Joined: 11/10/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,151 Location: istanbul,
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Hello there,
I know that the Br52 locomotives made during the war had some (many?) parts omitted: smoke deflectors, super-heaters, etc.
1) Is there any Br52's produced after the war (i.e. non-kriegslok)?
2) Does anyone have a list of the different parts between the two?
Best regards,
Cem. |
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Joined: 06/04/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,573 Location: ,
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I have only seen photos of 52's with no smoke deflectors, and tub style tenders. Also in two colors, black, and photo grey. The locomotive itself, to me looks just like a class 50. I think, maybe, after the war, these were re-classified by the DB as 51's. As steam power began to cease, the tub tenders went away because of their lower capacity. They were made for war use, because they could be built faster. It's easier to pound or stamp a flat sheet into a half circle, than to weld a box together. Then you weld one surface at each end, instead of also the bottom four sides. you save two long welds along the bottom. I like the class 51 with the brakeman's cab. It also has a Tel-Ex coupler on the rear. Item #37841.
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Joined: 06/04/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,573 Location: ,
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If I went after a photo grey Loc., I'd want the Borsig.
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Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC) Posts: 18,778 Location: New Zealand
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Quote:[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by spitzenklasse <br />If I went after a photo grey Loc., I'd want the Borsig.
I assume you mean the Class 53 Mallet, Spitzenklasse. We have one in our club museum. Very nice I might add.
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Joined: 04/11/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,652 Location: New Zealand
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I'm sure that M* produced a Class 52 without smoke deflectors but can't find the reference. fx (?) from memory.. |
Lord Macca New Zealand branch of Clan Donald.
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Joined: 26/03/2006(UTC) Posts: 1,423 Location: Brisbane, QLD
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37159 is a BR 52 with no smoke deflectors. It does have a rather prominent Red Star on the nose though... Technically SZD Class TE-3915.  Is that a "tub-style" tender? |
Cheers, Damon |
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Joined: 08/08/2003(UTC) Posts: 1,614 Location: Birmingham,Alabama
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That is indeed a "Tub" tender. |
Train Collection Insured by "Croc's" with "Big Boys" as Backup" CS/MS Digital Era 1/2 Apple Man iPhone / Macbook Pro / iPad - the end of the windows PC occurred on April 4, 2010.
Love those Era 1 Tank Locomotives - the more the merrier.
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Joined: 17/07/2005(UTC) Posts: 260 Location: Viña del Mar, Chile
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Class 52 was built in many different combinations of tenders, colors, countries and smoke deflectors: Here are some examples from gutzold (tube tender, two sizes of kondenstender, etc), Just go down to class 52: http://www.harald-johns.com/SAMMLUNG/1-u.htmI think ones of the most interesting tenders for the 52 is the Streifenrahmentender (very square lines design), as far as I know it was used in gray DRG livery without smoke deflectors and later on in DR livery with smoke deflectors using the traditional red and black colors, no idea if it was used under DB. http://www.harald-johns....20Streifenrahmtender.JPG
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Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,467 Location: DE-NW
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Some class 52 locos were built (or completed) after the war. This includes the Franco Crosti locos that were listed as class 42.90 (they are modified class 52 locos with a new class number because the axle pressure was higher). During the war the non-war class 50 slowly evolved to the war class 52. |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS  |
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Joined: 21/01/2004(UTC) Posts: 1,277
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I think all BR52 made in Belgium (like Tubize) where put together after the end of the war. They had the parts for more than 100 machines if I am not mistaken.
The ones that served during the war in Belgium where made in Germany AFAIK. When the Germans retreated they left 3 of the BR52 Kondenser behind (of which marklin made a model).
The 'russian' BR52 can be seen in the Speyer Technikmuseum. It has the typical red star on the front.
Bert
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Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC) Posts: 31,705 Location: United Kingdom
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Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy. |
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Joined: 16/08/2006(UTC) Posts: 5,382 Location: Akershus, Norway
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Class 52 left in Norway when the war ended, became NSB class 63 (63 years ago today):  |
Best regards Svein, Norway grumpy old sod
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Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC) Posts: 31,705 Location: United Kingdom
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Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy. |
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Joined: 09/08/2007(UTC) Posts: 67 Location: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
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It's evidently a complicated story. From June 1945 to 1948, Henschel built 73 locomotives and Jung built 11. I can't pretend that I have a complete answer to the question but I found a bit of information in Horst J. Obermayer & Manfred Weisbrod, Dampflok-Report, Band No 3 (Hermann Merker Verlag, 1996), pp. 58-59:
In 1945-1947, under the supervision of the US military government, Henschel completed locomotives 52 1797, 1803-1818, 2869, 2871, 2877 and 2888-2893 to the same specifications as the units built during the war. Arn. Jung built 11 locomotives numbered 52 3321-3331 for the Göttingen Eisenbahn-Zentralamt in 1945-46. All these locomotives had tub tenders (Type 2'2' T 30). Two locomotives were also built for the Rheinischen Braunkohlewerke. In the same period Henschel also built 52 2018-2020 and 52 2022-2027 with short condenser tenders (Type 2'2' T 13,5).
In June 1948 the DR administration for the western occupation zones ordered 70 locomotives of BR 42 and 65 machines of BR 52, all with preheaters. No particular system was specified, as it was intended to experiment with different designs. Postwar increases in coal prices made fuel economy important. The BR 52 order was later reduced to 40 units, all from Henschel. Two locomotives from this order received Franco-Crosti exhaust gas preheaters and were given numbers 42 9000 and 9001. From the other 38 machines (52 124-143 and 52 875-892), four locomotives (52 124-127) had no preheaters, so that they could provide a basis for comparison with the other testbeds. 52 128 had a Knorr surface preheater.
31 locomotives were built With Henschel preheaters of various types. Most had Henschel MVR preheaters and VTP-B 18 000 turbo feed pumps. 52 138 had a Henschel three-drum preheater. 52 891 and 892 had Heinl preheaters and V 10 piston feed pumps. The Henschel preheaters served well but the turbo feed pumps caused continual problems.
The condenser locomotives were all out of service by March 1954. Of the machines with preheaters, 26 were still in service at the end of 1958. They were all withdrawn by 1962.
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Joined: 11/10/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,151 Location: istanbul,
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Hi,
Ladislas, that's what I was looking for. Thank you very much.
Regards,
Cem. |
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Joined: 09/08/2007(UTC) Posts: 67 Location: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
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Cem: I'm glad you found it helpful. I found a little bit more detail in Jürgen-Ulrich Ebel & Rüdiger Gansfuß, Franco-Crosti (EK-Verlag, 2002), in which there is a table at p. 21 setting out these differences among the postwar-built BR 52s: 52 124-127: no preheater / injectors 52 128: Krupp mixture preheater / piston pump 52 129-132: Henschel MVR with smokebox structure / VTP-B 18 000 turbo pump 52 133: Henschel MVR with smokebox structure / KT 1 piston pump 52 134: Henschel MVR without smokebox structure / TPB 18 000 turbo pump 52 135: Henschel MVR with smokebox structure / TBP 18 000 turbo pump 52 136-137: Henschel MVR with smokebox structure / VTP-B 18 000 turbo pump 52 138: Henschel tube preheater / VTB-B 18 000 turbo pump 52 139-141: Henschel MVR with smokebox structure / VTB-B 18 000 turbo pump 52 142-143; 52 875-890: Henschel MVR without smokebox structure / VTB-B 18 000 turbo pump 52 891-892: Heinl MV / V 10 piston pump 42 9000-9001: Franco-Crosti preheater / KV 25 piston pump On page 20 there are nice Carl Bellingrodt photos of 52 133 and 52 891. I can e-mail a scan of these to you if you wish. M. Weisbrod & R. Barkhoff, Die Dampflokomotive - Technik und Funktion, Teil 1 (Hermann Merker Verlag, 1985) has descriptions, drawings and detail photos of injectors, feed pumps and feedwater preheaters at pp. 45-60. You should also look at Kurt Miska's article about the BR 52 at http://www-personal.umich.edu/~khmiska/_derived/br52.htm, if you haven't seen that already.
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Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC) Posts: 31,705 Location: United Kingdom
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Very interesting link, Thanks. |
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy. |
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Joined: 06/04/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,573 Location: ,
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Damon's is a Soviet version.
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Joined: 11/10/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,151 Location: istanbul,
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Ladislas hi,
Superb info and great link. Thanks. It would be really appreciated if you could mail me the Bellingrodt photos. My mail is info(at)marklinciyiz.biz
Thank you very much.
Best regards,
Cem. |
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Joined: 06/10/2006(UTC) Posts: 1,345 Location: ,
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As far as I know, the Br 52 was a re-hash of the Br 50 but with alterations to speed up construction. Some of the tub tenders seem to have ended up as tankers in MOW service later on - I think Liliput for one offer a pack of two of them as emergency tank wagons.
The Allies did the same - Britain had the "WD" (War Department) 2-8-0 and 2-10-0 heavy freight locos which were intended to go into Europe post D-Day to replace damaged locos. They had numerous little things like cast (solid) wheels on the leading truck that were either quicker to build or used fewer scarce resources. |
Matt from Wales.
When you pay Range Rover prices, don't accept Lada quality |
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Joined: 09/08/2007(UTC) Posts: 67 Location: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
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Cem: I will scan the photos and e-mail them in the next few days. By the way, "with / without smokebox structure" in the list above is of course my clumsy attempt to translate "mit / ohne Rauchkammeraufbau." The difference seems to be that in locomotives "mit Rauchkammeraufbau" the mixing tank is simply set on top of the smokebox, while in those "ohne Rauchkammeraufbau" it is partly set into the smokebox so that the left and right edges of the upper surface of the tank are flush with the upper surface of the smokebox. And here's another on-line resource: a two-part article about how to modify a Roco BR 01 to make a model of 01 112 with Henschel MVR: http://www.eisenbahn-und-modellbau.de/lesenEMB12S13ff.htm
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Joined: 29/04/2005(UTC) Posts: 777 Location: Netherlands
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Quote:[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Ladislas <br />Cem:
I will scan the photos and e-mail them in the next few days.
You can put me on the CC: with 'sakkerju AT hotmail DOT com' [:p]. BR52 is one of my favourite loks, I have 3 from M* 1 black DB with Witte 'ears' 1 war gray DRG without Witte 'ears' 1 black DB 'condensation tender' http://www.kondenslok.de/The FC 42-9000 does not count as a 52, does it? http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/...ti/francocrosti.htm#4290This is a picture I took from the 52 at Neuenmarkt-Wirsberg museum:  |
Mosty era III DB. |
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Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,467 Location: DE-NW
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Quote:[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by WelshMatt <br />As far as I know, the Br 52 was a re-hash of the Br 50 but with alterations to speed up construction. Some of the tub tenders seem to have ended up as tankers in MOW service later on They found about 2000 parts they could leave away (comparing BR 52 to BR 50). They also reduced the amount of special metals like copper that were not available during war time. DB took all BR 52 locos out of service before 1968 - some of the tub tenders lived on, some with the much older P 8, some as tank cars. |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS  |
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Joined: 11/10/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,151 Location: istanbul,
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Ladislas hi, Thanks for the correction and the pictures. Gert hi, I have the war gray AND the condensing tender Br52s too, I now need a regular Br52 with Witte deflectors :) I think 429000 counts as Br52 - after all, it IS a Br52. For those who are interested: few months ago a TCDD Br52 is fixed and run after 20 or so years. What an excitement! And yesterday it was here in Istanbul. Here's the link to the photos: http://marklinciyiz.biz/forum/index.php?topic=1333.0Regards, Cem. |
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Joined: 29/04/2005(UTC) Posts: 777 Location: Netherlands
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Quote:[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote: Originally posted by tekin65<br />Ladislas hi, Thanks for the correction and the pictures. Gert hi, I have the war gray AND the condensing tender Br52s too, I now need a regular Br52 with Witte deflectors :) I think 429000 counts as Br52 - after all, it IS a Br52. For those who are interested: few months ago a TCDD Br52 is fixed and run after 20 or so years. What an excitement! And yesterday it was here in Istanbul. Here's the link to the photos: http://marklinciyiz.biz/forum/index.php?topic=1333.0Regards, Cem. Looking good !!!  |
Mosty era III DB. |
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Joined: 09/08/2007(UTC) Posts: 67 Location: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
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Cem & Gert-Jan: I have e-mailed the scanned photos to you - my apologies in advance for the rather poor quality of the scan, but it seems to be the best I can manage. Thanks for posting the nice photo of 52 5804 and the link to the photos from Haydarpasha Station - lovely! And yes (as Tom pointed out earlier in this thread), the BR 42.90s really are part of BR 52 - just classified as BR 42s because of their weight (service weight 94,9 tonnes as opposed to 88,6 tonnes for BR 52 MVR). The builder's numbers assigned by Henschel were part of the same series used for the BR 52s, i.e.: 28312/51 = 52 890 28313/50 = 42 9000 28314/50 = 42 9001 23815/51 = 52 891 I see that Modellbahnmanufaktur Crottendorf ( http://www.modellbahnmanufaktur-crottendorf.de/index.html) is offering a model of 52 138 - available in a 3-rail AC version - which certainly is a worthy object of desire:
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Joined: 26/03/2006(UTC) Posts: 1,423 Location: Brisbane, QLD
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Quote:[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by spitzenklasse <br />Damon's is a Soviet version.
Yes, sort-of... From the Märklin catalogue 1997/98: Quote:[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:The Soviet Union's Red Army maintained so-called strategic reserves at several locations in the Baltic States and in White Russia. These were operational locomotives that had been mothballed as a reserve for a crisis. Over 100 units of the class 52 alone were stored at these locations, and all of them were pointed to the West.
The prototype of the Märklin model was built in 1944 by Orenstein & Koppel in Berlin. At the end of the war it was in Czechoslovakia and was given over to the USSR as war booty. there it was converted to the 1,542mm (5 feet) gauge and was used in regular service in the Ukraine until 1962. It was converted back to the standard gauge of 1,435mm (4 feet 8-1/2 inches) when it was taken into the strategic reserve. In February of 1996 it was transferred by the director of the strategic reserve in Brest to Altenbecken in the Sauerland area of Germany.
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Cheers, Damon |
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Joined: 21/01/2004(UTC) Posts: 1,277
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Now that we are back on the topic of 'soviet' BR52s. Here is the one on display at the technik museum of Speyer:  I took the picture myself last fall. Lot's to see there (not only railroad related) Bert
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Joined: 29/04/2005(UTC) Posts: 777 Location: Netherlands
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Quote:[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by DasBert33 <br />Now that we are back on the topic of 'soviet' BR52s. Here is the one on display at the technik museum of Speyer:
...
I took the picture myself last fall. Lot's to see there (not only railroad related)
Bert
This must have been the prototype for M* 'T3-5293' SZD models 34159 / 37159 from the year 1997 |
Mosty era III DB. |
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Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC) Posts: 31,705 Location: United Kingdom
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Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy. |
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Joined: 09/08/2007(UTC) Posts: 67 Location: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
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In the BR 64 thread in the HO scale forum, Lutz recently posted a link to Ulrich Budde's lovely "Bundesbahnzeit" website. I was thrilled to discover that it includes a useful and detailed summary of BR 50 - 53 distinctions, with lots of nice pictures from the 1968-1975 period (mostly BR 50s, but also some very interesting BR 52 variants such as 052 406-6: http://www.bundesbahnzeit.de/Ba...e_050/uebersicht-050.htmP.S. (30 May 2008): My apologies for my silly mistake. Please ignore my babbling about "BR 52 variants". As Tom has kindly pointed out below, all of this is irrelevant to the BR 52 topic since these locomotives (post-1968 BR 050 - 053) are actually renumbered BR 50s. [xx(]
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Joined: 11/10/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,151 Location: istanbul,
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Yeah, I've just seen the link and gone through it. Will open a new one for I'm such an idiot  |
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Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,467 Location: DE-NW
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Quote:[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Ladislas <br />I was thrilled to discover that it includes a useful and detailed summary of BR 50 - 53 distinctions, with lots of nice pictures from the 1968-1975 period (mostly BR 50s, but also some very interesting BR 52 variants such as 052 406-6 DB had no class 52 locos in use after 1968. But there were so many class 50 locos that they received "computer numbers" with 050, 051, 052, and 053. So "052 406-6" is a BR 50, not a BR 52 variant. The leading zero makes a big difference here!!! |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS  |
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Joined: 09/01/2007(UTC) Posts: 589 Location: The Netherlands
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Quote:[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:[ You can put me on the CC: with 'sakkerju AT hotmail DOT com'
What a blasphemous e-mail address you operate!   |
C and M track; CS1R and 2 MS |
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Joined: 09/08/2007(UTC) Posts: 67 Location: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
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Quote:[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote: Originally posted by h-zero<br /> Quote:DB had no class 52 locos in use after 1968. But there were so many class 50 locos that they received "computer numbers" with 050, 051, 052, and 053. So "052 406-6" is a BR 50, not a BR 52 variant.
The leading zero makes a big difference here!!!
Thanks for correcting my silly mistake so quickly - and apologies to Cem for creating such confusion. I should have read and thought more carefully before writing. While I've been learning a lot about Ep IIIa, it's clear that I still have a lot to learn about IVa - I'm the idiot - certainly not Cem! [B)]
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Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC) Posts: 11,165
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Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service... He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb] |
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Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,467 Location: DE-NW
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Quote:[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Ladislas <br />I'm the idiot - certainly not him! [B)]
That word is too hard - it's a common mistake, but it can cause misunderstandings ... Classes 011 and 012 were class 01.10. Class 042 was class 41. Class 043 was class 44. Classes 050 through 053 where class 50. Classes 42, 43, and 52 also existed (or still exist). If M* had a model of class 42 - I'd buy it ... |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS  |
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Joined: 21/01/2004(UTC) Posts: 1,277
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Quote:[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Webmaster <br />I am a bit surprised that noone has mentioned the K4T30 Steifrahmtender which was also used with the BR52...
I'm silently hoping for a 4MFOR version of this one, with some panzers  . Are there any 3R HO models available with this tender?
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Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC) Posts: 11,165
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I only know of Gützold making BR52 w this tender, in post war DR version... Not 3R, but can be converted... |
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service... He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb] |
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