what r your opinions?
i am against nazis(i hate them) but i think it is part of train (and human)history
marklin should produce such locos only to remind us these dark ages

Only one comment:
History is history, and we must learn about it to avoid futures mistakes.
In that way it should be presented as it is, so objects of that era must be presented as they were, airplanes for example in museums has all it emblems.

Although this part of history is terrible, it is my opinion that models should be allowed. But I guess it will conquer a lot of opposition, especially with the older generation of modelrailroaders and that the producers will loose a lot of clients. On the other hand some might think that M* is pronouncing their politics by doing such. It's a tricky subject!
[:I]

good question - an issue I've wondered about before as well. I think the solution outlined in jorge's post is probably the best. Those who desire absolute realism can modify their equipment accordingly, and avoids a real touchy issue for M and other manufacturers...

My feeling is that if the prototype bore the swastika (or whatever symbol or words), a model of that prototype should also bear those same markings. You certainly see the swastika, Japanese rising sun, and other such symbols on military arcraft models, so why should trains be treated any differently? The past is past--it really is time for people to get on and just accept those things that cannot now be changed.

well not the eagle but the swastika was a symbol of ancient <greece> there r proofs in the museums(athens national museum)
hitler copied that emblem from a civilised culture(he discrased it)
i do not believe that he had in his mind those uncivilised tribes when he was in search of a symbol?
and besides that he was a <fun> of ancient <greek> culture

well thanos i do not disgree with kevin i believe that he must be correct but hitler must have done what i 've
said .he was inspired by nitse.nitse was admiring <greek> culture and....
anyway this is history and there is nothing bad about it thanos u should not be afraid we are only talking i must say that again in order to make it clear
nazism was the doom of europe so do not believe that i like these insane criminals
but i like history ,because history can teach u many things

I don't think it's Marklin's choice to stay away from it. As stated earlier, German law forbids its indiscriminate use and there is a good reason behind that. As modelers, I think we can sacrifice the so called "realism of the prototype" this once out of respect for those who perished. There is still enough hatred and anti-semitism in the world, and in Europe, without bringing back this symbol of a horrible time, that in some demented way, may serve to fuel the fire of those who continue to propagate hatred.

Bruce.

u r 50% correct

That's why I wrote: "...I partly disagree with Alonso about the origins of this symbol"

Some years ago, I worked on a PC game with N*zi theme. (They were the bad guys) We had trouble with selling in DE/EU, due to laws suppressing the swastica[xx(]. We had to re-write the game with Rodina as the bad guys. (Neither sold well[xx(])

The national insanity of DE in era II has left quite a lot of emotional residue. Even in the USA, when we see the crooked cross, lots of bad things come to mind, and those who wave that symbol are still insane.[:(!]

There may come a time when the nazis are just another historical footnote, like the Mongols or the Huns. Until then, I will accept the missing symbol and enjoy the mechanical marvels on my layout.

Well, since opinions were asked for, here's mine. As my wife is Jewish and we practice Judaism in our household, I have no love for the nazis whatsoever. But, I am also a very active military modeler as well as a modelrailroader, and when I do German WW2 aircraft I always include the necessary swastikas on the tail surface because that makes them correct representations of the machine I am doing. If someone comes into my house and sees a Stuka with said swastikas and takes offense, the problem is theirs. Not mine. So if you are trying to represent a certain piece of equipment and are concerned with accuracy, by all means include it. If, however, your layout should happen to use a mix of all eras then historical accuracy has already taken a back seat. I know it does on my layout!....Anyway, there's my opinion.

The problem is that an ancient generic sun symbol was used by someone as their party symbol in a dark period of the history in the 20th century. However, the symbol itself is not "bad", it was misused in that era and it has become that hated symbol that reminds us of the atrocities made during that period. When it comes to historical issues about the deaths of mankind, the one who had this symbol as his party sign was not as "succesful" in killing people as his eastern equivalent was during the same time.

As an example I can mention that 1/10th of the population of the country where my parents fled from during these years were deported from their country, never to be found again... They actually saw the Germans as "liberators" from the terror of the "reds"... My father even fought in a German uniform to defend his country from being taken over by the eastern dictator but finally had to flee to Sweden via Finland to keep alive...

This is indeed a sensitive subject, and the Germans will have to live with this historical burden for many years to come, even if similar things are going on in the world today. The thing is that many horrible things have been made to people and mankind throughout history, but the single thing that is remembered by most in history books is what was done under the "sun symbol" period of Germany... The symbol is forbidden by law in Germany, except when official history issues are on display, and that for a good reason - noone wants to stir up the shame and feelings of that era or promote something similar to happen again in Germany.

When it comes to the representation of emblems on Märklin models, they have chosen a "wise" way, they represent it as a square and those who are die-hard prototypicalists can modify it. I will never do that, however...


I am also happy to see that this subject has been handled wisely in the forum, since this subject normally leads to flame wars of emotions whenever discussed. Honor to all who have expressed themselves so far for not making this a burning issue...

I am German, I hate Nazis, and I think German laws go a little bit too far.
In the 70s when I began building model aircarafts they came with swastika decals.
Few months later the swastikas were painted black on the boxes and cut out of the decals. Now there are no more swastikas on model aircraft.
Personally I think swastikas should be allowed for model railways and model aircraft provided the models are highly detailed.
But the German laws are OK for me - and with most H0 scale models it doesn't make a difference at all (the red E18 with the big swastika as seen in the museum is an exception to the rule).
Corel had trouble with a Hitler clipart that came with Corel Draw, Microsoft had trouble with a swastika symbol included in one of their fonts.
The symbol is not bad, but some people still use it for evil purposes.
Best wishes

Leo,
If I recall this correctly, there was no escape from becoming a member
of the NSDAP. That`s what my Austrian mother told us about her father,
an engineer of the BBÖ, later incorporated into the Reichsbahn, when
Austria was annected by the "Reich". As a railroader and leftist he had to either quit his job or join the Nazi party. Needless to say that he joined them as a husband and a father of five minor children.
Quitting and finding a new job in a totalitarian society was simply
out of perspective.

As to the question regarding emblems and heralds.
As from 1933 the Reichsbahn used a simplified version of the "Reichsadler" in what you refer to as a wheel.
At the same time the circumferential lettering "Deutsche R..."
was removed.
In 1938, the eagle, now spreading its wings was placed atop the circle or wheel containing the swastika.

Regards,
Manfred

Leo, it's simple: Our good ol' Hollywood is what it is - a dream factory for entertaining people [:p] and making money , all fiction - values like ethic, moral or truth would never ever sell there. Why - it's for delivering fun and happyness to us and that's o.k. for me
But at least we have TLC or Discovery Channel for a tiny bit of truth. And for fun there's always MARKLIN (and Hollywood)

Best Regards
John

I am a bit of an amateur historian and collect other things besides Marklin. On this rather narrow issue - Swasika symbols on Marklin models, I would have two thoughts:

- The swastika is an ancient symbol found in several cultures. It was even used in a variety of ways outside of Germany well into the 1930's. The NSDAP adopted that symbol and permanently changed how the world reacts to it. Nothing can change that. No need for me to elaborate on that, I hope.

- Marklin is a great manufacturer of models and toys and they sell their products all over the world. They have to be sensitive to all cultures and the laws of msot or all nations.

If I was Herr Marklin ( or his heirs ), I would avoid the swastika symbol at all costs.

Modelers, on the other hand, are free to add detail to their purchases. They "weather" your track, or right-of-way buildings, or locos. Why not add that detail yourself ?

Dave