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why are 2 track users so negative about marklin
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H0
#51
Posted :
04 September 2008 03:03:23(UTC)
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Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,463
Location: DE-NW
Earth is flat.
Pigs can fly.
Three-rail is more expensive.
Two-rail is more realistic.
It's been said before: it's prejudice.
Three-rail is Märklin and Märklin is three-rail. And anything M* has ever made bad will be held against M*.
Lima has made bad models in the past, Piko has made bad models in the past. But nobody blames two-rail because of that.
Three-rail is seen as Märklin only by two-railers though many companies offer three-rail models.
Two-rail is cheaper for conventional (analog) layouts coz three-rail locos all come with a decoder.
Two-rail is not really cheaper for digital operation, but locos come w/o decoder and appear cheaper (FD will only see the loco invoice, not the decoder invoice
); real advantage: you can get the decoder you want w/o wasting money.
M* sells two-rail models with DCC decoders and three-rail models with mfx decoders or junky MM decoders. Why can't I buy M* locos with DCC decoders? Or M* locos w/o decoders so I can choose the decoder myself?
Two-rail is the better choice if you're after US or DR models (to name just two).
Three-rail has a good choice of DB, ÖBB, SBB models (to name just three).
Some M* locos are too short (including 110.1 and 103), some are too long (e. g. old 110.3). I don't care.
Two-railers say that M* locos have that imprototypical piece of metal between the wheels (the slider). The M* 103 has a circular saw between the wheels they say (there is a visible cog wheel).
Screws on the roof (e. g. V 60, V 160, 103) are service friendly, but not prototypical. But you don't have that with new moulds.
Arguments for three-rail?
I think C track is the best track system in the world (though we're waiting for some pieces to become available). When I started there was only three-rail C track ...
Two-rail and three-rail are too similar nowadays.
Reverse curves and triangles are more easy with three-rail, tracks look better with two-rail, contact is better with three-rail, track choice is bigger with two-rail, track choice is easier with three-rail.
For me mfx is an argument against three-rail (when I started there was no mfx, but there was DCC).
M* announces the booster 60173 before the booster 60172 was produced.
I hope they'll continue to develop the software for the CS 60212 even when the CS 60213 is already delivered. Otherwise that'll be another argument against M* and its proprietary digital system.
Sorry - not many arguments why three-rail is better than two-rail, but some arguments why three-rail is not worse than two-rail.
So this post is not completely OT.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize
a high level of quality
, the
best possible fidelity to the prototype
, and
absolute precision
. You will see that
in all of our products
." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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mike c
#52
Posted :
04 September 2008 03:50:38(UTC)
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Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 8,243
Location: Montreal, QC
Growing up in Canada, one thing became clear really quick. Canadian (CP/CN) and US model trains were 2 Rail DC. The major brand in the 1960s was Triang/Hornby and later Tyco.
Maerklin was European Railroading. Those who wanted German, Swiss or Austrian models went with 3 rail. The other company, which was less known here was Fleischmann. Fleischmann was pretty similar to Maerklin, but used the 2 rail system.
Trix had a line of trains that were 3 rail DC that was really rare in America. I remember seeing the coin activated layouts in each German Bahnhof. AFAIR Trix was the supplier for those layouts.
Starting in the late 1970s, new suppliers emerged, both in Europe (Rowa, ADE, Roco, Liliput, etc) and in America (Atlas, Model Power, etc). The new producers benefitted from changes in technology and were able to release models that tended to be higher in detail (plastic molding) than the older existing models.
The same applied to tracks, larger radii, flex tracks and other innovations first appeared in 2 rail DC. These features were then released to AC modellers with the new K Tracks.
The major advantage of 3-Rail AC is that reverse loops are possible. This has been to an extent solved with the introduction of digital on DC layouts.
So, today, the choices are as follows:
Maerklin still uses die cast for many of the locomotive models. Many other brands use plastic shells on a diecast frame. Maerklin recently introduced rolling stock in the same scale as Fleischmann (1:93). Other companies have gone to exact 1:87.
If you have large enough radii (K or C Track 4/5), you may decide to use 1:87 rolling stock with Maerklin trains. This is what I have done.
For those who have existing layouts using the older narrower radii, this may be problematic if they cannot upgrade to larger radii.
I have seen a few layouts where the old track has become the centrepiece of a new layout. The modeller has added a twin "mainline" oval with hidden storage tracks around the original layout. The new 1:87 trains run on the new lines, while the older trains continue on their original routes.
It all depends on what you want to do, what you can imagine, and how much you are willing to invest to make it reality. The choice is up to the individual, but I have always believed that variety makes for a better life.
I am planning to continue to have my layout running 3 Rail Digital. I have been musing about making the catenary switchable AC/DC so that I can operate DC models from the pantographs.
Regards,
Mike C
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TTRExpress
#53
Posted :
04 September 2008 04:55:34(UTC)
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Joined: 06/04/2006(UTC)
Posts: 655
Hi Gor and welcome to the Forum.
I operate Maerklin 3-rail AC, TRIX Express 3-rail AC and 3-rail DC and have TRIX International 2-rail DC. All I can say is the quality of manufacturers such as Maerklin, TRIX, Fleischmann, Brawa are hard to beat.
There are many members of this forum who have "prototypical" layouts with Maerklin and can put many a 2-rail modeler to shame. Many 2-rail modelers are maybe not as brand loyal as the Maerklinistas!! How unlucky they are.
Regards (a Scot in Wisconsin),
Maurice [ETE, TTRCA, IG-TRIX Express, Maerklin-Insider & TRIX Profi-Club]
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dbmike
#54
Posted :
04 September 2008 06:02:17(UTC)
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Joined: 04/07/2006(UTC)
Posts: 468
Location: Kokomo, IN
I have guys view my layout that I take to shows and not realize that it was 3 rail, and I run M track. They thought it was a Roco or other German brand train, till I explained it was Marklin and showed them a spare piece of track that I keep handy to show folks. I to modeled in the 2 rail world, but got tired of the stress accociated with "rivet counting". I grew up with 3 rail trains, Lionel to be exact, and now I model with Marklin in 3 rail. Cheers Mike
Due to budget shortfall, the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off....mgmt.
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rschaffr
#55
Posted :
04 September 2008 07:55:52(UTC)
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Joined: 03/01/2003(UTC)
Posts: 5,188
Location: Southern New Jersey, USA
Mike: My experience was similar. One of the reasons I left the hobby in the 60's was the obsession to detail in the US HO community. When my sons were 7 and 10 we were living in Heidelberg (1979) and they showed an interest. We went to the hobby store in town and looked at what they had to offer. I was very impressed with the Marklin line (I bought my 3054 E103 that day and it is still my favorite).
-Ron
Digital, Epoch IV-V(K-track/CS3/6021Connect/60216051), Epoch III(C-track/6021/6036/6051)
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tekin65
#56
Posted :
04 September 2008 10:15:56(UTC)
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Joined: 11/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,151
Location: istanbul,
Hi,
I came across a few people who calls Märklin "toys" or "toy like".
Well, I just couldn't care less because I know where these comments are coming from. The "degree" of "realism" they will speak of, and the "bestest details" they will tell you, and the "pukos and the slider" they want to finisih off.
I'm afraid things don't work that way in "real life" - as they like so much to talk about:
- In real life there are no engines that take current from left and right rails.
- On the contrary, in real life underground systems use 3 rail technology.
- In real life steamers don't work with electricity.
- In real life steam locomotives are not powered from the tender.
- In real life there are no curves smaller than 250 meter radius
- In real life streets are not illuminated with DC current.
... shall I go on?
So much for realism; let's face it, this is NOT THE REAL THING. So let's leave some room for ways that diverge from the "real life" in order to give us a "real advantage" for enjoying model trains.
If it was not for Märklin (my first set was given to me when I was 3) I wouldn't be in the hobby at all; I see how my 2 rail analog friends are struggling with every single bit (loops, points, signals, endless "track cleaning" sessions, etc.) - and imagine a 5 year old boys frustration with those 2 rail sets ...
Finally, I know for sure that every single sowrn-Märklin-enemy knows deep down somewhere that 3 rail system is superior to 2 rail. This is the real reason that make them moan and fuss about it so much.
Cem.
EDIT: In the recent years compared to others, Märklin became a moderately (or should I say modestly) priced brand. I just cannot believe some Brawa and Roco prices.
3 rail: C-track with CS2 2 rail: Trix C-track with Trix MS - K.Bay., DRG, DR, DB, SBB, TCDD
Now all eras but no ICE
My loco inventory for the interested
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Roger E
#57
Posted :
04 September 2008 11:36:26(UTC)
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Joined: 23/01/2007(UTC)
Posts: 46
Location: Asker, Norway
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:
Originally posted by gor
..
When i'm checking other forums, there's so many negative vibes about 3 track system...
..
A really hot topic this...
Looking trough the posts here I can see a fair amount of negative vibes about 2-rail as well, so this goes both ways...
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:
Originally posted by h-zero
..
I think C track is the best track system in the world (though we're waiting for some pieces to become available). When I started there was only three-rail C track .
..
Can’t agree more. I think C track is the most important differentiator for Marklin (and Trix). This is far superior to any other track system when it comes to electrical reliability and ease of use – important features particularly for temporary layouts and when used by children.
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tekin65
#58
Posted :
04 September 2008 11:50:21(UTC)
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Joined: 11/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,151
Location: istanbul,
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:
Originally posted by Roger E
<br />Looking trough the posts here I can see a fair amount of negative vibes about 2-rail as well, so this goes both ways...
Not exactly ... I am yet to get a 2 rail fan into a discussion about technical properties of Märklin products and 3 rail system. All they do is to moan about "realism" - they are like little children who never listen and go on and on ...
And ... I don't care what they do with their stuff but they DO care what we do with ours, and how M* is bad, and out of scale, and not realistic, and the pukos ... ad infinitum.
Cem.
3 rail: C-track with CS2 2 rail: Trix C-track with Trix MS - K.Bay., DRG, DR, DB, SBB, TCDD
Now all eras but no ICE
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lokbraz
#59
Posted :
04 September 2008 13:06:22(UTC)
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Joined: 03/03/2008(UTC)
Posts: 122
Location: San Francisco, CA
One thing in favor of DC 2 rails from someone that plays with 3 rails too:
The 2 rails locos run much quieter than 3 rails. That is particularly good if you have loks with sound decoder. There is no sound of sliding shoes!
My ancestors came from the land of rising sun. I was born in South America. Spent time in Europe. Now I live in California.
So, I am a builder of south american brass models. I read about the railroads on the Sierras. But I play with Marklin and have best time with my Marklin peers.
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mmrcnzjohn
#60
Posted :
04 September 2008 13:08:32(UTC)
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Joined: 15/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 558
Location: ,
Model trains are like F1.
The knowledgeable all know that the Marklin system is best, and Ferrari is number one.
All others are on the outside looking in and wishing they had made the right choice in the past.
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tekin65
#61
Posted :
04 September 2008 13:51:53(UTC)
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Joined: 11/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,151
Location: istanbul,
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:
Originally posted by lokbraz
<br />The 2 rails locos run much quieter than 3 rails. That is particularly good if you have loks with sound decoder. There is no sound of sliding shoes!
Absolutely right. I also like sound decoder locos with quiet motors. And I find most Märklin models with sound pretty quiet - I have Br50, Br55 and Br85 with sound and they are really quiet.
Noise from sliders are a problem - although Roco "silent shoes" reduce it considerably.
But for analog or non-sound locos I prefer the classic Märklin sound. And I don't know if anyone else have noticed; many analogs make very distinct and prototype-like noise (say V220, or Br01-3048, or Heizerlok).
Cem.
3 rail: C-track with CS2 2 rail: Trix C-track with Trix MS - K.Bay., DRG, DR, DB, SBB, TCDD
Now all eras but no ICE
My loco inventory for the interested
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hxmiesa
#62
Posted :
04 September 2008 18:55:58(UTC)
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Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,597
Location: Spain
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:
Originally posted by tekin65
But for analog or non-sound locos I prefer the classic Märklin sound. And I don't know if anyone else have noticed; many analogs make very distinct and prototype-like noise (say V220, or Br01-3048, or Heizerlok).
I aggree. Although not M, I have an older spanish built Electrotren MZ locomotive, which sounds surprisingly like a real diesel-electric monster! By far my loudest engine, but it´s a joy! ;-)
Old M. BR89 still grinds its way around, on the alpine section of my layout. Sounding like it´s going to send out all it´s gears in a big explosion.
Roco´s silent slider is indeed a marvel!
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
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rhtastro
#63
Posted :
04 September 2008 20:27:17(UTC)
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Joined: 19/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 2,835
Location: Northern California,
Model RR's in one rail, or two or three or four, who cares, they're all "toys", really.
If they look similar to prototypes that's good enough for me. The argument about one vs. the other seems odd but it has been a good discussion. There seems to be a lot of passion about this and it sure has brought folks out of the woods. Me too.
Rivet counters, that's ok too if that's what you like to do. I'd rather run them and watch them go nnd listen to the sounds.
How about a nonarail, a train without rails. Now that would be a really interesting model train layout.
Cheers, Bob
Robert's trains insured by Colt 45--Marklin Club of NorCal, Founder and Sole Member--- Robert's photos may be used as public domain-all copyrights waved
"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent"-T.Jefferson
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rschaffr
#64
Posted :
04 September 2008 20:41:32(UTC)
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Joined: 03/01/2003(UTC)
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Location: Southern New Jersey, USA
Yeah. A model Maglev would be a fun project to work on! Great idea! I'll have to consider this.
-Ron
Digital, Epoch IV-V(K-track/CS3/6021Connect/60216051), Epoch III(C-track/6021/6036/6051)
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ozzman
#65
Posted :
05 September 2008 02:35:01(UTC)
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Joined: 23/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,828
Location: Sydney, Australia
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:
Originally posted by rschaffr
<br />Yeah. A model Maglev would be a fun project to work on! Great idea! I'll have to consider this.
What about a Z scale model of the Schweberbahn?
Last night I was reading through a couple of Marklin books on signalling, train control etc and the phrase "play value" was used several times. You'd never, ever read words like that in publications like Model Railroader or Railway Modeller. Maybe that's part of the answer.
Gary
Z Scale
"Never let the prototype get in the way of a good layout"
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Macfire
#66
Posted :
05 September 2008 04:27:18(UTC)
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Joined: 04/11/2006(UTC)
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Location: New Zealand
Bloody good point, Ozz
Lord Macca
New Zealand branch of Clan Donald.
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rschaffr
#67
Posted :
05 September 2008 04:45:40(UTC)
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Joined: 03/01/2003(UTC)
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Location: Southern New Jersey, USA
Yes, indeed. I have a few business contacts who are two railers. When I say I am going to go home and play with my trains they give me a funny look. They obsess over run schedules and dispatch orders. OK if that floats your boat, but it is not for me.
-Ron
Digital, Epoch IV-V(K-track/CS3/6021Connect/60216051), Epoch III(C-track/6021/6036/6051)
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rhtastro
#68
Posted :
05 September 2008 07:41:02(UTC)
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Joined: 19/11/2007(UTC)
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Location: Northern California,
Ron, I read about "run schedules and dispatch orders" all the time on "The Gauge". It's what they go through at club meetings before running. How boring. I could stand about one meeting with that crap. I'm too independent. Must be frustated RR guys.
I just like to run trains. My club has one member, me. It's the Marklin Model RR Club of NCA.
I'm the founder and only member and I can do anything I want. In fact nobody even knows about it and that's fine with me. You're the first to know.
There's another Marklin modeler about 300 miles north of me, and he's a great guy, but too far away to be a regular club member. Funny thing is, he's also a retired scientist, physicist, I believe. Worked on nuclear matters.
Must be a trend here somewhere.
Cheers, Bob
Robert's trains insured by Colt 45--Marklin Club of NorCal, Founder and Sole Member--- Robert's photos may be used as public domain-all copyrights waved
"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent"-T.Jefferson
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tekin65
#69
Posted :
05 September 2008 10:41:00(UTC)
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Joined: 11/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,151
Location: istanbul,
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:
Originally posted by rhtastro
<br />I'm the founder and only member and I can do anything I want. In fact nobody even knows about it and that's fine with me. You're the first to know.
Very good idea Bob,
Maybe I'll set my own club too. Will report on my progress as a club
Cem.
3 rail: C-track with CS2 2 rail: Trix C-track with Trix MS - K.Bay., DRG, DR, DB, SBB, TCDD
Now all eras but no ICE
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Lars Westerlind
#70
Posted :
05 September 2008 11:36:15(UTC)
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Joined: 19/10/2001(UTC)
Posts: 2,379
Location: Lindome, Sweden
Well, when people complain about other things instead of beeing glad about their own, it normally comes from envy...
It's too normal also in sweden that 2Railers complatin about 3R without knowing much about it, but 3Railers don't care so much about 2Railers IMHO.
But then there are differences of course. 3R is normally more expensive (poor competition) but has a more complete assortment in some sense (for example, german prototypes, utilities etc); but 2R is more open to smaller deliverers and home builders... Therefore I find there is a tendence that people with less money and more building skill + time prefer 2R.
/Lars
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gor
#71
Posted :
05 September 2008 16:46:46(UTC)
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Joined: 21/08/2008(UTC)
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Location: Copenhagen,
many nice points
Also as Lars Westerlind write..time... and i'm not patient enough to trouble shoot all the time...when i make things, it have to work......you almost need an engeneer exame to work on 2rail.
gor
Best regards
Gor
Marklin c-track, ms
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nevw
#72
Posted :
06 September 2008 01:49:54(UTC)
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Joined: 27/08/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,071
Location: Murrumba Downs QLD
A bit late into this discussion as have been indisposed for the last 5 days.
3 years ago when the FD asked if I wanted to have model trains as a hobby we went looking. I knew nothing of or about 2 rails, 3 rails, dcc, selectric fx or MFX, delta or Digital. In other words a complete dunce. I knew the difference between Dc and AC as far as electricity goes. The only thing I knew about Model Trains was that they used a step-down transformer/power supply to run.
We (Self and FD) went around the model train shops having a look at what was available , picked up some information and looked at various brands,
eventually we arrived at the Marklin Shop, (which incidentally is the closest model train shop to where we live) found out more information BUT we were both taken with the looks of the Marklin goodies. Still really did not know much but decision was made, Marklin it was. It was several months later I found out the major advantages of 3 Rail. we have never regretted the decision to choose Marklin.
NN
NOt wearing the Pink Pinny, which is hard to see and now I have a white Pinny which also is hard to see against MY pure white Skin Still have 2 new shiny tin Hips that is badly in Need of Repair matching rusting tin shoulders
and a hose pipe on the aorta
Junior member of the Banana Club, a reformist and an old Goat with a Bad memory, loafing around
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tekin65
#73
Posted :
06 September 2008 01:53:12(UTC)
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Location: istanbul,
Nev hi,
I think you have the nicest story ever told about Märklin.
Worth a million comments indeed!
Cem.
3 rail: C-track with CS2 2 rail: Trix C-track with Trix MS - K.Bay., DRG, DR, DB, SBB, TCDD
Now all eras but no ICE
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shaygetz
#74
Posted :
06 September 2008 01:54:25(UTC)
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Location: , Florida
Just pull them out and run them...too many things make demands of me, when I run my trains, they do MY bidding...[}:)][}:)]Muah-hah-hah-hah[}:)][}:)]...two rail, three rail and toy.
"To escape the error of salvation by works we have fallen into the opposite error of salvation without obedience.”
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Webmaster
#75
Posted :
06 September 2008 01:58:08(UTC)
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Nev, you spotted the main point here.... M does not look worse than the average 2-rail DC models, rather the opposite when you look at the items with a critical eye... Many DC:rs are buying M waggons...
Let's just say that they visually are at least about 80% of the best class you can get for somewhat reasonable cash.... And that is good enough for most of us...
The only complaints of model accuracy today would be the loco slider, the NEM coupler shaft at the front of the locos and maybe also the distance between tender & loco with steamers...
But at least the steamers are not shoved along the track by their tender as most DC steamers are...
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
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nevw
#76
Posted :
06 September 2008 02:35:21(UTC)
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Location: Murrumba Downs QLD
Thanks Cem and Juhan,
One thing I forgot was that due to being indisposed it may be one or 2 weeks between running the trains.
Never a problem, just turn them on and they go. Occasionally I may run hte track cleaner around. Friend with big two rail layout allways has a problem.
The only problem I now have is the CS being away and the MS has not got enough power to run 2 trains with lighted coaches and a MFX diesel with sound. when they get to the Automatic crossing they stutter a bit. Will have an instant cure today. I will change the trains over for other ones.
NN
NOt wearing the Pink Pinny, which is hard to see and now I have a white Pinny which also is hard to see against MY pure white Skin Still have 2 new shiny tin Hips that is badly in Need of Repair matching rusting tin shoulders
and a hose pipe on the aorta
Junior member of the Banana Club, a reformist and an old Goat with a Bad memory, loafing around
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Bigdaddynz
#77
Posted :
06 September 2008 05:16:16(UTC)
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Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
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Location: New Zealand
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:
Originally posted by mmrcnzjohn
<br />Model trains are like F1.
The knowledgeable all know that the Marklin system is best, and Ferrari is number one.
All others are on the outside looking in and wishing they had made the right choice in the past.
Not that you would ever hear them admit it......
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mmrcnzjohn
#78
Posted :
06 September 2008 05:41:01(UTC)
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not everyone can get right, there are a lot people out there who like 2r and Ferrari, or marklin and not ferrari.
At least the very knowledgable editor of my clubs magazine has it right!
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nevw
#79
Posted :
06 September 2008 07:42:38(UTC)
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Joined: 27/08/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,071
Location: Murrumba Downs QLD
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:
Originally posted by mmrcnzjohn
<br />not everyone can get right, there are a lot people out there who like 2r and Ferrari, or marklin and not ferrari.
At least the very knowledgable editor of my clubs magazine has it right!
I heard that the editor of that Mag was an Illiterate Book makers Clerk.
NOt wearing the Pink Pinny, which is hard to see and now I have a white Pinny which also is hard to see against MY pure white Skin Still have 2 new shiny tin Hips that is badly in Need of Repair matching rusting tin shoulders
and a hose pipe on the aorta
Junior member of the Banana Club, a reformist and an old Goat with a Bad memory, loafing around
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rhtastro
#80
Posted :
06 September 2008 08:15:59(UTC)
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Joined: 19/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 2,835
Location: Northern California,
I often post on the "Gauge" which is a very large N. American mostly 2R forum of folks from the US and Canada mainly. There are some others on it as well.
There's a lot of good info there just as there is on this Marklin forum. I've decided that if you want to have trouble with your setup, go 2R. You should read all the bitching and moaning about dirt on the track, lack of performance, etc.
A lot of the guys have to solder the track pieces together for good contact. Also, they need a contact track every few track pieces. We or at least I, just don't have those problems with C-track and M in general.
There is a lot of 2R stuff that just doesn't run very well. It's cheap, really cheap. However, good 2R systems do exist but they cost a lot more.
The DCC systems are very good and easy to run. The detail of the better made brands are also quite good. But most of the guys buy the cheap stuff and it often has a lot of problems. Consider yourself lucky to have M.
They all know I run Marklin, but they're nice about it. They just don't want to change from 2R to 3R. Trix, however, is well thought of but is also a little pricey for those guys.
Some of these folks have been running model trains since the 1950's or 60's. That is the story for HO but for Z gauge there are some Marklin setups. But that's a very small part of the total.
N gauge is very popular in North America. Nearly all are made in Asia and some are very well done. Again, it's how much you want to spend. It has great appeal with it's small size. American models dominate in this scale. Also, there are very good control systems for these models. Sound and all.
The space used on the "Gauge" forum for N is nearly as great as it is for HO. I never see Minitrix, M's N gauge models, ever mentioned. They've missed the train on this one.
Cheers, Bob
Robert's trains insured by Colt 45--Marklin Club of NorCal, Founder and Sole Member--- Robert's photos may be used as public domain-all copyrights waved
"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent"-T.Jefferson
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kimballthurlow
#81
Posted :
06 September 2008 09:05:10(UTC)
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Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,765
Location: Brisbane, Australia
I belong to a 2R Club, and it is the weight of numbers that contributes to the large layout working as it should.
Yes, soldered track joints, multi power feeds, wired points for conductivity, blocks, reversing loop electronics etc etc.
Nice in a club.
A home layout has to be Märklin for me.
regards
Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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Bigdaddynz
#82
Posted :
06 September 2008 15:26:42(UTC)
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Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,778
Location: New Zealand
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:
Originally posted by nevw
<br />I heard that the editor of that Mag was an Illiterate Book makers Clerk.
I've said this before Nev, but here it is again - "May the fleas of a 1000 camels infest your armpits!"
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Darren W
#83
Posted :
06 September 2008 19:56:27(UTC)
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Joined: 01/01/2007(UTC)
Posts: 643
Location: Alberta
I think of Marklin 3 rail and 2 rail models like PC and MAC (no I don't want to start a debate about that). Here in North America the 2 rail has the big market share like the PC manufacturers. The variety is great but the quality is all over the place. I have a MAC because it just works.
I grew tired of looking in model railroad magazines that went on and on about giant layouts that filled entire basements. I don't have the time/money/interest to build such a beast. I also agree with the comments about the dispatch orders and schedules. I think some of the guys who do that used to work for railways and are recreating what they did during their working career.
I initially shunned the C-track but after working with it I think it is a great product.
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Macfire
#84
Posted :
07 September 2008 12:08:58(UTC)
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Joined: 04/11/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,652
Location: New Zealand
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:
Originally posted by Bigdaddynz
<br />
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:
Originally posted by nevw
<br />I heard that the editor of that Mag was an Illiterate Book makers Clerk.
I've said this before Nev, but here it is again - "May the fleas of a 1000 camels infest your armpits!"
Meow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Lord Macca
New Zealand branch of Clan Donald.
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sudibarba
#85
Posted :
09 September 2008 05:43:31(UTC)
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Joined: 28/07/2006(UTC)
Posts: 880
Location: Augusta, GA USA
Just to stir it up a little, another reason the rivet counting folks in the USA are so willing to weather their loco's is that they pay far less than $ 200 for most of them. If they pay more it's because they have sound decoders in them they can move later. Of course, there are very expensive, fine two rail models but most of what I see are $ 79 analogue locos all painted up.
I'm being intentionally over board here but there is some truth in what I am saying. As I have stated before, I am not going to take $ 500 to $900 dollar works of art and hope they look good when I get done. I guess I live in the "new just delivered day" or have my naturally weathered loks fron the 60's and 70's.
Eric
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jonquinn
#86
Posted :
10 September 2008 03:41:42(UTC)
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Joined: 15/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,591
Location: Pennsylvania
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:
Originally posted by Darren Watalla
<br />
I grew tired of looking in model railroad magazines that went on and on about giant layouts that filled entire basements. I don't have the time/money/interest to build such a beast. I also agree with the comments about the dispatch orders and schedules. I think some of the guys who do that used to work for railways and are recreating what they did during their working career.
I can't comprehend why some MRR operators would want to make their leisure time into work. maybe in the past some of these guys were real operators and engineers, but the whole dispatching thing and "operating" sessions to me seems like some sort of psychological complex.
And while I can see why some modelers wanted to hand lay track, I never found it to look very realistic - no tie plates, not enough spikes, no nuts and bolts in the rail joiners (before they started welding rails).
I can only speak for what I have seen and heard in the USA. Most MRR fans are either true-scale afficionados, and consider marklin too toy-like (at least the older ones were with lots of molded on detail), or they are Lionel O gauge fans (and that's 3-rail). And most people want to model what they can see in their own locality or period of their youth, and except for a few items of recent issue, marklin hasn't offered that for american modelers in HO. And as a few others say, the marklin models are very expensive compared to an Athearn or Walthers loco.
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jeehring
#87
Posted :
10 September 2008 05:22:24(UTC)
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Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC)
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Location: ,
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:
Originally posted by Darren Watalla
<br />
I initially shunned the C-track but after working with it I think it is a great product.
It is a great product !!!
His code 90 rail is nice and beats many code 100 tracks . Many Two rails enthusiasts critizing it on Internet forums didn't realize C-track is a code 90 track .
For those who want "realistic" scenery( "realistic" = another overused word!)you can easily wheatherize the plastic roadbed . You can even hide it or recovered it to obtain a nice imitation of ballast, earth , etc....or anything else . It is a sturdy product too .
Trix C- track is with code-83 rail ( NMRA code )! The color of the roadbed is a little bit more clear and more brown .
I'm living in a two railers country ( they like kitbashing too) . According to dealers ,or to what I see on Internet Forums , I assure you the new Trix C-track begins to be successful here in France . People like the whole concept . But what they prefer is its solidity & the multipurpose side : you can work it in many different ways .( They all miss a flexible element , of course !)
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seatrains
#88
Posted :
10 September 2008 07:39:46(UTC)
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Joined: 22/11/2006(UTC)
Posts: 676
Location: Shoreline, WA
Gor, I live in the U.S.A. As a child, all my friends had American outline O gauge (Lionel, Marx) or HO (Varney, Gilbert, etc.) I was the wierd guy, because I had Marklin. It was the "Mercedes or BMW" of model trains. It was quality and dependabilty. As a child, I read everything I could on the DB, SBB, DSB etc. and in doing that learned about another continent. There are many diehard Lionel, MTH 3 rail guys here in the U.S.A., and they say "What the hell" and I say the same, if you like 3 rail Marklin, go for it, if you like 2 rail, go for it!!!
Thom
European Train Enthusiast - Pacific Northwest Chapter
4th Division, Pacific Northwest Region, National Model Railroaders Association
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ozzman
#89
Posted :
15 September 2008 06:27:34(UTC)
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Joined: 23/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 1,828
Location: Sydney, Australia
This may not be the definitive answer to the question posed by gor, but it's certainly revealing. It was copied and pasted from a forum to which I used to belong....
"I find it hard to understand why anyone would consider Märklin's system a viable choice when they are starting out as a scale modeller if they really understand what they are looking at. The huge wiper under the locomotive and the "puckos" are something which can never be reconciled with scale modelling. There is no electrical or mechanical advantage to the arrangement except in the case of reverse loops or wyes (track triangles), and these can be overcome quite easily if you are using DCC and hasn't proven much of a problem for analog DC users for decades either.
The big flanges are a turnoff, and the expensive and unrealistic (center studs, oversized rail, huge flangeways in turnouts) track is not exactly something enhance realism either. And then there are the huge number of compromises Märklin has made to maintain compatibility with models made 50 years ago, like the tight turning radii which frequently requires models to be butchered in some way or the shortening of coaches.
Märklin is a toy maker masquerading as a model railroad manufacturer, the Lionel of Europe. The main difference is that no one ever thought of Lionel as a scale manufacturer, and Lionel never tried to pretend they were.
"Please pay no attention to the puckos between the tracks..." "
With all due respect to Lionel owners, I think Marklin is somewhat better than portrayed in the quote.
Gary
Z Scale
"Never let the prototype get in the way of a good layout"
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Bigdaddynz
#90
Posted :
15 September 2008 12:24:19(UTC)
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Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,778
Location: New Zealand
Well Gary, someone has their head in the sand, especially when you take Cem's comments into account regarding the so-called realism of 2 Rail (any 2 railers you know have 3 metre curves??)!
Somehow, I don't think we will ever change their minds. If they want to count their rivets or suchlike good luck to them with that! Meanwhile all the bright and knowledgeable open minded people are here in this forum, and judging by the efforts of some people here (Frits Osterthun, Piet Brijs, Per, Hans Martin Sauer, Henrik Hoexbroe, and Alberto Pedrini layouts come to mind) leave nothing behind in the realism stakes.
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hxmiesa
#91
Posted :
15 September 2008 19:22:04(UTC)
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Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,597
Location: Spain
Thanks Bigdaddy! :-)
My layout is realistic alright; Way behind schedule, and grosely over budget! ;-)
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
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ulf999
#92
Posted :
15 September 2008 22:24:19(UTC)
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Joined: 12/05/2005(UTC)
Posts: 1,908
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:
Originally posted by hxmiesa
<br />Thanks Bigdaddy! :-)
My layout is realistic alright; Way behind schedule, and grosely over budget! ;-)
Ulf, American HO.
www.goldenvalleyroute.com/
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dbmike
#93
Posted :
16 September 2008 01:54:02(UTC)
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Joined: 04/07/2006(UTC)
Posts: 468
Location: Kokomo, IN
For realistic operation, how many 2 rail layouts, espicaly in the USA have working catenary? Where as most mature Marklin layouts have catenary that is fully functional or in the process of being made functional. When I put just the towers up on my small layout, I spent the whole show discussing overhead wiring with folks, and even got a few comments that my little slice of Germany was more realistic than the huge N scale modular club running a 150 car coal train behind 5 diesels. Many USA beginner modelers have no idea these exhist, or dismiss them as not realistic, till they pick up a all metal current production E lok, or even my older V200 which is all metal. The like the heft, reminds them of the Lionel they might have had when young. Even though I run older tinplate M track (stud contact), the combination of vintage tinplate and modern trains just seems to really spark peoples interest. With more exposure in the states and keeping pricing competitive, M could make a resurgance here. O scale has fallen off, G scale has now become the "baby boomer" scale from what I am hearing and HO is strong as ever. With the high cost of everything finaly hitting home here in the states. I think the time is ripe for small scale modeling to take off again. Cannot afford the gas to go anywhere, so we spend the money, via the internet, on trains to keep us happy at home. Cheers
Due to budget shortfall, the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off....mgmt.
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Falconrep
#94
Posted :
01 October 2008 06:37:52(UTC)
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Joined: 07/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 111
Location: Kansas OK
For me it's simple, it's reliable and it's nicely made. Engines that are 50+ years old run as if they were bought yesterday. And in the end...let's be truthful "THEY ARE TOYS" If I wanted real trains (and I almost bought a 40 tonner from the USAF DRMO) I'd have real trains, but puting them away after I'm done with them is such a problem, not many fit in the house!
Thomas Wondrock
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Macfire
#95
Posted :
03 October 2008 23:59:49(UTC)
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Joined: 04/11/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,652
Location: New Zealand
Great points of view here Team.
Some additional thoughts from Moi:
Run Schedules - UGH!!!![:(][:(]
We play -we happy
C v K.
At the moment I have both on the training layout. No MMR visitors only realised it was 3 rail when I showed them after they had seen my M* boxes stored in the garage.
Our permanent layout will be K.
Why? Personal choice and perceived better running characteristics especially for the older 40** series coaches etc.
But that does not mean I don't respect C especially in regard to carpetbahns etc.
Leah being a Kindy teacher has taken some trains in from time to time to show the kids. They loved it. So I will build a small, transportable, C layout so I can better Spread The Word.
Lets face it - Kids LOVE sounds, lights and being able to play.
Lord Macca
New Zealand branch of Clan Donald.
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David Dewar
#96
Posted :
04 October 2008 00:50:58(UTC)
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Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,464
Location: Scotland
'Lets face it - Kids LOVE sounds, lights and being able to play'
....................................................................
Thats me Macca.
David
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
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Macfire
#97
Posted :
04 October 2008 23:39:33(UTC)
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Joined: 04/11/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,652
Location: New Zealand
Oh and another point:
Don't forget the world famous railway layout in Germany that recently changed from 3 rail to 2 rail [:(] [:(]
Hmmm I wonder who THAT was ???????
Lord Macca
New Zealand branch of Clan Donald.
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Bigdaddynz
#98
Posted :
04 October 2008 23:55:45(UTC)
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Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,778
Location: New Zealand
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:
Originally posted by hxmiesa
<br />Thanks Bigdaddy! :-)
My layout is realistic alright; Way behind schedule, and grosely over budget! ;-)
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shaygetz
#99
Posted :
06 October 2008 05:37:41(UTC)
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Joined: 19/12/2006(UTC)
Posts: 348
Location: , Florida
You want to see nasty looks---maybe even some fainting---from a two railer?
Let them see one of these...
...on your layout. Gets them every time...
"To escape the error of salvation by works we have fallen into the opposite error of salvation without obedience.”
---A.W. Tozer
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Gustavo Villa
#100
Posted :
06 October 2008 23:56:20(UTC)
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Joined: 17/07/2005(UTC)
Posts: 260
Location: Viña del Mar, Chile
I’m an active 2 rail modeler but also have my 3 rail layout operational.
I think we must compare european 3 rail marklin products against european 2 rail marklin (trix) products, otherwise comparison can became les objective due to the big number of 2 rail models and quality out there.
If we compare them we will end up with much more similarities than differences, actually differences are:
-Layouts easy to set up for 3 rail.
- Electrical contact reliability slightly better for 3 rail.
-Better prototype looking for 2 rails.
-Digital advantage for two rails due cheaper prices and more brands for universal DCC system.
-Marklin is cheaper than trix because for the same Price you get a marklin locomotive “with” decoder, most trix engine s are sold without decoders due to most dc modelers want to have a choice of decoder brands.
All the rest are similarities.
As you can see most of the criticism is just ignorance about the other system and vice versa.
In former time marklin hamo was just a small tiny part of 2 rail dc system so comparison was more difficult, today if you want marklin variety and quality in 2 rails you have Trix, if you still want 3 rails, you have marklin, as simple as that.
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