Joined: 30/11/2010(UTC) Posts: 725 Location: Stamford, CT USA
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Greetings, I am using the vintage Marklin "Blue" transformers that have the metal housing. Marklin number: 6153 30VA. Are these things 'ok' and safe to use, or should there a problem?   Thanks in advance, Paul
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Joined: 30/11/2010(UTC) Posts: 725 Location: Stamford, CT USA
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Oops, I ment to say, "could there be a potentially dangerous electrical problem??"
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Joined: 03/01/2003(UTC) Posts: 5,181 Location: Southern New Jersey, USA
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Paul:
The official word is that these transformers if used in the analog mode can damage some digital decoders since the 24v reversing pulse is not regulated. Having said that, I think the primary problem is that in Europe there is (or was) a variety of primary voltages (220 - 240) and if the tranny is used in the 240 system, it will generate a reverse pulse greater that 24v and fry some decoders. In the US, this does not seem to be a problem. I have several I use primarily on my set up and test bench and do not have a problem. If you are just using the 18v output as a power source for a digital controller, it will work fine but may be a little underpowered so that you don't get the full potential out of your system. If you are not digital and running only analog loks, it should be fine. |
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Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC) Posts: 18,771 Location: New Zealand
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The other issue with the blue metal transformers is that the insulation can break down over time, and therefore present an electrocution risk. Marklin had a transformer exchange program for some time, where you could exchange an older transformer for one of the newer white ones. I don't know if the exchange program is still available.
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Joined: 18/06/2003(UTC) Posts: 3,023 Location: Chennai, Tamil Nadu, INDIA
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Yes, the exchange program is still available from Marklin. I checked and posted some information just a few months ago.
Cheers, Ranjit |
Modelling in HO Scale - Era III & IV. K+M Track, Analogue + Digital _____________________________________________________________________________
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"If you have a garden and a library, you have everything you need" - Marcus Tullius Cicero "Nothing is as powerful as an idea whose time has come" - Victor Marie Hugo "If you can dream it, you can do it" - Walt Disney |
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Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,443 Location: DE-NW
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rschaffr wrote:The official word is that these transformers if used in the analog mode can damage some digital decoders since the 24v reversing pulse is not regulated. It's not regulated with current transformers either. Märklin say that transformers with a nominal voltage of 110 Volts must not be used. This one is for 115 Volts. The manuals for current locos say: "Possible operating systems: 6646/6647 Märklin Transformer, Märklin Delta, Märklin Digital, Märklin Systems." And: "Use only transformers rated for your local household power. Do not under any circumstances use transformers rated for 220 volts or 110 volts." In general: blue transformers were made for analogue locos - and a few volts more made the reversing pulse more reliable. Blue transformers for 220 Volts would be dangerous for current digital locos even on 220 Volts, so I avoid using them. The blue transformer on the picture is rated for 115 V while the current #6646 is rated for 120 V. So if your local household voltage is 120 V then the loco manual tells you not to use it. Re: exchange programme Why spend Euro 50 and postage for the old transformer when you can buy a new transformer for less than Euro 50? This could be a good deal if you need a Märklin 6646, but the Märklin 6647 (230 V) is cheaper without exchange programme. |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS  |
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Joined: 30/11/2010(UTC) Posts: 725 Location: Stamford, CT USA
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Thanks all for the response.
The transformer is rated for between 110 and 115 volts. I think I have 110 household voltage.
I have some real old timers, from the 70's that I will post on the forum too. I will have to check into the Marklin exchange program.
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Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,443 Location: DE-NW
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GG1 Fan wrote:I think I have 110 household voltage. Wikipedia wrote:In the United States[3] and Canada[4], national standards specify that the nominal voltage at the source should be 120 V and allow a range of 114 to 126 V (-5% to +5%). Historically 110, 115 and 117 volts have been used at different times and places in North America. Main power is sometimes spoken of as 110; however, 120 is the nominal voltage. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains_voltageMany people in Germany still say 220 V while it's 230 V for several years now ... |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS  |
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Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC) Posts: 15,870 Location: Gibraltar, Europe
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This is a case where the EU becomes a problem instead of helping to get a solution.
When the "experts" in brussels decided that Europe should have a common mains voltage, it was stipulated that it should be 230V +/- 10%. This was so that you could still claim to be at the European standard voltage, even though actually some countries still fed you 220V or 240V.
So when your country says that it was 220V but is now 230V, take it with a pinch of salt... |
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Joined: 27/07/2010(UTC) Posts: 174 Location: Kreis Kleve, Germany
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RayPayas wrote:This is a case where the EU becomes a problem instead of helping to get a solution.
When the "experts" in brussels decided that Europe should have a common mains voltage, it was stipulated that it should be 230V +/- 10%. This was so that you could still claim to be at the European standard voltage, even though actually some countries still fed you 220V or 240V.
So when your country says that it was 220V but is now 230V, take it with a pinch of salt... Hello Ray, As Tom pointed out, this is not a uniquely EU issue. But what´s more, every manufacturer worth its salt should have been able to update their products so as to tolerate a relatively small increase (or decrease as the case may be) of the supply voltage... 220V+10% (old standard)=242V, 230V+10%(new standard)=253V. So, under the old standard, any mains-fed product should withstand at least 242V on the mains. Adding manufacturing, design and component tolerances and a proper derating of components used means that normally there shouldn´t be any problems with the 230V standard, not even with older products produced under the 220V standard. Then again, some (decoder) manufacturers may be a bit skimpy or... simply "forgot" to apply proper component derating.. in order to save a few pennies may be? Best regards from winter wonderland  in Germany, Robert
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Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC) Posts: 15,870 Location: Gibraltar, Europe
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You're right there, Robert. I think it was the MFX decoders made by ESU which started the problem by being ultra sensitive to the reversing pulse. Older versions were more robust, and certainly all the Marklin 6080/6090/6090x decoders were OK with this.
The EU regulations have added a further complication in trying to "harmonise" the voltage, by merely encompassing all the existing European mains voltages within the 230V compromise, and widening the tolerance to fit! |
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
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Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,443 Location: DE-NW
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RayPayas wrote:The EU regulations have added a further complication in trying to "harmonise" the voltage, by merely encompassing all the existing European mains voltages within the 230V compromise, and widening the tolerance to fit! Not for Germany: it was 220 V +/- 10 %, then for a transition period it was 230 V +6 %/-10 %, now it's 230 V +/- 10 %. In the UK it was 230 +10 %/-6 % during the transition period. So tolerance wasn't widened, it was restricted for a transition period. A blue 220 V Märklin transformer running on 220 V can still kill an mfx decoder, so blame ESU or Märklin, not the EU. EU could have gone for 230 V +/- 6 % allowing all old devices from the 220 V (+/- 10 %) and 240 V (+/- 10 %) era to be used within their specifications. |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS  |
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Joined: 29/10/2011(UTC) Posts: 37 Location: South Africa
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If anyone has some of these old blue transformers and wants shot of them inbox me, I'll be interested
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Joined: 08/06/2009(UTC) Posts: 75 Location: White Mountains, NH
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Back to original question: are they safe?
Is the warning part of the lawyer's list of warnings intended to make it our fault if anything bad happens? Or is the risk real?
Who knows for sure, though I suspect that it is the lawyers conjuring up risks.
I have a bunch of blue transformers (and a couple of white 6646s) that I use for an analog layout, and am happy with the result.
Bill
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Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,443 Location: DE-NW
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Originally Posted by: BillJ  Back to original question: are they safe? What is "they": blue transformers in general or especially the #6153? In general: some blue transformers have an insulation inside that became brittle and is no longer safe. AFAIK this should be no problem with the #6153. |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS  |
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Joined: 14/12/2011(UTC) Posts: 58 Location: Katonah, NY
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Last things first: the Marklin transformer exchange program was discontinued in the US about 3 years ago. I've exchanged about 60 of these for my customers. Early in 2009 I was told that (again, in the US) this program had been discontinued.
As for using the 6153 and other transformers, I've used dozens (maybe hundreds) of the "old" blue transfomers with countless digital locomotives -- both in analog mode and to power digital components, and with all types of digital decoders -- and have never experienced any problems whatsoever, even when using the "over-voltage" signal to reverse digital locomotives on an analog circuit. I've occasionally measured the voltage of this reverse pulse and it can go as high as 30VAC -- still, never had any problems. As long as the cable is in good condition, and the plug looks OK (which can easily be replaced if necessary), you shouldn't have any problems. |
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