This is just my third posting, and maybe I shouldn't start whining just yet. But I will, because I'm in a really lousy mood right now...[:(!]

I've been getting a lot of bad Märklin-stuff from my dealers lately. Some examples:

39420: Big scratch in paint on front of loco and broken plastic part. Box was completely undamaged. This must have happened before loco was packed (sent to Märklin 8 month ago, has not returned!!!).
39120: Fingerprints on DB-logo on the side of loco (made before paint was dry). Returned from Märklin together with message "Nothing wrong". When I got the loco back, railing in front of drivers cab was broken and the small "plastic couplers" was missing...
39121: Small damage in paint in front of loco. Roof-painting full of dust and particles. I've kept the loco as it is. I didn't feel like going through all the trouble yet another time...
37482: Steps and platform-railing broken. Damaged parts changed by Märklin at no cost to me.
43192: Steps broken... (once again, not even a dint in the box. Must have been packed damaged by Märklin...) Once again I didn't have the strength to go through all the fuzz. I bought a new one...

I have of course received a lot of good stuff too. But the ratio of good to bad has really been astonishing!

But my bad mood today comes from receiving 3x46255 and one 39500. Two of the waggons lacked one pair of reels each!!! And 4-5 of the waggons didn't look good at all. "Beschichted mit echtem Eisenerz". Yes, sure! The waggons looked like bald old men. Not much iron ore there... Worst of all, you could see bright spots were the iron ore had been. And since the packages were sealed and there wasn't any iron ore laying around in the packages, one has to draw the conclusion that the waggons were shipped in this state.

The 39500 looked really good but the railing in front of the drivers cab is bent/curved on both sides. Not a big fault, but believe me, it looks really ugly! And of course. Knowing it, it's the first thing I notice when I take a look at the loco.

There will always be small problems, but lately there has really been to many.
Is it my dealers? Don't think so. I mainly use two and I've had problems with deliveries from both...
The most likely explanation I can find is that Märklin doesn't really care what they deliver to their customers, as long as they can make a buck or two...

The Japanese changed quality-thinking in the late 80s by removing
the complaints-departements and instead assuring that everything that left their factories was 100% OK ("Kaizen").
I thought all western companies copied this concept in the 90s and judging from the quality of Märklin at that period, so did they. But now they seem to be struggling...

I know that they have had financial issues and that there has been big changes. But still...

So why this post? I really don't know... Maybe I just wanted to let some steam out... I tried whining to my wife, but she looked upon me in a strange way and said:"First you buy toys for thousand of euros and then you feel miserable when they arrive. Solution is easy; stop buying!"
Right know I feel like following her advice...

I've seen a lot of dicussions about the latest c-sinus engines and the ESU decoders. But have anyone experienced the same "cosmetic problems" that I have?

/mjrallare[xx(]

Hi Guus!

My orders are sent to me. And that's of course always a "risk". Even though the stuff is always perfectly packed with a lot of "shock-absorbing" material things could happen. But as you say, it doesn't explain all the problems I've described above.

The biggest "transportation-problem" I've found to be the "wear" on the paint at for example the waggon ends. But I don't accuse Märklin for being responsible for this. And now they always have these "plastic-sheets" on top of the waggons. So hopefully this problem is now gone.

I don't like to say it, because I'm a 100% "Märklinist" and complaining about Märklin products feels like making negative comments about my mother. But I'm afraid that production-efficiency and profitability in the short run has overtaken customer satisfaction in Märklin decision-making...

But I saw in MM that Axel Dietz said that the "reconstruction-phase" now is over, so hopefully that will change.

And then again, maybe it's just happening to me. But I find that hard to believe...

/Torbjörn (mjrallare)

Sorry to hear your problems but if you look through the forum you will see this is now common and indeed the quality control is hopeless.
I would however say that your dealer (s) have some responsibility here and should be able to check what they are sending to you. It could be some damage is in the post but I have found this to be rare.
As I said recently my local Roco dealer checks every loco before despatch and therefore has very few complaints.
My hope was that Ms new owners would be able to rectify the problems but so far this has not happened.
I am now very selective in what I buy from Marklin and recently have bought a HAG and a Brawa loco both of which have been excellent straight out the box. I will be getting a Marklin loco at Christmas and my first concern will be...will it work... in the past I would never have thought of this.
Do not let your findings put you off Marklin completely but remember there are other brands which you can buy until Marklin is sorted one way or another.

David

I always check every loco that I buy in the shop.
After that, I decide to buy it.
Saved me a lot of troubles.

Sorry to hear Torbjörn.
I myself havn't encountered this problem since there hasn't been anything (well a few double alco PAs but...) to catch my interest from M lately. My latest(last?) items are from 2005. As John wrote, no probs there!

Have you bought from stores in Germany or from the shop in Luleå in Sweden?

Yeah, I agreed with you. I have 39500 with one piece went missing on arrive.

I rate marklin are 80% quality.[xx(]

Yep Thats Marklin now. Stick to the older stuff and buy new models which have been tried and tested by the forum.
Remember though that many of the problems come from ESU which hopefully M can get another supplier in the future.

David

Ron : I agree that Marklin has major problems and as I said the older stuff is better. However many faults come from decoders and to get a loco going again a repalcement decoder is often all that is required. HAG of course had major problems with ESU decoders and apart from one faulty loco any of my problems have been with the decoder. I would agree that about a third of the trouble comes via ESU and a new supplier of decoders and although now I expect too late of the CS would be good.
Surely I am not like Lutz lol. I think my comments on the Insider Club and the fact that buying older Marklin models gives some idea of my view of M at present.
However lets hope there are better times coming as we do not want to lose folk like Monster from the Marklin brand.

David

h-zero,
How do you like the 29840 BR85 other than the couplers? I'm guessing that the 29840 is same as 37095/6 except with sound. So it has been produced for a while (2002) and should have any bugs worked out. Thanks.

Heard economic info on TV :
During last 2 years , more than 1200 German Manufacturers from " syndicat de la metallurgie" ( please help me for english translation : "metall-industry syndicate" ? )rapatriate activities they have delocalized before .
Mostly for one reason : quality problems .They spent too much time to correct ( to cure) defaults or study how to correct them in Germany . The profits & all the good the delocalization did they have been undone . So they found more profitable to come back in Germany .
My personnal opinion is also that there are several convergent factors .

This sounds familiar:

"So why this post? I really don't know... Maybe I just wanted to let some steam out... I tried whining to my wife, but she looked upon me in a strange way and said:"First you buy toys for thousand of euros and then you feel miserable when they arrive. Solution is easy; stop buying!"

Except, I don't do this although I have the same feeling the first days :
"Right know I feel like following her advice...: " of coarse feeling and doing is great difference[}:)]

Quality is becoming a strong issue for bringing back development and manufactoring to the "high cost countries". This is also the case for the IT sector.

Frank

Maybe they are just preparing their customer base for the day when Bachmann does own Marklin...[xx(]

Well, I’ve taken the time to do some reading in this forum. And in a way I wish I hadn’t…

I think I was better off living in my own small world, playing with my trains, and believing I was the only one having problems with the Märklin products…

Some reflections:
The smart thing to do in order avoid bad products, would of course be to check the loco before you buy it. Problem is; it’s far between the dealers here in Sweden … You can of course ask a dealer to order a loco for you, but then the dealer looks upon this as a buy. This isn’t legally true (at least not in Sweden), but you’ll end up with an unpleasant discussion with the dealer if you for some reason don’t want the loco. Well one can live with that, but try asking that dealer to order another loco for you after that!

In some threads you see people trying to defend Märklin with all kinds of arguments. I can understand that. Not long ago I would have done that myself. But to many of us it's quite clear that Märklin seems to be struggling when it comes to the quality of their products.
And that’s not surprising! We can always discuss how big and why, but clearly there has been big changes within Märklin. It’s the classical problem that comes with swift cost reduction; quality problems.
Mr Axel Dietz seems to try to emphasize that a lot of things will still be made in Germany in the future. Problem is; what’s that worth if the products have faults?
Because for some reason products with faults are leaving the Märklin factories. How many we don't know, but clearly, too many. (Everything cannot be explained by transportation "accidents").
Why this is I don’t know… Maybe the remaining working force feels overworked and underpayed. Maybe som are bitter towards Märklin for some reasons. Maybe middle-management are so hard pressed to meet different goals (both in pieces and figures) that they accept some small quality problems (or turns a blind eye towards them). Maybe top management have decided that some quality issues are unavoidable and even acceptable in order to get back "on track"...

Somehow I can’t see that one of these “sturdy” German women that you can see in Märklin catalogues of the past would box a loco with cosmetic or mechanical problems. And I think that the different levels of management in Märklin would have agreed with them. With all these recent changes maybe it isn’t as obvious to the Märklin workers today to report this kind of problems… “Let’s box it and let someone else deal with the problems”…

I like fishing by the way, so I buy a lot of fishing reels. Mainly Japanese… All these reels (cheap or expensive) have a “tag” on them with a code identifying the one who has boxed the reels and approved them for delivery. What that says to me is; “we are not afraid to take responsibility for our products in this company”.

Of course, Märklin management is 100% aware that they are having quality issues. There's no doubt about that. But I’m afraid that it will take some time to sort these problems out. And time they don’t have… So why don’t start immediately by “tagging” the locos? I mean they are still checking them for function aren’t they? Well put them on a “pooter’s wheel” also, and give them a spin. If everything is OK, you “tag them“ and box them.
And this work should be carried out by “independent people” ( that is people who are not responsible to managers within the production line). Maybe Mr Dietz himself could do some “tagging” every now and then? That would surely show everyone within Märklin (and others!) that quality questions are extremely important to Märklin top-management!

/Torbjörn

I think a lot of dealers nowadays care only about the money, not about customer care, and that's in general, not just model railroad dealers. Of course, they don't sell as much as they might once have done, so their profit margins are a lot lower.

Luckily, both my Marklin dealer (local brick & mortar shop and online) and my Japanese trains dealer (also brick & mortar and online) seem to actually care about the things they sell and the hobby itself, so I've gotten excellent support from them.

Well don't get me wrong, I LOVE Märklin. I'm sure this is "quite typical" (although I guess you try a little harder if you're being filmed).
But the problem is that I buy a lot of Märklins stuff, and I've been getting a lot lately that isn't 100% as it should be...
My first reaction was actually to blame my dealer (I've used mainly one, but began to put my money with another dealer too), but I realize they cannot be blamed for everything. Just as an example; the 46255 waggon-set (I bought three). These were "sealed" by adhesive tape and hadn't been opened. Yet some of the waggons looked awful. They lacked iron ore and were it had been, you could see lighter marks in the paint. And no iron ore laying about in the boxes... And two of the waggons lacked one pair of weels each.

I too want to believe that Märklin is the same "good old company" as they used to be, but I find it harder and harder to believe that...
All I can do is to be very selective in my buying, and hope that they will be able to correct whatever is wrong as fast as possible...

/Torbjörn

I agree with all the above. But why continue to buy (OK I know we are Marklin daft) If it is faulty let the dealer know and also Marklin.
Instead of waiting weeks or months for replacements get a refund and buy the model later if the faults have been put right at the factory. If the dealer is slow with a refund then go to the credit card company and get them to refund your cash which they will do (at least it is the law in this country)
If dealers lose money and sales then I would hope they will let Marklin know and perhaps we will get somewhere. If your dealer is helpful and does refund then buy another model from him to show your support of his good service. (try a Brawa or HAG)
There are now a considerable number complaining on the forum which allows us to let off steam but does not help improve the product. Your contract is with your dealer so hit him where it hurts...his profits.
My comments here do not apply to the dealers who are members of the forum as I am fully aware of the excellent service they give and if they were not all in the USA then they would get my business.

David

Some of the problems seen here seem to be not with quality, but with quality control, and this is what is on the name of this thread.

I would like to think that there are some slip-ups in quality control, but the marklin quality we are used to is mostly still there. I refer to the quality of the design, the materials, the function, and the aesthetics of the model.

If someone has scratched a model in the production process and this hasn't been picked up, or they've forgotten to put part of the product in the box, this is clearly a quality control issue. The basic quality of the product is still there. It's like getting a Rolls Royce and finding the ashtrays are missing. Very annoying, but it's still a Rolls!

I hope this is just a transitional thing, and they'll soon settle down to normal.

Ray

Ray's comment about "quality" vs. "quality control" is very valid, although I would normally not put my words that way. Both are different aspects of "quality", I would say. But let's use Ray's vocabularity since it is easy to understand it.

Many of you refer to the Märklin of old days. Do you have short memory, or have you been luckier than I have? Märklin "quality control" hasn't been all that good before either. My ratio of erratic vs correct Märklin items hasn't increased over the years. Rather the opposite. But the absolute number of erratic items has increased, because I can afford to buy much more now than 10 - 30 years ago.

There are however two factors that clearly have increased the annoyance factor of bad "quality control" the last say 10 years:

One is the shift in distribution from local dealers to Internet stores. You may claim that the customers should blame themselves since they are illoyal to the local dealers. But, at least in Sweden, it is rather the other way around. Local dealers started to decay or disappear already before Internet shopping became common. Anyway, Internet shopping makes it impossible to inspect the item before buying, and makes it so much more cumbersome and time consuming to complain on a defect item. On top of it, you get all the transport damages that you didn't get by carrying the items home from your local dealer.

The other is the fact that models get more and more technically advanced, more and more elaborated and more and more detailed. Minor problems on a sturdy and rather simple all-mechanical model could often be fixed without much thoughts about it. Now there is a lot of electronics and more advanced mechanics, and you need more than just common sense to understand how it really works or should work. Even the "simple" errors aren't simple anymore.

---

So, what's my conclusion: The problem is not so much a real decay, but rather the fact that Märklin has failed to respond sufficiently to the increased quality control requirements imposed by changes in distribution channels and product complexity. No doubt they need to do something about it. "Quality control" problems are not good for the brand name, but above all they cost money (if the customers claim their warranty).

I dont think we should pass the buck to the dealer.In my case,i simply cant.Out here in Africa,its a mission to send a loco back to Germany or whatever.Yes the dealer will do it,but im without my loco for months.Not acceptable....sorry.

I thought long and hard on what brand im going with.And everybody in the know was saying the same thing...Marklin is helluva expensive,but it is the best stuff.I ran with the ball.

Too say the least,im very dissappointed.As i mentioned earlier,every single new loco i bought had a problem.In the same breath,i bought 13 older locos,some of them converted locally to digital.I received my old 3310 BR01 tonight.Shiny wheels and running gear the toot,and the way this loco runs is amazing.To put things in perspective,im busy building a layout,so my tracks are nowhere near perfect,but the 3310 went right round first time without even hesitating.No wheelspin,nada.It just goes....everywhere.

And im too new in this game to be a brand slut.My mind is made up.39050 is on its way to me,but its the last new Marklin i will buy.I ordered a new Roco yesterday,and it will be here in 3 weeks.Reason is,i bought 3 Marklin ballast hopper cars and for the same money i got 6 Roco hoppers.You cannot tell the difference,except that imo the Rocos are better runners.Detail wise there is no difference.So why pay the premium?

Luckily i have a guy here selling all his stuff,as he is going to N-scale,and he still has about 400 older locos left.If it says MFX....im out of there.Not interested.I cannot spend the whole day pushing trains around.

I will get all the old 5 poles from him and when its finished,i will go to another manufacturer.If this new Roco produces the goods,i can live with a plastic body.There is no way it can look worse than my very expensive Bellingrodt.There is also no way it can run worse.

Marklin should pull their fingers out their arses.Im definitely not alone over here.They WILL lose customers.And i for one hate to be ignored.

Good idea, Ron
Got only three from the 2007 stuff (2x SP ALCO PA-1, 1x NSB NOHAB DI-3) - all excellent, so far [^]
But then both are long-time, proven models (see also the related posts in HO-Forum)

On the other hand - that #60760 decoder set (new stuff) my dealer upgraded Little Enzo's
AMTRAK F7 with engaged two of my $$$ Gators, sending them into the sunset when driving by. Junk [xx(]

In the past 4 years I have bought numerous new Maerklin locomotives (more than I want to count or add up but in multiple dozens) and have never had any problems except with the BR50 that came with the mega-set and that was only recently. Everything out of the box has worked perfectly. I also learned not to have the pantographs in the locked position when raising them...yikkes. When I was doing American company HO, it was rare than any locos worked properly let alone performed consistently out of the box. Thanks, Maerklin for your quality, at least in recent years.

Monster : Dont keep locos that dont work. Get a refund from your dealer. He may be a nice guy and the only local dealer you have but that doesnt mean you have to accept goods that are faulty. The fault may lie with Marklin but if you dont send the stuff back then they get away faulty goods.
Just a quick note about Roco in my view they are not long lasting and not as good as Ms locos. Coaches and wagons are OK but thats about it.

David

Sorry but I disagree. I would like to say: ”Shame on you Märklin for treating me like this, after all the money I’ve put into your products during the last 15 years”.
I’ve even hesitated to buy a screw-driver if it didn’t have the name Märklin printed on it…

And Märklin has issues… It took more than six months before I got two locos back from Märklin, and one they just returned without any action (that’s my E10 with the fingerprints from one of Märklin’s employees on the DB-logo). My 39420 was sent to Märklin in the middle of Mars and yesterday my dealer told me that it’s still “in line for action”.

Mr Axel Dietz said in MM 04/2007 “…also haben wir zugig unsere Service-abteilung ausgebaut. Das hat nicht nur die Wartezeiten deutlich verkurzt, sondern auch geholfen, Reklamationen wesentlich schneller zu bearbeiten. …Ein weiteres Projekt wird unsere Reparaturabteilung betreffen. Die Organisation wird optimiert, um die Durchlaufzeiten noch kurzer zu machen.”

Don’t think they would put money into this unless they felt they really had to...

But Larry, you said in another post, that Mr Dietz was a personal friend of yours. Ask him how he looks upon what’s been discussed in this thread and then post the answer. Would be very interesting to hear.
And again; I lOVE the Märklin models. But how nice is it to watch a model were something’s wrong. Every time I look at the E10 the only thing I see is that fingerprint! So maybe that’s not a big problem, but it makes me feel lousy. And I feel even more lousy when I know I paid good money for that model. I think some of you guys understand me, we want our products to be perfect don't we? And before I could always (with very few exceptions) count on Märklin to be just that; perfect!

But of course most of Märklin production is good. I’m not saying that half of what’s leaving the factories have faults. I have no idea what the ratio could be. So of course it’s possible that most of you guys haven’t had any problems. If we ALL would have had bad experiences it would indeed be a total catastrophy for Märklin. So it isn’t that bad, but it’s bad enough. Too many of us have had problems…

Well I guess we could continue this discussion forever. Some of us have clearly had problems, some have not. We build on our own experiences when we make decisions. If we haven’t had any problems we continue buying, if we have had problems we will probably be less keen to put money into our hobby. I for one will buy one or two locos and a couple of waggons when the news for 2008 arrives. I won’t be able to resist… But it won’t be as much 2008 as it has been during the latest years.

/Torbjörn

@Torbjörn/mjrallere; Your explications/opinions are very well-written and simply spot on. I feel the same way, and have really nothing to add.

@John Black; My latest factory-new loco was the V80. I am VERY satisfied with it. For the price (~100€) it is very good value. Recommendable!