Joined: 03/06/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,253 Location: Sydney, NSW
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Hi Everyone,
I know that this is a Marklin forum, however, I would like to ask this question and perhaps someone here will know the answer.
A friend of mine has a Hornby HO/OO train set in its original box and is in mint condition. It was purchased in the mid 1950's and it is powered by AC. As far as I know, Hornby only produced DC locos, however, I'm wrong. Can anyone shed some light on this topic - is this train set a rare item?
Regards
Greg |
Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
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Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC) Posts: 6,764 Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Hi Greg,
Is this train set running on 3 rail track?
What sort of controller is being used?
regards Kimball |
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge. |
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Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC) Posts: 31,692 Location: United Kingdom
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It it a Hornby-Dublo?
Most Dublo 3-rails locos are 12 volts DC. |
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy. |
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Joined: 03/06/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,253 Location: Sydney, NSW
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The train is running on 3 rail track. The loco has a slider underneath for power pickup. It is definitely HO scale. I'll have to check the controller, however, from memory it was the usual transformer style. It is NOT Hornby-Dublo. The plot is thickening. Greg |
Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
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Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC) Posts: 15,870 Location: Gibraltar, Europe
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If it's Hornby in the 1950s then it must be Hornby Dublo. It would have 3 rail track and the loco would have a slider under it. The difference between HO and OO at that time was largely academic!
The only alternative I can think of from that period is Trix, which made British outline trains in OO/HO which ran on 3 rail track. |
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC) Posts: 31,692 Location: United Kingdom
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Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy. |
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Joined: 23/11/2010(UTC) Posts: 193 Location: U.K. Midlands
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Hornby Dublo locomotives according to my reference books and my memory have never used AC power, only 12v DC and clockwork. The Hornby ( and Trix ) collectors are more like "spoons" than the long flat slider used for stud contact.
British Trix used AC into the 50s in many models and used the "Trix Twin" system with 3-insulated rails with side collectors which could be moved to be on opposite sides to allow operation of two trains on the same track. The power connector track for this system is distinctive as it has 3 terminals !
There may be oddities in the ranges as one Trix product for the American market was 2-rail DC in the AC period with fine scale wheels to match up with local preferences.
As requested above a photo would help to identfy the set or the set part number would help as I have books covering both Hornby and Trix ans so may be able to find it.
Regards, Colin.
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Joined: 03/06/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,253 Location: Sydney, NSW
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Originally Posted by: EMD_GP7  Hornby Dublo locomotives according to my reference books and my memory have never used AC power, only 12v DC and clockwork. The Hornby ( and Trix ) collectors are more like "spoons" than the long flat slider used for stud contact.
British Trix used AC into the 50s in many models and used the "Trix Twin" system with 3-insulated rails with side collectors which could be moved to be on opposite sides to allow operation of two trains on the same track. The power connector track for this system is distinctive as it has 3 terminals !
There may be oddities in the ranges as one Trix product for the American market was 2-rail DC in the AC period with fine scale wheels to match up with local preferences.
As requested above a photo would help to identfy the set or the set part number would help as I have books covering both Hornby and Trix ans so may be able to find it.
Regards, Colin. Hi Colin, Thanks for the information. I will try and get some photos, however, I leave tomorrow for 2 weeks holiday. When I get back home I'll arrange for the photos. Regards Greg |
Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
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Joined: 23/11/2010(UTC) Posts: 193 Location: U.K. Midlands
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Hi Greg. Have a nice holiday and we will try to answer your question when you return. Photos will help a lot. Regards, Colin.
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Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC) Posts: 3,998 Location: Paremata, Wellington
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Hornby did indeed produce the range known as "Hornby ACHO" sometimes also under their Mecanno banner, exactly as described, and they have a quite distinctive logo and a small dedicated following. Produced early 60's through early 70's from what I can find. I think they were 2-rail AC however, in contrast to early Hornby Dublo which was 3-rail, but DC. Confused?  Just google "hornby acho" and you'll get plenty of info, but here's an example site... http://www.sulka.de/sites/moba/HA/achoE.htmlRemember also, as well as searching the 'web' from google, use their option along the top of their page to search "Images", lots of info to drool over and some very attractive models, example screenshot attached. And this one is also a helpful site when looking to identify Brands or Logo's.... http://www.train-jouet.com/catalogues/Listing_Eng.htmlHTH Steve NZ cookee_nz attached the following image(s): |
Cookee Wellington  |
 1 user liked this useful post by cookee_nz
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Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC) Posts: 15,870 Location: Gibraltar, Europe
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Hi Steve,
I believe Hornby Acho were in fact 2 rail DC. The only British trains in AC that I know of were early British Trix. |
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC) Posts: 3,998 Location: Paremata, Wellington
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Originally Posted by: RayF  Hi Steve,
I believe Hornby Acho were in fact 2 rail DC. The only British trains in AC that I know of were early British Trix. Ok well I stand to be corrected of course but somewhere along the way I was sure I saw an additional reference being made to the ability also to run two loco's independently (much like Faller did with their AMS slot cars) but using each half-wave of the cycle. And there is a very distinct image on their packaging certainly appearing like an AC sine-wave... So it appears the "AC" in ACHO means something other than Alternating Current?, I see also that their Transformers output DC & AC, so perhaps the AC is just for accessories. Ah the Internet eh, can't always believe everything you read. I'm surprised now in searching further how little detailed info I can find. This site in French offered some hope, but alas, did not clear up the mystery. ie WHAT is Hornby ACHO and why name it thus? http://fan-de-hornby-ach...acHO_autres-2412741.htmlAnd here is an information sheet for one of the transformers, sadly my high-school French lets me down.... http://www.train-jouet.c...ormateur%20Ref%20643.pdfThose jolly Frenchmen eh? Perhaps this was just to confound their German friends I look forward to this mystery being resolved by an expert, which I am happy to say, I am not.  |
Cookee Wellington  |
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Joined: 23/11/2010(UTC) Posts: 193 Location: U.K. Midlands
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Hi, To explain ,
Hornby DUBLO is 00 scale or Double-O or 4mm/foot scale.
Hornby AcHO (pronounced "Aitcho") is HO scale or 3.5 mm/foot scale.
So the two suffixes just refer to the scale.
AcHO used 0-12v DC control on two rails just like the contemporary Dublo and the controllers shown on the links look much like the Dublo controllers of the time. The fixed 15v AC referred to is for accessories such as point motors, signals etc.
The only early two train control I have come across is the Trix Twin system which used conventional DC but with 3-rails isolated with a common centre rail and separate control to two locomotives via the running rails. Tha locos had spoon like collectors that could be swapped round to opposite sides of the loco to give separate control. In fact if overhead supply was used to an Electric locomotive then control of three trains was possible. Two train control was also possible on other systems using an overhead supply but the trix system did it without.
I have not come across control of two trains via half-wave operation but half wave rectification was sometimes fitted to controlers to give slow running control for shunting etc. It would be interesting to see a system using this approach
Hope this helps, Colin.
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 2 users liked this useful post by EMD_GP7
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Joined: 04/06/2009(UTC) Posts: 20,289 Location: Scotland
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Hi Colin, I'm building a small Hornby Dublo layout and find the information very interesting...thanks. Ian.  Uploaded with ImageShack.us...
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 1 user liked this useful post by Ian555
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Joined: 23/11/2010(UTC) Posts: 193 Location: U.K. Midlands
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H Ian and all. The photo below shows examples from my collection of the typical makes discussed in this post.  Left Hornby Dublo 2-rail BR A4 pacific Golden Fleece Centre Hornby AcHO SNCF BB1609 Right British Trix BR 46231. Below is the Trix Twin arrangement of collector shoes. The side shoes can be swapped end for end to fit on the opposite side.  Hope this is of interest. Regards, Colin.
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 2 users liked this useful post by EMD_GP7
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Joined: 04/06/2009(UTC) Posts: 20,289 Location: Scotland
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Hi Colin, Thanks for the photo's. Ian.
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Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC) Posts: 3,998 Location: Paremata, Wellington
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Originally Posted by: EMD_GP7  Hi, To explain ,
Hornby DUBLO is 00 scale or Double-O or 4mm/foot scale.
Hornby AcHO (pronounced "Aitcho") is HO scale or 3.5 mm/foot scale.
So the two suffixes just refer to the scale.
AcHO used 0-12v DC control on two rails just like the contemporary Dublo and the controllers shown on the links look much like the Dublo controllers of the time. The fixed 15v AC referred to is for accessories such as point motors, signals etc.
The only early two train control I have come across is the Trix Twin system which used conventional DC but with 3-rails isolated with a common centre rail and separate control to two locomotives via the running rails. Tha locos had spoon like collectors that could be swapped round to opposite sides of the loco to give separate control. In fact if overhead supply was used to an Electric locomotive then control of three trains was possible. Two train control was also possible on other systems using an overhead supply but the trix system did it without.
I have not come across control of two trains via half-wave operation but half wave rectification was sometimes fitted to controlers to give slow running control for shunting etc. It would be interesting to see a system using this approach
Hope this helps, Colin. Brilliant, nice clear explanation. Just goes to show (in my case), a little knowledge is dangerous. I will admit though, I still find the 'Aitcho' thing a bit of a stretch of the imagination. I never thought to pronounce it like that, and their logo artwork always has the 'AC' in caps, slightly smaller than the 'HO' as though they are two parts of the one whole (if that makes sense). And from what I read, these were first conceived by Hornby France, would they have done a play on English pronunciation in that manner? You've given a good response, so please forgive me for remaining just 1% puzzled :-) Best Steve Parlez vous Märklin?  |
Cookee Wellington  |
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Joined: 14/12/2002(UTC) Posts: 800 Location: Newcastle NSW Australia
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For a full life story on Hornby & all their products, a series of over 15 books was produced over about 10 years from 1980 by New Cavendish Books. When I started collecting the series & the FD saw their price she almost filed for divorce but I consoled her by saying that I may be the only silly young fool in OZ who buys the full series& she started to see the value in years to come Each Book was priced up in the $100 area which for a young bloke with a family was a fortune in those days, They still bring similar prices second hand in shops these days.
Another expensive book I found '"The Trains on Avenue De Rumine " was all about Fulgurex & Count Colluzzi [the owner] Many years ago on our first European trip we were in Lausanne & asked at the Tourist Info centre if they knew if his collection was available for public viewing. They had never heard of the collection but a few phone calls later we had a appointment arranged to visit his Chateau right in the centre of town. On arrival a few days later we are standing outdside a 6 story Chateau overlooking over the city & met at he door by The Count himself who then showed us thru his house which had trains from floor to ceiling in every room on every floor of The Chateau. We were over awed with what we saw & the welcome we received from the Count. We remained in touch for many years after untill about 2005 when we heard that he had passed on. I belive that his collection ended up at the museum in Mendrisio CH.
I have digressed from the original start of this post but it is amazing where a purchase could take you in years to come.
Regards,
Tom in Oz.
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 1 user liked this useful post by Tom Jessop
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Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC) Posts: 3,998 Location: Paremata, Wellington
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Originally Posted by: Tom Jessop  For a full life story on Hornby & all their products, a series of over 15 books was produced over about 10 years from 1980 by New Cavendish Books. When I started collecting the series & the FD saw their price she almost filed for divorce but I consoled her by saying that I may be the only silly young fool in OZ who buys the full series& she started to see the value in years to come Each Book was priced up in the $100 area which for a young bloke with a family was a fortune in those days, They still bring similar prices second hand in shops these days.
Another expensive book I found '"The Trains on Avenue De Rumine " was all about Fulgurex & Count Colluzzi [the owner] Many years ago on our first European trip we were in Lausanne & asked at the Tourist Info centre if they knew if his collection was available for public viewing. They had never heard of the collection but a few phone calls later we had a appointment arranged to visit his Chateau right in the centre of town. On arrival a few days later we are standing outdside a 6 story Chateau overlooking over the city & met at he door by The Count himself who then showed us thru his house which had trains from floor to ceiling in every room on every floor of The Chateau. We were over awed with what we saw & the welcome we received from the Count. We remained in touch for many years after untill about 2005 when we heard that he had passed on. I belive that his collection ended up at the museum in Mendrisio CH.
I have digressed from the original start of this post but it is amazing where a purchase could take you in years to come.
Regards,
Tom in Oz. Wow Tom, what an honour that must have been. Good on you for having the nous to simply ask. Wonderful memory. Count Graf Coluzzi featured in the 1984 special english edition of the Marklin Magazin (imho an absolute MUST HAVE in any Marklin library, if you can find it) as attached here holding a Gauge II loco, a very impressive collection by all accounts even though most of the other items featured in this magazin are apparently from the "W Berendt" collection. cookee_nz attached the following image(s): |
Cookee Wellington  |
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Joined: 31/12/2010(UTC) Posts: 3,998 Location: Paremata, Wellington
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As for whether you have 'digressed', we NEVER digress here on the forum.
Quite simply, we boldly go where no man has gone before.... |
Cookee Wellington  |
 1 user liked this useful post by cookee_nz
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Joined: 14/12/2002(UTC) Posts: 800 Location: Newcastle NSW Australia
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Very true ,we all try to further each others learning & appreciation of life with Marklin.
When we originally asked at the tourist office I wasn't sure if we were even in the right city& it was just a hunch that I even had the right spelling of the company , as the saying goes Look in the Yellow pages & you will find something related.
Tom in Oz
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Joined: 03/06/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,253 Location: Sydney, NSW
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Hi Everyone, Finally I have received some photos of this Hornby Dublo set.  I would like comments regarding this set and if someone would have an idea of its value. Regards Greg This is the loco.  This is whole set - N.B. the controller  This is the box cover.  These are the documentations.  |
Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
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 1 user liked this useful post by Drongo
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Joined: 08/09/2010(UTC) Posts: 214 Location: Bowral, NSW, Australia
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Hi All
Could we please see or report on the reverse bottom side of the instructions, this will give the print date codes and quantities. Also can you supply a picture of the loco chassis without body. From this you can tell what year and about what month it was made. From what is shown so far the set was manufactured between 1949 - 1952, 12vdc of couse, never AC. Dublo were the first to use 12v DC in 1938 which became the industry standard post war. Also Dublo established the British out of scale/gauge 00 standard perpetuated in current Chinese Hornby.
Cheers Bryan.
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Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC) Posts: 6,764 Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Hi Greg,
Thanks for the excellent photos of that iconic train set. The model represents the engine Sir Nigel Gresley (named after the designer) as running between 1947 and 1949. The coaches represented typical Gresley teak sided coaches used on the main lines of the London and North Eastern Railway at that time. Though the set was manufactured some time after that.
As Bryan has pointed out, the date of manufacture can be revealed more precisely by viewing the type of motor, and perhaps the print dates of the instructions. Sets of this vintage seem to attract the same prices (or less) as does a current model Hornby engine only, available in hobby shops. And of course that new one has a plastic body, not a metal one, as is the case with No. 7. However, the condition of the articles and the box itself can introduce some variations.
Is that a slight disfigurement (coloured white) of the trailing truck under the cab of the loco?
regards Kimball |
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge. |
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Joined: 08/09/2010(UTC) Posts: 214 Location: Bowral, NSW, Australia
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Hi Greg
I did not notice that you were also after a price for your EDP1 set. This set as stated before was produced between 1949 - 53. If the motor is a 3/4 inch horse shoe type then it is the first type and probably the scarcest of all the Sir Nigels. In Australia during the production of this set we had a wool boom when the price of wool skyrocketed. Consequently there was much trade with the UK in manufactured goods including toys in exchange. This set in Australia is thus fairly common with the smaller 0-6-2T sets especially GWR and SR are harder to find and more valuable. The condition of Dublo is paramount in its value especially this type of EDP1 set. Prices in Australia for Dublo have halved for Dublo over the last 5 years, its only items in ex factory condition which bring the high prices now, basically because they are so rare to find in this condition. Looking at the set in the photo, it does have the white corrosion powder on the paintwork indicating storage in a damp area and thus deteriation. In the Australian Hornby club (HRCAA) we do have four major club auctions a year. An item in this condition in the auction would bring about $120 these days. If it was in ex-factory condition then up to $300 could be a price realised. The UK market is different as there are many more Dublo collectors generally. Ebay(UK) would be the best place to see a realistic price for the set as they come up all the time on this site. Just looking quickly for a set on the Ebay UK site in the prices realized section finds a similar boxed set that went for £ 75.99 in April this year.
Cheers Bryan
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Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC) Posts: 6,764 Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Hi Greg,
I agree with Bryan on pricing.
If a keen buyer were to look at this set, he or she would look for, whether present or not: 1. any corrosion on engine and carriages (some evident on engine) 2. state of carriage tinplate (shiny finish, marked, or otherwise tarnished?) 3. state of couplers (bent or broken?) 4. tender bakelite top (warped or misshapen?) 5. tender sides (bent?) 6. wheels (any corrosion or expansion?) 7. box items such as oil bottle and spanner (present?) 8. box inserts, covers, bottom and lid (torn or discolored?) 9. instruction booklets present? 10. controller (working?)
The answer to each of these questions will make a few dollars difference either way. But as Bryan says, these sets are reasonably common, and mostly show similar condition.
regards Kimball |
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge. |
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Joined: 03/06/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,253 Location: Sydney, NSW
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Hi Bryan & Kimball,
Thanks for the information - I will pass it on.
Greg
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Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
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