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Offline leesauer  
#1 Posted : 21 February 2008 22:52:13(UTC)
leesauer

United States   
Joined: 24/01/2008(UTC)
Posts: 92
Location: Sacramento, CA
Hi everyone,

I'm new to Marklin, but having a fine time. I know that US DC locs can't be used on Marklin track without modification, but what about US cars? If they don't have any electrical functionality, can they be run without problems behind Marklin locs? (I presume I'll have to replace the couplers, but do I need to do anything else?)

Thanks,

Lee Sauer
Sacramento, CA
Lee Sauer
Sacramento, CA
Offline Katchina  
#2 Posted : 21 February 2008 23:01:32(UTC)
Katchina


Joined: 12/06/2007(UTC)
Posts: 112
Location: Spontin,
Apparently you'll also need to replace wheels most of the time. I don't really understand why since we're going from 2 rails to 3 rails (the other way might cause problems if you short the two rails with full metal cars).

I suppose it's a matter of wheels exact shape and dimension...

Also I believe some cars and coaches are not designed to be operated on the smaller radius curves that many M* users have (cue in the long-lasting flame war regarding toy trains, real-scale modelling, etc, etc, etc).
Offline dntower85  
#3 Posted : 21 February 2008 23:34:45(UTC)
dntower85

United States   
Joined: 08/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,218
Location: Shady Shores, TX - USA
I have had luck with some DC wheels on marklin track if they can slide on the axel, I have pressed them in to match the width of marklin AC wheels. The DC wheels are spaced too wide to go through a turn out and typically force the frog off the main rail. with a little tweeking they work but most cars US cars don't like R1 curves. Also you lose the capability it activate contact tracks.
DT
Now powered by ECoS II unit#2, RocRail
era - some time in the future when the space time continuum is disrupted and ICE 3 Trains run on the same rails as the Adler and BR18's.
Offline hmsfix  
#4 Posted : 22 February 2008 00:05:33(UTC)
hmsfix


Joined: 06/02/2005(UTC)
Posts: 1,383
Location: Darmstadt,
Hi,

I am using a number of freight cars mady by US manufacturers on my M* layout. It is difficult to make a general rule whether this works well or not. Nevertheless I'll try to summarize the most important points:

- Couplers: In combination with US made cars I can recommend using Kadee couplers on M* stuff, provided the cars have no buffers (as is the case for M*'s US cars and locos). No problem if the M* cars have NEM pockets, which can easily be equipped with Kadee #17, #18, or #19 couplers. Actually, it's the only method, as AFAIK there is no US car or loco where you could install a M* short coupler.

- wheel sets. US cars usually have RP-25 wheel sets according to the NMRA standards. These wheels have very low flanges, much lower than the flanges of M* wheel sets, and even lower than the wheel sets of DC cars mode by European manufacturers, which correspond to the NEM rules, not to NMRA.

On Märklin tracks, special rules apply: to my experience, american RP-25 wheels are incompatible to M*'s K-tracks. You have to insert wheel sets which correspond to the NEM rules, either those for DC or AC model railroads (differnet rules !). AC wheel sets is the natural choice for M* users, but they make difficulties with a large number of US cars, as the high wheel flanges tend to touch the bottom of their frames, due to their high flanges of the wheel. For example I have a few Model Power Metaltrain flat cars on my layout. Absolutely great models which have a prototypically low profile, and they are delivered with RP-25 wheel sets from the US, naturally. Unfortunately, it is absolutely impossible to combine them with wheel sets conforming to the NEM standards for AC wheels. So I have inserted NEM wheel sets for DC! That works well. The flanges of NEM DC are higher as RP-25, but not as high as NEM-AC. Quite difficult to understand, isn't it ? It's a science.

On C-tracks, things seem to be easier. RP-25 wheels seem to run reliably here, so there is no need to replace them with whatever other wheel sets. However, there are exceptions as well. Some members of this forum have reported that RP-25 wheels tend to derail in specific situations, especially on curved turnouts.

- Passenger coaches. [xx(] Get a master of Zen Buddhism before you try this: Minimum radii, high flanges, couplers, overhang in curves. This are the most relevant issues. And there are more. See it the positive way: you'll become such a Zen master if you get engaged in this topic. biggrin

If it was that easy, we didn't need MRR forums.

Hans Martin

Offline leesauer  
#5 Posted : 22 February 2008 00:58:30(UTC)
leesauer

United States   
Joined: 24/01/2008(UTC)
Posts: 92
Location: Sacramento, CA
Thanks everyone for the excellent and quick information.

Since I was thinking just about running my NMRA conference boxcar along with my Christmas cars under the tree this year (which will be C track), it looks like I won't have any trouble.

Some questions about couplers. OK, it's clear I really need to go to Kindergarten here, so please be patient. What are buffers? I've seen the term all the time in M's catalog (describing the length of cars), but I clearly haven't a clue what's being talked about. What are NEM pockets? I assume NEM is a TLA (three-letter-acronym), but what does it stand for? If I replace the couplers in my car with the Kadees, do I need to replace the corresponding couplers in the car it will mate to or will it mate to the standard M couplers? If I need to replace the couplers in my M cars too, do I only need to replace the coupler(s) I'll actually be connecting my US car to, or do I need to replace every coupler in the train? Can I determine (without buying a set of each and trying them) which of the #s 17, 18, or 19 I need? If so, how?

As I said, it's kindergarten time on this topic for me, so your responses are very much appreciated.

Thanks,

Lee Sauer
Sacramento, CA
Lee Sauer
Sacramento, CA
Offline WelshMatt  
#6 Posted : 22 February 2008 01:09:18(UTC)
WelshMatt


Joined: 06/10/2006(UTC)
Views messages in topic : 1,345
Location: ,
I can answer the buffers one - see this photo:

http://www.railfaneurope...ite/50808234089-6-mt.jpg

The buffers are the rectangular (ish - not really rectangles on this!) pads above the air hoses. The hook between them is the coupling - a screw link to take tension loads and buffers for compression loads. The pads are spring loaded. The idea is to tighten the screw link until the buffers make good contact, which reduces slack in the train and gives a smoother ride.

Regarding couplings, you can just swap those on one end of two Marklin cars to Kadees and run them either side of the Kadee-fitted cars. Alternatively you can swap all your Marklin couplings for Kadees - it's up to you. I know the three different NEM-compatible (no idea what it stands for, but in this case it refers to a standard socket for couplings) Kadees are different lengths but I don't know which would be best for this.
Matt from Wales.

When you pay Range Rover prices, don't accept Lada quality
Offline hmsfix  
#7 Posted : 22 February 2008 01:46:26(UTC)
hmsfix


Joined: 06/02/2005(UTC)
Posts: 1,383
Location: Darmstadt,
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by leesauer
<br />Thanks everyone for the excellent and quick information.

Since I was thinking just about running my NMRA conference boxcar along with my Christmas cars under the tree this year (which will be C track), it looks like I won't have any trouble.

Some questions about couplers. OK, it's clear I really need to go to Kindergarten here, so please be patient. What are buffers? I've seen the term all the time in M's catalog (describing the length of cars), but I clearly haven't a clue what's being talked about. What are NEM pockets? I assume NEM is a TLA (three-letter-acronym), but what does it stand for? If I replace the couplers in my car with the Kadees, do I need to replace the corresponding couplers in the car it will mate to or will it mate to the standard M couplers? If I need to replace the couplers in my M cars too, do I only need to replace the coupler(s) I'll actually be connecting my US car to, or do I need to replace every coupler in the train? Can I determine (without buying a set of each and trying them) which of the #s 17, 18, or 19 I need? If so, how?

As I said, it's kindergarten time on this topic for me, so your responses are very much appreciated.

Thanks,

Lee Sauer
Sacramento, CA


Hi Lee,

Sorry, this MRR slang is like a Malaria attack. It comes and goes, and you don't have any control on it [:I]

I have made two pics from my US stuff, showing a coupler of one of my M* US tank cars. The yellow arrow points at the NEM pocket: a small plastic slot on the car frame where you can plug the corresponding couplers in.

That's special for most of the newer MRR roling stuff made by european manufacturers. Also most Märklin cars and locos have it. NEM means "Normen europäischer Modelbahnhersteller", or "Standards of european mrr manufacturers" in english. Whereas NMRA is "North American Model Railroad Assoc.", if I'm right. Painfully different standards, BTW.

Well, which type of coupler fits into a NEM pocket ? Of course, Märklin short couplers. These couplers have an elastic tail which precisely snaps into the pocket. Fortunately, the US manufacturers, such as Kadee, were smart enough to offer their very different coupling system with the same kind of tail, which also fits into the NEM pocket. On the picture you can see a Märklin short coupler, and a Kadee coupler (item #18) beneath the car.

UserPostedImage

Next pic displays the same car with the Kadee #18 inserted:

UserPostedImage

I hope these picture can help you a little. If you have questions, feel free to ask.

Hans Martin
Offline leesauer  
#8 Posted : 22 February 2008 02:26:42(UTC)
leesauer

United States   
Joined: 24/01/2008(UTC)
Posts: 92
Location: Sacramento, CA
You guys are terrific!!!

Thanks so much for all the information!

Best regards,

Lee Sauer
Sacramento, CA
Lee Sauer
Sacramento, CA
Offline PierreGILLARD  
#9 Posted : 22 February 2008 14:57:55(UTC)
PierreGILLARD


Joined: 09/11/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,346
Location: Longueuil, Quebec
Hello Lee,

You may find some ideas on my website. wink

Pierre.
Offline john black  
#10 Posted : 22 February 2008 15:52:17(UTC)
john black

United States   
You have been a member since:: 22/04/2004(UTC)
Posts: 12,139
Location: New York, NY
Hi Lee Smile - welcome to the bunch Cool
More pictures on U.S. locos at my layout forum pages (forget the layout) [xx(]biggrin


The very best stuff I've seen in my life are
Al's, Antonio's and Cliff's truly excellent layouts ... CoolCoolCool

www.marklinfan.net/usa.htm

www.marklinfan.net/antonio_zambelli.htm

http://magnoliaroute.com/magnolia%20route.htm



I hope no one visits a poor Southener's layout in Brooklyn. Intruders beware of Gators.
AT&SF, D&RGW, T&P, SP, WP, UP, BN, NYC, ARR, epI-III - analog & digital Marklin Classics only.
CU#6021 FX-MOTOROLA DIGITAL SYSTEM. Fast as lightning and no trouble. What else ...
Outlaw Member of BIG JUHAN's OUTSIDER CLUB. With the most members, worldwide

Offline efel  
#11 Posted : 23 February 2008 16:31:12(UTC)
efel

France   
Joined: 23/02/2005(UTC)
Posts: 800
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Katchina
<br />Apparently you'll also need to replace wheels most of the time. I don't really understand why since we're going from 2 rails to 3 rails (the other way might cause problems if you short the two rails with full metal cars).


I would say that the AC wheels give the possibility to use the track detection by insulating one of the 2 rails and using the fact that the insulated rail will be shorted if a wagon/coach is present.
It's then possible to secure the layout in case a wagon has been unfortunately uncoupled from the train and is staying on a block.
It's also often used to control a crossing gate.
A big advantage compared to 2 rails system.
Fred
Offline nfotis  
#12 Posted : 27 February 2008 02:17:04(UTC)
nfotis


Joined: 13/12/2006(UTC)
Posts: 125
Location: ,
Hello there,

I am VERY surprised to hear that RP-25 wheels have problems with K-track.

It is serious? (I bought a Trix wagon set for the Big Boy, and they are the RP25 version - I haven't yet been able to try these in my modules).

I am using K-track flextrack 2205, and I plan on using the long turnouts.

Regards,
N.Fotis
Offline hmsfix  
#13 Posted : 27 February 2008 11:12:47(UTC)
hmsfix


Joined: 06/02/2005(UTC)
Posts: 1,383
Location: Darmstadt,
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by nfotis
<br />Hello there,

I am VERY surprised to hear that RP-25 wheels have problems with K-track.

It is serious? (I bought a Trix wagon set for the Big Boy, and they are the RP25 version - I haven't yet been able to try these in my modules).

I am using K-track flextrack 2205, and I plan on using the long turnouts.

Regards,
N.Fotis


Hi nfotis,

Unfortunately, yes. To my experience RP-25 wheel sets can cause derailments on K-track turnouts, even on the long ones (# 22715/16). Had that problem with my US cars. These cars do not derail every time when they pass the turnouts, the probability is more like 1 out of 100. And that already spoils the reliability of train operations [xx(]

On the other hand, with simple straight, curved, or flexible K-track RP-25 seems to run well, never had any problems here. But the turnouts...

Eventually you could consider to take C-track turnouts on your layout. Seems that they are compatible with RP-25.

BTW my RP-25 cars and wheel sets are not made by Trix but by US manufacturers. Maybe there are differences in wheel set designs, as RP-25 as well as NEM leave room for tolerances.

Regards

Hans Martin
Offline john black  
#14 Posted : 27 February 2008 11:34:53(UTC)
john black

United States   
You have been a member since:: 22/04/2004(UTC)
Posts: 12,139
Location: New York, NY
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by hmsfix
<br />Eventually you could consider to take C-track turnouts on your layout

Hi Hans Martin Smile,

with a K-track layout it's way easier (and cheaper) to change just the wheel sets ...
I hope no one visits a poor Southener's layout in Brooklyn. Intruders beware of Gators.
AT&SF, D&RGW, T&P, SP, WP, UP, BN, NYC, ARR, epI-III - analog & digital Marklin Classics only.
CU#6021 FX-MOTOROLA DIGITAL SYSTEM. Fast as lightning and no trouble. What else ...
Outlaw Member of BIG JUHAN's OUTSIDER CLUB. With the most members, worldwide

Offline nfotis  
#15 Posted : 27 February 2008 18:57:30(UTC)
nfotis


Joined: 13/12/2006(UTC)
Posts: 125
Location: ,
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by hmsfix
Eventually you could consider to take C-track turnouts on your layout. Seems that they are compatible with RP-25.


The reasons I am using K-track in my modules are:
- flextrack 2205
- the long turnouts that are supposedly compatible with 2-rail motive power (have ordered these from Lokshop, I will check how these work).
- cost (C-track is hideously expensive!)

Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:BTW my RP-25 cars and wheel sets are not made by Trix but by US manufacturers. Maybe there are differences in wheel set designs, as RP-25 as well as NEM leave room for tolerances.


In case we encounter problems with the Trix cars (I really hope not!), I will just get a bag of NEM wheelsets and be done with it...
I hope the USA-built locomotives and wagons some of us want to run on our FREMO-compatible modules will have no problems.

Cheers,
N.F.
Offline sudibarba  
#16 Posted : 28 February 2008 04:50:10(UTC)
sudibarba

United States   
Joined: 28/07/2006(UTC)
Posts: 876
Location: Augusta, GA USA
Take a look at www.frankenbahn.de

Click on "model Railway Corner"

Click on "Around the Rolling Stock"

Scroll down and select "DC-type wagons on Marklin-layouts"

Eric
Offline ulf999  
#17 Posted : 28 February 2008 19:36:41(UTC)
ulf999


Joined: 12/05/2005(UTC)
Posts: 1,908
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Thanks. That was a very thorough description of the wheelsets!
Ulf, American HO. www.goldenvalleyroute.com/
Offline monster134  
#18 Posted : 28 February 2008 20:32:45(UTC)
monster134

South Africa   
Joined: 23/10/2007(UTC)
Posts: 705
Location: ,
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by john black
<br />Hi Lee Smile - welcome to the bunch Cool
More pictures on U.S. locos at my layout forum pages (forget the layout) [xx(]biggrin


The very best stuff I've seen in my life are
Al's, Antonio's and Cliff's truly excellent layouts ... CoolCoolCool

www.marklinfan.net/usa.htm

www.marklinfan.net/antonio_zambelli.htm

http://magnoliaroute.com/magnolia%20route.htm






OH MY SOUL.......these are the best layouts ive ever seen.That Antonio guy......im nowhere.[:0]
If at any stage in the defusing of a bomb,you should see a bomb technician running,try your utmost best to keep up with him-Army magazine of preventative action.
Offline john black  
#19 Posted : 08 March 2008 00:41:29(UTC)
john black

United States   
You have been a member since:: 22/04/2004(UTC)
Posts: 12,139
Location: New York, NY
biggrin
I hope no one visits a poor Southener's layout in Brooklyn. Intruders beware of Gators.
AT&SF, D&RGW, T&P, SP, WP, UP, BN, NYC, ARR, epI-III - analog & digital Marklin Classics only.
CU#6021 FX-MOTOROLA DIGITAL SYSTEM. Fast as lightning and no trouble. What else ...
Outlaw Member of BIG JUHAN's OUTSIDER CLUB. With the most members, worldwide

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