The latest German TEE bar cars and dining cars by Märklin were in length scale 1:97.5 (prototype length 27.5 m, model length 28.2 cm; ref. no. 00776 "Blauer Enzian").
Märklin only write "The cars have the new, longer length."

Most German dining and bar cars are longer (27.5 m vs. 26.2 m of passenger coaches).
Maybe the difference in height of windows is related to this different length scale (to maintain proportions of the windows).

The dining car of the era III Rheingold was an exception (26.4 m).
The SBB dining car has the same length, so this is no excuse here.

Since the new mould of the SBB dining coach was announced as one of the highlights of this set, it's a pity they messed it up a little bit.
I ordered this set to get the loco and the dining car. The car on the Suter pictures is acceptable for me.

Hi Mike,

I don't have your knowledge of the prototype, but looking at the photo's in the links you provided it appears about right to me. Maybe when it arrives and you run it the look may be ok?

Cheers....

Mike.

....Don't ask them to use their eyes , it seems that they spend their life with a calliper in their hands. Even in front of the "VENUS DE MILO" those guys will be abble to take a rule or any tool to measure it... ..they don't make MRR, they are working in a design office..!
...add a bit of a gentle neurosis probably due to the age.....It's entirely imaginary. Don't ask them to have a strong artistic streak, they don't have any.
( do you believe we are abble to say at a glance wether this object is 283 mm long or 294 mm (11mm difference = about 3% ) In a real train station, do you think that we are able to notice at a glance the exact lenght in meters..... or wether one coach is 1.3 meter longer or shorter than another coach ?)
Measuring is entering into an abstraction device...only.
Actually it's just a game involving catalogue announcements & forums on the net....
I agree with you , MRR is visual & tangible.

I'm sorry, but I'm bored with the subject of rivet counting. You like it, you buy it. You don't like it, don't buy it!

By all means tell us about the model, but there's no need to be pedantic about absolute dimensions. In this topic, even the rivet counters can't agree about the right length for a coach...

In defense of Mike C.

Instead of attacking and "killing the messenger", I believe that some people on this thread should at least be thankful to Mike for his keen knowledge of the prototypes which he so willingly shares with us. Who else, aside "H0", does this on this forum?

I also have ordered this Bavaria model, especially for the locomotive, because otherwise, I would not have wanted the curtailed cars.

Thank you, Mike, for your enlightening contributions, and please continue to keep us informed about all of the "botch jobs" that you may be able to spot in the new releases! There is plenty of competition out there. Luckily, we have other makes from which to choose for modeling our trains (LS Models, Roco, Rivarossi, etc.).

Märklin have a good reputation for the quality of printing.

This year they produced new printing errors (VT 08.5 and Hertha BSC class 101 loco).
The Re 10/10 was critized for misplaced prints.

It doesn't take a ruler to compare the positions of markings between prototype and model, checking the positions relative to e. g. window frames, door handles, or other "landmarks". Wouldn't really cost more to print at the correct position.

This thread is about the new TEE Bavaria set. All three coaches have the same length scale, the "new, longer scale" which is 1:93.6 for most (and for these) coaches.

Märklin have a reputation of making models that look correct. The new dining car looks good, but the windows look too small.
This deviation was not visible on the "handmade sample" (but we all (should) know that these "handmade samples" sometimes are bought from a competitor).

Switzerland is an important market for Märklin. This year they partially wrecked their reputation.
Many customers were disappointed by blackened pantographs, "incorrect" colours of wires on the roof or footsteps.
Disappointed customers are less likely to pre-order 2011 new items.

The good news: the set in question doesn't have blackened pantographs.

Thank for the infomation, Mike and Tom. I like the set, and if I can find the money I will buy it. I bought the BR210 (39189) some time ago, so it would make sense to me withg this set (I guess my wife thinks otherwise).

no comment
John

no comment

John

Reading one of Mike's posts above made me realise I hadn't actually given my opinion on the model, which I fully intended to do. Sorry!

This was a set which I had down from the beginning of the year as one of my purchases for this year. Unfortunately, coming right at the end of the year and being quite expensive compared to a single loco, I could not find money in my budget for it, so it might have to wait for another time.

I think the set is beautiful! The Re 4/4 I looks very nice in the TEE colours, and seems to be well done, though I'm no expert (for that I rely on people like Mike and Stephan). The coaches look good, and I was not aware they should be a different length, and would have been quite happy with them anyway. I would have been a bit worried about running them on my R1 curves, so longer coaches would not have been acceptable for me.

The issue with the size of the windows would not deter me from buying it, though I do concede it looks a bit unusual.

Thanks to Stefan for posting the photo, and once again, thanks to Mr. Roder at Bahnorama for posting the detailed photo(s) on his website. The Restaurant coach, on it's own, does not look too bad. The problem does, however, become much more noticeable when the Restaurant coach is next to other coaches which have a better rendition of the window heights.

My intent has never been to find something wrong with every model. This thread was to inform members that the item had been released. At the same time, I made a basic observation based on the first photos of the actual production model (as shown on eBay and Swiss dealer Suter-Meggen).

The complete 26557 Set (Photo taken from Bahnorama.ch):


Original SBB WRm coach:


This thread did not go the way that many of these threads have been going until one member decided to throw a wrench into the gears (originally said "monkey into a wrench" (a poor pun)) and attack "rivet counters".

I stand by the original post and my initial assessment of the model. The final production model of the WRm is not as well rendered as was the "Handmuster". That is the basis for my disappointment with this item.
I am, however, looking forward to the Set because the Lok looks very nice. As far as I know, this is the first model to accurately represent the Lok with one SBB and one DB pantograph. Neither the Hag, Metropolitan, nor Lima models have had this detail in production. I might have preferred to have a model with the same motorization as the 39421, but will wait to see how the new model performs in person.
I cannot ask Maerklin to change the appearance of the WRm model, as the Set has already been delivered. I will likely contact them and ask them to correct the model mould so that it is correct if they ever do release it in either it's original red or more recent Eurofima (C1) livery. Whether my emails are sent to a special "trash" folder or not, what I do is for the benefit of all modellers and not just for myself, and it surprises me how frequently I am attacked for trying to make the effort.

I look forward to a few nice Swiss models every year (if that). I would hope that the companies would make the effort to make those models as prototypically as possible, accepting the need for the occasional compromise. A detail like the appearance of the windows of a coach, the paint on a lok, the handrails on another lok are minor and could have been avoided with a few minutes more attention to detail. I guess my main criticism is with the lack of proper continuity and follow through in the development and production of models that I hold close to my heart.

Yes, model railroading is fun. I enjoy looking at my models. I love running them from time to time, especially when I set up a multi room "teppichbahn" and can enjoy watching long trains run all over the basement. Each year, I anticipate the release (and reception) of these new additions to my collection. Not all have faults or if they do, most are still completely acceptable. Unfortunately, many of them do have shortcomings and I should be able to discuss those details in a forum where I am one of a number of equal members. The main difference is that I am attacked for making a statement, something that does not happen when other members post topics. That is what makes these topics tiresome, and it is my opinion that this is started by certain individuals who wish to distract the general membership from any critical discussion of Maerklin products. I note that in similar threads in other forums, the models have been criticized for motorization (SDS vs Buehler), for digital (ESU vs other/Maerklin) and those criticisms have not been attacked in the same way that my comments about the external visual appearance have been.

As far as this topic, I think that I have said all that needs to be said. The only thing that I could possibly add would be photos of the actual model once I have received it as well as photos of the Maerklin Lok with corresponding 1:87 coaches from other companies.

Regards

Mike C

Ray,

I was not referring to you. Your post came later and was partially in response to the one that I was referring to.
"Throwing the monkey into the wrench" was a silly word play on "throwing the wrench (or the shoe (sabot)) into the gears"

Regards

Mike C

Thanks for pointing this out, it escapes my mind that this is how M* calculate their math.

I would have thought "new, longer length" means closer-to-actual scale eg. 1/93,5 instead of the previous 1/100. Seems the length of 28.2 cm maximum is the key instead of the scale.

No, I don't mind shortened coaches made to a smaller scale length - but the inconsistency on how this was applied baffles me - particularly when applied within the same consist set (of coaches).

I know that the Hecht cars and Umbauwagens are closer to their true scale length - being shorter in length compared to modern passenger cars, so I don't mind those despite looking probably a bit long compared to the latter but...

I would have thought up to now, that the German restaurant car (such as in TEE example) is of exactly the same length as the passenger coaches.

Now, knowing it's not true, I feel that I had been misled and disappointed somewhat...

OTOH I do realize that M* did this to simplify their tooling.. easier just to make them all to the same maximum length.
Since the current "new, longer length" toolings are considerably new and Marklin is yet to make enough money out of them - I'm afraid we're stuck with them for now.

With the SBB restaurant car in this set, very, very unlikely that they'll do something to correct it... The mould is simply too new - even if they are plastic, it'll be too costly for them to modify.

Trying to keep on topic what I dont like about the coaches (as shown above in the pic)are the corridor ends and the roofs.

Both look cheap and plasticky (if there is such a word) and I would need to do some weathering or re painting. The Loco does look nice however. So I would not buy this set but not because of the length of the coaches or the windows but just that I dont think they are worth the cash. The loco (as said) I would however buy.

I agree with Ray in that it is all a matter of personal taste and I appreciate Mikes comments on everything Swiss.

dave

I guess my issue was that I read too much into the marketing hype of the "new, longer length" concept.



Whether or not I'm buying this set is still a big IF, not because the issue with the window size, but more with the pricing, timing delivery and stock availability.
If I missed this one, I think I'd be happy to just settle with 37044. Or otherwise wait a couple years until they decided to release another TEE Re4/4 I.

1/ You don't have the model....how can you deal with photos (bad photo)....instead of the real model ! (blurred photo...on which we cannot even distinguish the window frame....window frames are different from one type of coach to another...)
2/ you say : "The undersized windows are much more noticeable when the diner is next to the other coaches"....pffff......are you sure that have the same size of wondows ? Since you are critizing....I suppose you are.... .
BTW did you know the exact prototypical size in centimeters of the windows...on restau coach...on each kind of coach....I suppose not...otherwise you had mentionned it already...

Hi gents

I got mine today and it looks great! The restaurant car fits in perfectly with the paint scheme of the german cars.

the locomotive is also really nice.

i'll enjoy this set. Too bad the car signs are Munich to Zurich and not the other way around. Could of done a switch around with the other earlier Bavaria set on my layout.

I'm sure you will all enjoy this set too!

Kurt

My set is in the mail from Lokshop. Looking forward to it. With all due respect, I am not interested in the window size etc. etc. I like trains for a more primitive type of passion. I believe that the Marklin ones are better designed and built than any other. I have HAG, Roco, Rivarossi, Piko, Fleischmann, Brawa, Lima, Acme and ViTrains in my collection and Marklin sits on top, for my personal opinion.

The scale issue has been covered in dozen of other threads and we should leave it out definitively: you like 1:87? fine. you like 1:100? fine. To everyone each own.

I appreciate Mike C knowledge and comments but for me such small details will never be the ones determining if I buy or not a model: that decision is for my soon-to-be wife only! Now.. let's hope when the set shows up she is still at work and I have time to "hide" it in between my other trains :)

Armando


Thank you for the very eloquent comments regarding Mike C's reports on this site. Whether it be
about Swiss trains/models, or whatever, his views are straight from the shoulder. Something
the "other critics" on this board can't stand. There seems to be an epidemic of who can shout the loudest is the winner. NOT!

Thanks again Armando Now I can go back to read the rest of this topic.

gene

Here is a photo of my Liliput WRm (bought 1984) next to a Roco Avmz (2008). The Liliput WRm had the correct aspect ratio for the windows. You can see that the height is similar to that of the Roco Avmz, which also has the correct aspect ratio for the window. The Roco does have one flaw, the dark gray/black skirt is a little small and the beige stripe is too thin.



Here is a photo of the same Liliput WRm, this time next to a Liliput Bcm coach. The Liliput SBB Coaches (Am, Bm, Bcm) all had incorrect window aspect ratios. The window bottom is at the correct height, but the window height should extend to about 1-1.5mm below the roofline.

It doesn't take much deviance before such a feature becomes noticeable and the more frequent this type of flaw occurs, the more irritating it gets. I don't expect perfection, but I expect more than what they have been delivering in these instances. It all comes down to the difference between "it's a nice model" and "it's an amazing model". Personally, I would take amazing over nice any day, especially at the prices that they charge today.

Regards

Mike C

Some people probably like to row in the air ... We can make a photo telling anything we want...

Dealing with photo must be done in a VERY VERY rigorous way....(like TOM HO has tried to do...without picture of the real prototype....unfortunately)
There are so many optical effects, lense abberations, etc.........
we don't see the window on real prototype photo in a same way than on a model photo....On the photo of a prototype we tend to see the whole window/the whole gap, on the photo of the model we tend to see the glass surface only...
On models , window frames cannot be at scale , they often are oversized (excepted if you pay 400 E for one handycraft metal model of coach), sometimes not to depict the window frame may be even better ...( a matter of taste)

Edited by user 07 November 2010 09:20:17(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

There are those who continue to deny the fact that the windows are too short... Even though it was reported and has been discussed in at least two international forums. It must be because of optical effects or lense abberations. Yes, the windows are too small because the frames are oversized... Ok, you lost me there...

I did not pay 400 EUR for my Liliput or Bachmann-Liliput WRm. Neither will I pay that price for the announced model of the same coach from LS Models (due out early next year). Yet, all three of those manufacturers managed to get the aspect right.

I challenge you to explain the "Bullseye" windows on the Lightsteel baggage car or the windows on the ARDm bar coach from the 42991 Set using your theories.

A simple solution. Post photos of the restaurant coach next to the other coaches of the set.
As soon as I receive my Set (in about 4 to 6 weeks), I will post the following photos:

1) Maerklin WRm in consist with the other coaches
2) Maerklin WRm on box to compare with image of prototype handmuster used for photo
3) Maerklin WRm alongside Liliput or Liliput-Bachmann WRm
4) Maerklin WRm alongside classic 4068

In the interim, here is a photo taken from an eBay listing which shows the WRm coupled to one of the other coaches in the set:
http://ebay.hhost.de/showpicture.php?id=265571
Auction: http://cgi.ebay.de/Markl...1961c883c#ht_1660wt_1141

If anybody wants to see a schema of how the WRm coach should appear, check the www.lsmodels.com website. I think that the WRm diagram has been shifted to the second page due to recent additions to the new announcements.

You cannot change or deny the fact that the model, like the earlier bar coach, has windows with the incorrect aspect ratio. But I gotta give you props for trying.

Respectfully,

Mike C

Mike,

What do you think of putting posts under the "review section" when we talk about a model's appearance.
Your post states: Maerklin 26557 TEE Bavaria Set Delivered in Switzerland, you than go on about the appearance of the coach.
Hopefully this will greatly reduce the criticism you get every time you're posting a topic.

I'm just trying to help.

John