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river6109		#1 Posted : 22 August 2010 18:43:26(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC) Posts: 14,875 Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square		Some of my locos have different logos on their housing. Example: Roco Re 6/6 = one side SBB - CFF - other side SBB - FFS Märklin Ae 6/6 = SBB - CFF both sides Märklin Ae 6/6 = SBB - FFS both sides Why is this ?
		https://www.youtube.com/river6109 https://www.youtube.com/6109river 5 years in Destruction mode 50 years in Repairing mode
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Unholz		#2 Posted : 22 August 2010 19:40:30(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC) Posts: 1,436 Location: Switzerland		Probably because it is prototypical... SBB is the German abbreviation of the Swiss Federal Railways, CFF the French, and FFS the Italian version. In earlier days, most locomotives (and other vehicles) had SBB CFF on one side and SBB FFS on the other. However, some locos (mainly Ae 6/6) had SBB FFS on both sides because they were mostly used on the Gotthard line and thus mostly seen in action by German and Italian speaking engine crews and onlookers. Others which ran in Western Switzerland had SBB CFF on both sides. Here is a rather recent list of the state of the Ae 6/6 fleet (in service or not, with or without coat-of-arms, green/red/Cargo livery, etc.): http://www.bahnforum.org/dany/ae66/alterstand.html
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mike c		#3 Posted : 23 August 2010 01:51:30(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC) Posts: 8,232 Location: Montreal, QC		Stephan, Thank you for this explanation of the differences. I remember my 3050 had SBB CFF on one side and SBB FFS on the other. My 3638 (same prototype) had SBB CFF on both sides. I was not sure whether the 3050 was prototypical. The 3638 had the same inscriptions as when I saw the lok in person. Was the choice of inscription solely based on where the lok was stationed, or on in which part of Switzerland the chosen Canton (crest) was from? I remember seeing a photo of at least one train where the modern logo was also in a different order than <+> SBB CFF FFS. I think it had CFF SBB FFS and the train was red. I don't remember if it was a regular unit or maybe on the Geneva - La Plaine line. Mike C
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TimR		#4 Posted : 23 August 2010 04:18:09(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/08/2007(UTC) Posts: 1,752 Location: Jakarta		That is another new thing that I learn from the forum today.
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5HorizonsRR		#5 Posted : 23 August 2010 04:52:52(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 05/12/2004(UTC) Posts: 2,976 Location: CA, USA		Fascinating- thanks Stefan!
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mascagni		#6 Posted : 23 August 2010 16:07:17(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/07/2002(UTC) Posts: 826 Location: Tallahassee, FL USA		Hi: It seems that the Swiss Federal Railways is very sensitive to the languages spoken in the areas that their trains operate. The example above is a good one dealing with the labels on the locomotives themselves. In another thread: https://www.marklin-user...aspx?g=posts&t=16707 there is a video of the new ICN model from Roco which allows you to hear the various announcements programmed into the Loksound sound module. The announcements are multilingual, and the actual languages used in them are a function of where they are given. If you take the ICN from St. Gallen to Geneve Aeroport (the full W-E run), the station announcements are in German-French-English, and then the turn to French-German-English as one passes Biel/Bienne which is essentially the marker for the linguistic frontier. I have never taken a train from Zürich to Milano, but I assume that when one crosses that linguistic frontier (in a tunnel connecting Canton Uri with Cantone Ticino), that the same thing occurs. The big difference is that Italian may not be used in Zürich at all and only appear when it is clear that the train is entering the Italian speaking area.-MM
		Michael Mascagni, Tallahassee If I weren't a Mathematician, I'd be a Violinist.--Albert Einstein
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mike c		#7 Posted : 23 August 2010 20:42:58(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC) Posts: 8,232 Location: Montreal, QC		As far as the north-south divide. I clearly recall hearing German and Italian Announcements for trains via the Gotthard in Luzern and Arth-Goldau. Trains from Luzern in direction of Bern had announcements in German and French (SBB). I imagine that announcements in Lugano and Bellinzona (for example) have announcements in Italian first and in German second. There was a Website with Swiss train photos which added a section for sounds a few years back. I don't remember the name and the link is somewhere in the favorites list on my old (defective) hard drive. If I ever find it again, I will post it. In the interim, there is a nice selection of Swiss announcements on www.durchzug.info Regards Mike C
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Unholz		#8 Posted : 23 August 2010 23:03:54(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC) Posts: 1,436 Location: Switzerland		mike c wrote: Was the choice of inscription solely based on where the lok was stationed, or on in which part of Switzerland the chosen Canton (crest) was from? I remember seeing a photo of at least one train where the modern logo was also in a different order than <+> SBB CFF FFS. I think it had CFF SBB FFS and the train was red. I don't remember if it was a regular unit or maybe on the Geneva - La Plaine line. Mike, you are probably right about the individual crests also having influence on the choice of CFF and/or FFS. Some more research on this topic may be necessary, and from a short check I also gather that changes might have occurred during the 50 years lifespan of some Ae 6/6's. And yes also to the CFF + SBB variant which was used on the two (green) BDe 4/4 + (A)Bt units 1301/1302 + 1801/1802 which exclusively operated on the short and "French speaking" DC line between Geneva and La Plaine. The whole topic shows that we have a certain "language sensitivity" in Switzerland which should ensure that the linguistic minorities also are adequately represented on the federal rolling stock.
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Hemmerich		#9 Posted : 23 August 2010 23:22:09(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/04/2003(UTC) Posts: 2,734 Location: ,		deleted Edited by user 27 August 2010 18:38:08(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified
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mike c		#10 Posted : 23 August 2010 23:39:32(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC) Posts: 8,232 Location: Montreal, QC		Hemmerich wrote: mascagni wrote: ... hear the various announcements programmed into the Loksound sound module. Which "Loksound sound module"??? Guess what they announce in this train: Tilo As usual, this poster makes some unhelpful comment where a simple reminder (correction) that the (ICN) model that Mr Mascagni refers to is actually equipped with a Zimo decoder would have sufficed. As far as the Tilo train, I guess that the announcements are primarily in Italian, unless of course it is one of the Tilo trainsets being used in another part of Switzerland, in which case, this would already have been covered in the discussion above. Mike C
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Hemmerich		#11 Posted : 24 August 2010 01:31:44(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/04/2003(UTC) Posts: 2,734 Location: ,		deleted Edited by user 27 August 2010 17:29:10(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified
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nevw		#12 Posted : 24 August 2010 01:45:48(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 27/08/2005(UTC) Posts: 11,071 Location: Murrumba Downs QLD		QUick , where can I get a Flak Jacket and tin hat as war has broken out again. Stuffing up another thread and who is making personal attacks to who? Game Score: Canada 1 germany 0
		NOt wearing the Pink Pinny, which is hard to see and now I have a white Pinny which also is hard to see against MY pure white Skin Still have 2 new shiny tin Hips that is badly in Need of Repair matching rusting tin shoulders and a hose pipe on the aorta Junior member of the Banana Club, a reformist and an old Goat with a Bad memory, loafing around
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mike c		#13 Posted : 24 August 2010 01:54:00(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC) Posts: 8,232 Location: Montreal, QC		Hemmerich wrote: My question was intended to determine the cause for (t)his statement. It looked -not for the first time- like some incorrect or misleading information was published and Mr. Mascagni just picked that up "inadvertadly". BTW: If mike c knew it so well, why didn't he correct him right away on his first response? But instead and as usual, he starts again one of his totally unneccessary personal attacks! mike c wrote: ... unless of course it is one of the Tilo trainsets being used in another part of Switzerland, Is the destination sign of THAT train so badly readable? If you would check the original thread about the ICN, you will find that I corrected the posting where I originally referred to the sound decoder as being from ESU. Living in North America, we are often the last to get details about coming models. The original information that I had was that Roco was using OEM ESU decoders. For some reason, Roco has decided to use Zimo decoders in some models. I do not know if this means that they are no longer working with ESU or whether this only applies to some models and the ESU cooperation will resume in the future. I was referring to the language of the announcement and not to the destination sign on the train itself. If the photo was taken in Luino, the announcement probably would have been for Bellinzona, even though the sign still said Luino. For those who are not familiar with Swiss geography, Luino is an Italian town on the south of Lago Maggiore. The line was built from Bellinzona to Luino to facilitate traffic to Torino and Genoa. At one point, it was considered as the possible southern point of the Gotthard route, but the SBB and FS decided that Chiasso/Como would be preferred, as it was on the line to Milano and further south. Please post all comments regarding the ICN in the appropriate thread, which has not yet been blocked. This thread is about the inscriptions (markings) on SBB loks. Regards Mike C
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mike c		#14 Posted : 24 August 2010 03:20:16(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC) Posts: 8,232 Location: Montreal, QC		I don't know whether this is the appropriate thread or whether there may already be a thread about SBB EWI (EW-I) coaches, but I found this list of SBB Einheitswagen coach models: http://gamos81.altervist...ro/Carrozze/SBB/EW-I.htm The only missing information is that for Hag models, which can be found via Stefan Unholz' Hag UNUM database. Regards Mike C
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mascagni		#15 Posted : 24 August 2010 15:27:27(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/07/2002(UTC) Posts: 826 Location: Tallahassee, FL USA		My apologies to all for having assumed the ICN had a Loksound decoder. I stand corrected, but my apology is mainly for the chatter that it spawned. Enjoy your trains, both model and real. Be good, do good work, and keep in touch.--MM
		Michael Mascagni, Tallahassee If I weren't a Mathematician, I'd be a Violinist.--Albert Einstein
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Hemmerich		#16 Posted : 25 August 2010 05:32:18(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/04/2003(UTC) Posts: 2,734 Location: ,		- Edited by user 19 November 2010 01:54:27(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified
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Bigdaddynz		#17 Posted : 25 August 2010 07:27:31(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC) Posts: 18,771 Location: New Zealand		Hemmerich wrote: .....is another shameful behaviour. Lutz, Juhan and the Moderators will be the sole judges of good and bad behaviour in the forum, and we do not need your help. Please desist from deliberate provocative statements like this one. Do it again, and you will be taking (another) enforced holiday. Addition by Webmaster - some of the off-topic comments by a couple of other members later in this topic are not good either, please refrain from personal comments about other members. Thanks for your edits Juhan. I was out for most of tonight, so did not see some of the extra comments until late. As always, it is best to use the forum report function to report troublesome posts, rather than clogging threads up with it. Cheers. /Bigdaddynz Edited by user 26 August 2010 05:47:17(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified
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TimR		#18 Posted : 25 August 2010 07:34:01(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/08/2007(UTC) Posts: 1,752 Location: Jakarta		mike c wrote: Hemmerich wrote: mascagni wrote: ... hear the various announcements programmed into the Loksound sound module. Which "Loksound sound module"??? Guess what they announce in this train: Tilo As usual, this poster makes some unhelpful comment where a simple reminder (correction) that the (ICN) model that Mr Mascagni refers to is actually equipped with a Zimo decoder would have sufficed. Apparently questioning the meaning of your highness' post can now defined as "personal attack". Hemmerich wrote: There is (not just to me) not any reason for Michael to apologize about referring to information that he apparently picked up from a false statement which had been spread by somebody else without real knowledge. The fact that this person didn't correct him right away, but attacked me instead is another shameful behaviour. Wow! Those were some very strong opinions posted against a fellow member in just one paragraph. There is no reason for Michael to apologize, I know of one person that should have apologized for wrecking yet another informative thread, and I also know of one shameful behaviour, er no, make it shameless, being repeated over and over in every SBB threads in the past 18 months. Maybe it's time to defect to 2-rail to avoid this ruckuss.
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nevw		#19 Posted : 25 August 2010 07:58:59(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 27/08/2005(UTC) Posts: 11,071 Location: Murrumba Downs QLD		Bigdaddynz wrote: Hemmerich wrote: .....is another shameful behaviour. Lutz, Juhan and the Moderators will be the sole judges of good and bad behaviour in the forum, and we do not need your help. Please desist from deliberate provocative statements like this one. Do it again, and you will be taking (another) enforced holiday. make it a big one while you are at it. ANd maybe his "Signature" should be changed from : This posting might be subject to change or removal at any time. to This member might be subject to (Tempory) removal at any time.
		NOt wearing the Pink Pinny, which is hard to see and now I have a white Pinny which also is hard to see against MY pure white Skin Still have 2 new shiny tin Hips that is badly in Need of Repair matching rusting tin shoulders and a hose pipe on the aorta Junior member of the Banana Club, a reformist and an old Goat with a Bad memory, loafing around
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nevw		#20 Posted : 25 August 2010 08:04:32(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 27/08/2005(UTC) Posts: 11,071 Location: Murrumba Downs QLD		Tim, I presume that you are referring to Lutzie moving to 2 rail??
		NOt wearing the Pink Pinny, which is hard to see and now I have a white Pinny which also is hard to see against MY pure white Skin Still have 2 new shiny tin Hips that is badly in Need of Repair matching rusting tin shoulders and a hose pipe on the aorta Junior member of the Banana Club, a reformist and an old Goat with a Bad memory, loafing around
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David Dewar		#21 Posted : 25 August 2010 13:52:13(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 7,455 Location: Scotland		nevw wrote: Tim, I presume that you are referring to Lutzie moving to 2 rail?? Shares in Hornby have just fallen I an still finding parts of this thread interesting and informative so hopefully the good posts can keep going. dave
		Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
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Macfire		#22 Posted : 25 August 2010 14:10:10(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 04/11/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,652 Location: New Zealand		Hemmerich wrote: Blah blah Ad Nauseam Hemmerich wrote: Blah blah blah Ad Nauseam Hemmerich wrote: Blah blah blah blah Ad Nauseam Hemmerich wrote: Blah blah blah blah blah Ad Nauseam...... Lutz..... Oh forget it............. You are just not worth the effort
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Macfire		#23 Posted : 25 August 2010 14:11:49(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 04/11/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,652 Location: New Zealand		TimR wrote: That is another new thing that I learn from the forum today. I quite agree Tim. Thanks guys for an interesting topic
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Jeremy Palmer		#24 Posted : 25 August 2010 15:05:30(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/04/2005(UTC) Posts: 2,464 Location: St. Michael, Barbados		David Dewar wrote: nevw wrote: Tim, I presume that you are referring to Lutzie moving to 2 rail?? Shares in Hornby have just fallen LMAO . Good one David.
		Jeremy. 1). If at first you don't succeed, bungee jumping mightn't be for you. 2). The early bird may get the worm, but it's the second rat that gets the cheese.
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Unholz		#25 Posted : 25 August 2010 16:09:01(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 29/07/2007(UTC) Posts: 1,436 Location: Switzerland		In an attempt to get back to somewhere near the original question : This is a (not so good) picture of the railcar mentioned by Mike with "reversed sequence" CFF + SBB because French is the standard language on the line where this vehicle was used: http://www.flickr.com/ph...annes-j-smit/4083542712/
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mascagni		#26 Posted : 25 August 2010 17:03:22(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/07/2002(UTC) Posts: 826 Location: Tallahassee, FL USA		Thank's Stefan for returning to the original topic. I also point out that in Cantone Grigioni, where the RhB runs, the announcements are handled in much the same way. There, the main languages are German, Italian, and Romansh, and depending where you go, the signs in the stations and the announcements in the trains have different linguistic precedence. In addition, the trains have the name of the RhB in all three languages somewhere on them: German: Rhätische Bahn, Italian: Ferrovia Retica, Romansh: Viafier Retica. Ciao.--MM
		Michael Mascagni, Tallahassee If I weren't a Mathematician, I'd be a Violinist.--Albert Einstein
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mike c		#27 Posted : 25 August 2010 20:40:38(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC) Posts: 8,232 Location: Montreal, QC		Unholz wrote: In an attempt to get back to somewhere near the original question : This is a (not so good) picture of the railcar mentioned by Mike with "reversed sequence" CFF + SBB because French is the standard language on the line where this vehicle was used: http://www.flickr.com/ph...annes-j-smit/4083542712/ I think I remember some photos at www.polier.ch under P. Sutter. Was the RAe 4/8 1022 or 1023 also at some point having the CFF before the SBB and FFS? Regards Mike C Edited by user 26 August 2010 04:44:54(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified
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H0		#28 Posted : 25 August 2010 22:05:25(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,444 Location: DE-NW		Hemmerich wrote: there are even discussions about Uhlenbrock being one of their suppliers now. I have one Roco loco that had an Uhlenbrock decoder ex works. Hemmerich wrote: and since we're here in the HO forum This is the H0 forum, not the HO forum (after the detailled EC vs. IC discussions I think this is worth to be mentioned). Four months left 'til "Ho ho ho" ...
		Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Hemmerich		#29 Posted : 26 August 2010 03:57:42(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/04/2003(UTC) Posts: 2,734 Location: ,		deleted Edited by user 27 August 2010 18:39:46(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified
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mike c		#30 Posted : 26 August 2010 04:50:29(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC) Posts: 8,232 Location: Montreal, QC		Lutz, the topic was about the inscriptions on locomotives and perhaps also rolling stock. The fact that the French and Italian websites of the railway do not include the other letters in the corporate name is not really related to the discussion. The modern trainsets of the Geneva - La Plaine line are currently labelled with the <+> symbol and the letters CFF, without any mention of the SBB or FFS. ... and now that the topic is back on the original topic, can we please keep it there... Regards Mike C Webmaster comment - Thank you Mike for getting it back on track. Earlier non-topic posts in this topic will not be deleted - They will serve as examples of how things can go wrong if you mix up the view of a person regarding models and a personal view of the poster. Edited by moderator 26 August 2010 22:01:15(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified
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Hemmerich		#31 Posted : 27 August 2010 20:43:30(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/04/2003(UTC) Posts: 2,734 Location: ,		- Edited by user 19 November 2010 01:55:14(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified
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mike c		#32 Posted : 28 August 2010 01:40:31(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC) Posts: 8,232 Location: Montreal, QC		No Lutz, I was referring to this one: http://www.railfaneurope...50/CFF_Bem_550_004-6.jpg http://swissrail.fotopic.net/p54580480.html It is possible that one or more trainsets have received the full <+> SBB CFF FFS logo since the last time I was in Geneva (2004). The last photo linked here was 2008 and bahnbilder.de shows photos in the RER livery as recently as Summer 2009. Regards Mike C
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Hemmerich		#33 Posted : 31 August 2010 22:34:55(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/04/2003(UTC) Posts: 2,734 Location: ,		- Edited by user 19 November 2010 01:55:53(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified
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Macfire		#34 Posted : 01 September 2010 01:46:10(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 04/11/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,652 Location: New Zealand		Hemmerich wrote: deleted !
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Macfire		#35 Posted : 01 September 2010 01:51:35(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 04/11/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,652 Location: New Zealand		Hemmerich wrote: mike c wrote: No Lutz, I was referring to this one: That much for "currently" This posting might be subject to change or removal at any time. Not any more!
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pserup		#36 Posted : 06 September 2010 09:14:54(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 02/08/2006(UTC) Posts: 897 Location: Ramløse, Denmark		Hemmerich wrote: mike c wrote: No Lutz, I was referring to this one: That much for "currently"
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nevw		#37 Posted : 06 September 2010 11:18:58(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 27/08/2005(UTC) Posts: 11,071 Location: Murrumba Downs QLD		pserup wrote: Hemmerich wrote: mike c wrote: No Lutz, I was referring to this one: That much for "currently" AGAIN
		NOt wearing the Pink Pinny, which is hard to see and now I have a white Pinny which also is hard to see against MY pure white Skin Still have 2 new shiny tin Hips that is badly in Need of Repair matching rusting tin shoulders and a hose pipe on the aorta Junior member of the Banana Club, a reformist and an old Goat with a Bad memory, loafing around
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river6109		#38 Posted : 27 September 2010 14:50:04(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC) Posts: 14,875 Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square		To all, I'm pleased my topic has aroused many answers. Another observation has made its mark. John
		https://www.youtube.com/river6109 https://www.youtube.com/6109river 5 years in Destruction mode 50 years in Repairing mode
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