K83 decoders should be wired in parallel so if one goes faulty the whole lot are not lost okay regards old toot
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Goofy		#21 Posted : 27 July 2013 08:00:08(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC) Posts: 9,301		Originally Posted by: waorb Originally Posted by: cookee_nz Originally Posted by: waorb So, I will ask for opinions: Which is a reasonable number of k83 installed in series? Is there a theoretical max number of decoders in series? But if you really are concerned about use of wire, you could tap the Brown for each Decoder from the Track outer rail because there is always going to be track nearby, and simply run the Red as a separate wire. The original 'dream' was that there would be no separate wiring for any decoders, they would all just be connected to the nearest track, but the reality of course is that many people preferred to power their decoders separate from the track to keep maximum power for the Locos and on larger layouts Boosters would be used. Hi Steve! This is what I'm looking (one of them). Regards, Walter I use contact plate(Brawa) to feed out to all decoders and to the tracks too. Also to feed digital power to the turnouts motor(Tortoise) to feed frog of the turnouts(polarity + or -).
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Goofy		#22 Posted : 27 July 2013 08:04:30(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC) Posts: 9,301		P.S. The real problem about connecting digital system is to connect as a ring,because it interferes with digital traffic.
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Danlake		#23 Posted : 27 July 2013 08:38:34(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 03/08/2011(UTC) Posts: 1,571		Originally Posted by: Goofy P.S. The real problem about connecting digital system is to connect as a ring,because it interferes with digital traffic. I have read this before and still not understand it…. Some DCC expert says your wire bus should never be in a loop. Ok, that may make sense but what about the simple oval track running above? Isn’t that also a type of wire bus which is a basic loop? Never heard any recommendation from Marklin that should isolate your oval digtal track layout? Brgds - Lasse
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H0		#24 Posted : 27 July 2013 08:48:21(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,474 Location: DE-NW		Originally Posted by: Danlake Originally Posted by: Goofy The real problem about connecting digital system is to connect as a ring,because it interferes with digital traffic. I have read this before and still not understand it…. I don't understand this either. Can we have a link to the source of this information, please?
		Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS


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Goofy		#25 Posted : 27 July 2013 09:24:47(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC) Posts: 9,301		Originally Posted by: H0 Originally Posted by: Danlake Originally Posted by: Goofy The real problem about connecting digital system is to connect as a ring,because it interferes with digital traffic. I have read this before and still not understand it…. I don't understand this either. Can we have a link to the source of this information, please? Marklin did told this information to customer when connecting digital wires as power feeder. Sorry...i don´t have source to links. By the way...why only to show up series or and parallel??? If there is no interupt of connect digital wires as loop or ring...why not show this as results???
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Goofy		#26 Posted : 27 July 2013 10:17:58(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC) Posts: 9,301		My layout is connecting like series.
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