Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC) Posts: 6,764 Location: Brisbane, Australia
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I have a slight problem, and was wondering if anyone else has come across this, or maybe has a solution. Marklin must test all their rolling stock designs thoroughly before releasing, because I have never had any of their models derail, even on the smallest C track points and curves. The rolling design encompasses many facets, such as bogie swing, hangout over the curve, close coupler compatibility etc. I recently purchased a Brawa coach, #2445, and a very fine piece of modelling it is. I used the marklin 7203 coupler, and inserted it easily in the NEM pocket. I teamed up this coach with the Marklin 41352 and 41362 coaches, which are of a similar style. However, the coupler on the Brawa keeps fouling the buffers on small radius curves, because the coupler sits higher than on the Marklin cars. You can see this from the photo, Brawa car on the left, Marklin to the right.  My first intended solution involves Dremel-ing off the bottom half of the Brawa buffer faces. I believe they will not then foul the top of the coupler. I will certainly try this at my next foray in to the workshop, at least on one end, and track test. Of course this may spoil the model, but I am willing to do that to get it running. Second solution would be to lower the coupler NEM pocket or associated shanks on the Brawa. However, I cannot see any way of doing this. Does any one else have a suggestion? Thanks. regards Kimball |
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge. |
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Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC) Posts: 9,277
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Are wheeldiameter same both of the railwaycarriage...? What i know,says that it must been 11 mm:s wheeldiametres in all products factory to follow after NMRA:s rules inside of HO models...! See after if i have wrong or right... Goofy  |
H0 DCC = Digital Command Control
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Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC) Posts: 6,764 Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Hi Goofy, Thanks for raising that question. Brawa wheel diameter = 11mm Marklin wheel diammeter = 10.5mm Both are measured with vernier calipers.
I found that most of my Marklin stock (ones I have checked in the past) are 10.5mm
regards Kimball |
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge. |
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Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC) Posts: 9,277
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Hmmm...
0,5 mm is not enough and so big difference...!
The nemcoupling pocket is either wrong at Marklins or Brawas.
Can you try by change couplingpocket anyone of those models to same pocket...?
Goofy |
H0 DCC = Digital Command Control
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Joined: 26/10/2004(UTC) Posts: 461 Location: Bruges,
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Just a thought... Instead of modifying the coach, could there be a way of modifying the coupler itself (cutting & glueing) to make it sit lower in the original NEM-pocket? A failure would only result in the loss of a very cheap (1€)coupler. Easy to replace. IMO, worth a try before irreversably modifying that very nice coach. |
Kind regards, Pieter-Jan Bruges, Belgium. |
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Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC) Posts: 6,764 Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Hi Goofy, I will check coupler shanks on my various Marklin models, to see if one might be the same length and shape as the Brawa. I may be able to replace it. The shank on the M 41352/62 is too long for the Brawa.
regards Kimball |
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge. |
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Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC) Posts: 6,764 Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Hi Pieter-Jan, Yes that is a good suggestion. I see that I might be able to cut the 7203 coupler, and rejoin with a small brass shim or something, even if I lose say 3-4mm in the "close coupling" arrangement. I will try that, next time I can spend time in the workshop. Maybe next weekend.
regards Kimball |
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge. |
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Joined: 16/08/2006(UTC) Posts: 5,382 Location: Akershus, Norway
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Best regards Svein, Norway grumpy old sod
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Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC) Posts: 6,764 Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Thanks Svein, Good link to keep. I realise now, that I have a Marklin coupler height gauge, but I left it at a friend's house. I will retrieve that, and go through that check. When I look closely at the car, I believe that a second pocket glued or pinned under the first may just about get the correct height, and stop fouling the buffers as well.
regards Kimball |
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge. |
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Joined: 26/10/2004(UTC) Posts: 461 Location: Bruges,
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Kimball,
Looking at the picture, I would think adding a pocket under the original one will bring the coupling too low, it will touch the pukos on switches. Even glueing a coupler directly under the pocket will probably be too low. |
Kind regards, Pieter-Jan Bruges, Belgium. |
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Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC) Posts: 6,764 Location: Brisbane, Australia
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The link that Svein gives, show the NEM standard from rail to inside-top of pocket is designed to be 8.5mm. The Marklin 41362 is 8mm, and the Brawa 2445 is 9mm. The Brawa's extra height is enough to put the coupler in a fouling position with the buffers. I need to lower that pocket slightly, or rebuild the 7205 coupler itself, so that it is lower.
Thanks for all help so far. regards Kimball |
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge. |
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Joined: 02/07/2004(UTC) Posts: 1,448 Location: Italy
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I have the same problem with a lot of coaches produced by Roco, Rivarossi and Lima. This happen only using the marklin short coupler, so I've changed it with the Fleischmann model. Obviously you can leave the original Brawa that is compatible with marklin.
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Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC) Posts: 9,277
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It´s very strange that it has been so differents heights between models.
NMRA and NEM is for all factory by follow after that,so customer shall not been fool from after factorys willpower...!
Goofy [:(] |
H0 DCC = Digital Command Control
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Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 7,453 Location: Scotland
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I have found that not using close couplers works but of course does not look as good. On some coaches the buffers are adjustable. Brawa coaches are nice congrats.
David |
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer. |
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Joined: 25/11/2004(UTC) Posts: 1,106 Location: Guelph, Ontario
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Hi all,
Just bend the Marklin Coupler up a bit (0.5 mm is no Problem). You have to bend it with a pair of Pliers, hold the part which fits into the Nem pocket and bend the front end of Coupler up.
Martin
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marklin-eh |
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Joined: 23/08/2004(UTC) Posts: 764 Location: Bury St. Edmunds, Suffolk
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Before spoling your lovely coach why not put a marklin wheelset on the coach, might make enough difference. regards
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Regards
Geoff (UK)
marklin HO from the 50's and 60's |
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Joined: 06/10/2006(UTC) Posts: 1,345 Location: ,
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What about using Fleischmann Profi-couplers on that rake with a Marklin one at each end? If you tend to run fixed formations then this should be fine. |
Matt from Wales.
When you pay Range Rover prices, don't accept Lada quality |
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Joined: 10/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 2,162 Location: Portugal
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Quote:[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by WelshMatt <br />What about using Fleischmann Profi-couplers on that rake with a Marklin one at each end? If you tend to run fixed formations then this should be fine.
I have a seven unit set of these Brawa beauties and that's exactly the solution I use.
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Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC) Posts: 6,764 Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Thanks for all the terrific helpful replies. One way or another, I should be able to sort this out. I will report back in another few weeks (month?), and that will be most informative. Luis, congrats, that must be a nice 7 car set. I am hoping to add at least one other, the kitchen car #2449. regards Kimball |
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge. |
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Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC) Posts: 6,764 Location: Brisbane, Australia
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I have modified the coupling using a 5mm x 5mm (internal) brass box sleeve. It is made by K&S metals in Chicago, and should be available at most hobby shops. #154 7/32 square brass hollow. Firstly I removed the complete coupler shank from the Brawa model. I had to dismantle the car, by prising off the under-floor. I cut out the bottom of the Brawa box, and repositioned the cut-out piece at the top of the box. I also had to shave the outside of the box sides by about 1/10mm. This diagram shows how I cut the box to size, then fitted it over the existing Brawa coupler box.  The picture shows the end result. The Brawa coach is to the left, a standard Marklin coach to the right. The coupler no longer fouls the Brawa buffers. I am not particularly happy about this modification, firstly, it took me over 2 hours, secondly, I have to get a new set of coupler shanks to restore to original if necessary. I have ordered a set from Brawa. And in that regard, reading back over some of the replies, Alberto mentions the original Brawa coupler. Yes this is still in the box, and I had not thought of using it. I will try that when I restore an original Brawa coupler shank.  regards Kimball |
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge. |
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Joined: 12/09/2005(UTC) Posts: 5 Location: Detroit, MI
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Märklin friends!
I have also noticed this problem and done detailed measurements of coupler/buffer/car heights to find the root cause.
My conclusion is that this problem arises because Brawa has the temerity to actually build scale model cars.
Brawas buffers are 4.2 mm in height (M* buffers on these long cars are clipped on the bottom and are only 3.2 mm high - this is 0.7 mm undersize.
Brawas buffers are mounted 12.0 mm above the top-of-rail (prototype is 10.8 to 12.25; NEM 303 requires 11.7 to 12.7 mm. M* buffer midpoint varies from 12.6 to 13.0 car-to-car. This is high relative to NEM 303 and way out of prototype range.
M* mounts its couplers low relative to NEM 362 (top-of pocket 7.9 to 8.3 mm; Brawa top-of-pocket measures 8.5, which is right in the middle of the 8.3-8.7 allowable range.
Bottom line on all of this is that longer M* cars look way too high on their trucks but work w/ M* close coupler heads, whereas Brawa's cars look spectacular, but won't work with M* close-coupler heads on R1-R2 curves.
Butchering the gorgeous Brawa cars is an offense to beauty, so that's out of the question. I'm now designing a new layout with R4 min curve radius (which looks way better also).
You pays your money and makes your choice!
Paul B. Detroit MI USA |
Paul Berry Detroit MI USA Modeling the Siegerland in Märklin HO |
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Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC) Posts: 31,692 Location: United Kingdom
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Welcome here, Paul.  |
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy. |
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Joined: 23/03/2005(UTC) Posts: 2,497 Location: Denmark
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Thanks Paul for sharing your detailed findings
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Regards, Benny - Outsider and MFDWPL  |
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Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC) Posts: 6,764 Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Hi Paul, welcome to the forum, and thanks for you thoughts on this rather vexing question. And for the comprehensive explanation of the problem. I agree, butchering the Brawa car is really not the answer. And yes you are probably right about the R4 curves, which unfortunately for many Marklin users is not that practical.
After all that, I believe my final solution will be: Purchase replacement buffers, and Dremel off the bottom half. Easy to restore original buffers when required, but retain the M* close coupling for running.
regards Kimball |
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge. |
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Joined: 30/09/2005(UTC) Posts: 904 Location: bologna, BO
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This problem does not concern only Brawa! All cars produced by Roco, Lima, Heris, Rivarossi, ACME that I own have too low buffers (or too high couplers, I don't know). I normally use roco close couplers, but I'll try your solution, Kimball, because Marklin ones are much better! And, I reply to Paul, I have problems also with R4 curves, when sloped! You can use Marklin close couplers in 1:87 cars only in these two situations: - in slopes, but without curves - in a flat track, even with R2. Regards Pietro
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Joined: 06/10/2006(UTC) Posts: 1,345 Location: ,
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One thing that puzzles me - why do Brawa et al not provide close coupling in the box? If they just made the standard HO hook and loop couplers shorter they'd still work with everything else (like Marklin's do). |
Matt from Wales.
When you pay Range Rover prices, don't accept Lada quality |
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Joined: 12/09/2005(UTC) Posts: 5 Location: Detroit, MI
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There has been a recent discussion on another forum about using the Roco Universal coupling (this is *not* the same as the Roco close coupling head) in order to reduce this coupler-buffer interference problem.
Since the Roco Universal coupling is very similar to the M* close coupling but with a smaller loop (also open on one side), this would preserve compatibility with the M* close coupling.
1) Has anyone tried the Roco Universal coupling? Comments?
2) Specifically, did it reduce/eliminate the coupler/buffer interference?
Thanks!
Paul Berry Detroit MI USA ...modeling the Siegerland in Epoch II using Märklin H0 |
Paul Berry Detroit MI USA Modeling the Siegerland in Märklin HO |
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Joined: 30/09/2005(UTC) Posts: 904 Location: bologna, BO
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Hi Paul. The problem about Roco universal couplings, for what I know, is that they aren't produced anymore, and it seems that they won't in the future, because of patent or some legal stuff. Pietro
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Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC) Posts: 6,764 Location: Brisbane, Australia
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I just purchased another Brawa coach, # 45402 baggage, (yes I am a glutton for punishment), and I used the Marklin 7203 coupler, and it works perfectly, unlike the #2445. So now my era III passenger train looks good with a mix of Marklin and Brawa. Though to be honest, I will generally stick with Marklin - a bit cheaper overall. regards Kimball |
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge. |
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Joined: 15/04/2003(UTC) Posts: 2,734 Location: ,
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I've a number of BRAWA models too. They're very nice, very fragile and a bit expensive despite Made in China!  My cars (usually Württemberger and early SBB era) are an almost perfect fit to my other Märklin cars. My special favorites are the KWStB Kgl. Post car and the baggage car with milk cans, shown on the next pics.   Due to the rather long coupling distance with the original BRAWA couplings I've changed all of them to the Märklin short coupling - no problems so far!  Following is a picture with (most of) the couplings discussed here. From left to right: - ROCO short coupling (not compatible with any other coupling. A quite "popular" issue can be seen here too - the plastic extension bends easily outward which means the coupling will not work anymore. - ROCO universal coupling, height adjustable. Good to use with the new Märklin Schienenbus (if you want to pull some goods waggons). - ROCO universal coupling. Compatible with standard NEM362 couplings and Märklin short coupling. Due to the open coupling bow it will have problems when driving with a (typical Märklin shunting) loco with just a hook; it will simply uncouple in curves. As mentioned, they are currently not available due to patent issues. However, according to some rumors ROCO will come up soon or has already delivered a new "universal coupling Made by Modellbahn GmbH". - Standard coupling (ROCO shape) - Standard coupling (Märklin shape) - Standard coupling (BRAWA shape) - Märklin short coupling. Compatible with standard NEM362 couplings and ROCO universal coupling (amongst others). - Märklin/RTS electric conductive coupling. Compatible with standard NEM362 couplings and somewhat compatible/useable with Märklin short coupling. Not compatible with ROCO universal coupling.  In order to have the Märklin/RTS electric conductive coupling work seamless with the Märklin short coupling just cut out a small part from the coupling section as shown by the blue arrow in the next (just enlarged) pic. This will eliminate the barrier for the brass contact extension.   I've numerous ROCO, etc. cars. Their issue is the buffer height as mentioned by Pietro. Usually I overcome this in different ways: try to use the ROCO universal coupling at those cars, mount a Märklin short coupling w/o the metal coupling bow, remove the buffers (looks really ugly!) or shape them a bit. Hope this info helped some more about couplings; although it doesn't really address the coupling height issue as reported in the entry posting. 
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Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC) Posts: 6,764 Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Hi Lutz, I suspected that Brawa were made in China. Most of the fine car sets produced for US consumption (Walthers, Rapido, Broadway Limited etc) are made in China, and of similar build style and quality as Brawa.
But you have a nice set of cars there. regards Kimball |
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge. |
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