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Offline laalves  
#1 Posted : 17 January 2009 05:30:13(UTC)
laalves


Joined: 10/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,162
Location: Portugal
Interesting. Any features of note? How many functions? It appears the usual F0 + AUX1 and AUX2.
Offline mvd71  
#2 Posted : 17 January 2009 07:17:27(UTC)
mvd71

New Zealand   
Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Auckland,
Hi Lutz,

Could you please let us know the dimensions? And are these manufactured inhouse?
And when did Marklin start fitting them to the loco's.

Thanks,

Mike.
Offline steventrain  
#3 Posted : 17 January 2009 09:29:15(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,606
Location: United Kingdom
Thanks for the information, Lutz.wink
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
Offline Goofy  
#4 Posted : 17 January 2009 10:21:54(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 9,020
Very interesting,Lutz...!
Will that means Marklin can or and does producing better quality of decoder from now and on...?
Next step will been in the sound too...?
For Trix company too...?

Goofy
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline frankie  
#5 Posted : 17 January 2009 10:40:35(UTC)
frankie


Joined: 27/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 692
Location: Italy
Will they have new functions, that work only with the CS2confused
Alessandro
I have a CS1 Reloaded!
Offline mmervine  
#6 Posted : 17 January 2009 14:38:47(UTC)
mmervine

United States   
Joined: 30/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,884
Location: Keene, NH
A big positive that I see from this is that more and more Marklin loks will come with 21 pin sockets. This makes it easy to switch to any decoder or replace in them in the event of failure.
Märklin C-track, Marklin Digital & ECoS, multi-era French & Swiss
http://www.ete-ene.org/m...mervines-layout-gallery/
Offline perz  
#7 Posted : 17 January 2009 15:16:36(UTC)
perz

Sweden   
Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC)
Posts: 2,578
Location: Sweden
It would be interesting to get a review of this decoder.
Things that I would like to know:

General regulation smoothness.

14 or 27 speed steps in MM mode ? And if it is 27, is it the Märklin or the ESU way of doing it ?

80 or 256 addresses in MM mode ?

Alzheimer problems and similar?

Behaviour when power is cut and re-applied, e.g. at an old style signal ? Is there a different behaviour between a short and a long power break, like in the 6090x ?

Default speed curve, linear or non-linear ?

Voltage dependency of the speed ?

Behavior of the acceleration/brake delay: Is it more of a "ramp" as in 6090x, or is it more of a "delay" like in the ESU decoders ?

Is speed regulation applied in analog mode or not ?

Does the max speed setting affect analog mode too or only digital ?

Is acceleration delay applied in analog mode or not ?

And of course I would like to know if the blue transformers will burn it or not, but I don't expect that anyone will test that.
Offline 60904  
#8 Posted : 17 January 2009 16:35:00(UTC)
60904

Germany   
Joined: 27/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 315
Another waste of money. Why develop a new decoder when you can get it relativly cheap and good from ESU?
37940 should have one installed.
Greetings
Martin
Offline RayF  
#9 Posted : 17 January 2009 17:10:03(UTC)
RayF

Gibraltar   
Joined: 14/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 15,840
Location: Gibraltar, Europe
Marklin seems to have ended it's relationship with ESU. It needed to break away and replace its digital products with non-ESU ones.
Ray
Mostly Marklin.Selection of different eras and European railways
Small C track layout, control by MS2, 100+ trains but run 4-5 at a time.
Offline Goofy  
#10 Posted : 17 January 2009 17:25:23(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 9,020
Indeed...!

Goofy
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline supermoee  
#11 Posted : 17 January 2009 20:00:31(UTC)
supermoee

Switzerland   
Joined: 31/05/2007(UTC)
Posts: 534
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by 60904
<br />Another waste of money. Why develop a new decoder when you can get it relativly cheap and good from ESU?
37940 should have one installed.


Because maybe Märklin will go his own way developing new features for mfx, which ESU can't? This is called product advantage.
Probably the first generation of mfx are copyrighted by ESU. Märklin broke up with ESU and the only way is to develop something new.

These decoders are called Märklin internally M4. For the history:

M1: first decoders 6080, 6090
M2: 2nd decoder generartion with F1-F4
M3: mfx decoders made by ESU
M4: new mfx generation

Let's see which new features these decoders will have (and the ESU decoder not)

rgds

Stephan
Offline john black  
#12 Posted : 17 January 2009 22:10:26(UTC)
john black

United States   
Joined: 22/04/2004(UTC)
Posts: 12,139
Location: New York, NY
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Goofy
<br />that means M can or and does producing better quality of decoder from now and on ... ?

It were about time. But I wouldn't bet my money on this biggrin
I hope no one visits a poor Southener's layout in Brooklyn. Intruders beware of Gators.
AT&SF, D&RGW, T&P, SP, WP, UP, BN, NYC, ARR, epI-III - analog & digital Marklin Classics only.
CU#6021 FX-MOTOROLA DIGITAL SYSTEM. Fast as lightning and no trouble. What else ...
Outlaw Member of BIG JUHAN's OUTSIDER CLUB. With the most members, worldwide

Online DasBert33  
#13 Posted : 17 January 2009 22:30:07(UTC)
DasBert33

Belgium   
Joined: 21/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,245
Actually I hope they (= the new decoders) fail and DCC will become the new standard for Marklin. I know this is far fetched but one can hope.

Edit: I'm also interested in the questions raised by Perz. With the 'old' lokpilot we kind of knew what we had. These decoders are somewhat 'black boxes'.

Bert
Offline perz  
#14 Posted : 17 January 2009 22:58:56(UTC)
perz

Sweden   
Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC)
Posts: 2,578
Location: Sweden
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Hemmerich
<br />[
It can be found already in newly delivered models like the SJT44 or the DB E41, etc.

OK, I have a T44 on the way from ETS. Shipped a few days ago so it will arrive next week. I hope I will have time to test it thoroughly when I get it.
Offline steventrain  
#15 Posted : 17 January 2009 23:07:42(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,606
Location: United Kingdom
Lutz,

Is the new items 2009 locomotives havce a new decoder?
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
Offline Nigel Packer  
#16 Posted : 18 January 2009 21:00:18(UTC)
Nigel Packer

United Kingdom   
Joined: 11/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 683
Location: Cheshire, UK
Now can we hope for an mfx function decoder to be produced? This is needed for the 41928 Rheingold coaches set, for example - the instructions for this show Märklin colour conventions for the wiring of a decoder, but I think there's no decoder currently in production (by Märklin or anyone else) that conforms to these.

Any inside information about this, Lutz?

Best wishes,

Nigel
Märklin collector since age 5.
H0 Collection from 1935 to today.
Offline steventrain  
#17 Posted : 18 January 2009 23:16:11(UTC)
steventrain

United Kingdom   
Joined: 21/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 31,606
Location: United Kingdom
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Nigel Packer
<br />Now can we hope for an mfx function decoder to be produced? This is needed for the 41928 Rheingold coaches set, for example - the instructions for this show Märklin colour conventions for the wiring of a decoder, but I think there's no decoder currently in production (by Märklin or anyone else) that conforms to these.

Any inside information about this, Lutz?

Best wishes,

Nigel


Have you read the other topic? As lutz posted it.

https://www.marklin-user...ult.aspx?g=posts&t=11354
Large Marklinist 3- Rails Layout with CS2/MS2/Boosters/C-track/favorites Electric class E03/BR103, E18/E118, E94, Crocodiles/Steam BR01, BR03, BR05, BR23, BR44, BR50, Big Boy.
Offline mvd71  
#18 Posted : 19 January 2009 11:16:42(UTC)
mvd71

New Zealand   
Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,729
Location: Auckland,
Thanks Lutz,

I appreciate the information.Smile

Do you have any idea if they will produce a more basic version similar to the decoder in the 60760 kit?

Cheers....

Mike.
Offline Nigel Packer  
#19 Posted : 19 January 2009 12:00:53(UTC)
Nigel Packer

United Kingdom   
Joined: 11/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 683
Location: Cheshire, UK
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Hemmerich
<br />
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Nigel Packer
This is needed for the 41928 Rheingold coaches set, for example.
Even "outside" information, Nigel - just take a look at the ESU #52621; that will do the job too. wink.


Yes, thanks, but I'd still like an mfx one!

Best wishes,

Nigel
Märklin collector since age 5.
H0 Collection from 1935 to today.
Offline perz  
#20 Posted : 21 January 2009 23:53:32(UTC)
perz

Sweden   
Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC)
Posts: 2,578
Location: Sweden
I have got my T44. I have only started the tests, but I can already say:

No. This is not an improvement. Regulation is not as good as on previous models. And it has the old work-around for the Alzheimer problem, with the side effect that the lok starts very abruptly if the power is turned off and then on again (e.g. at an old style signal). It also does not respond to attempts to program CV 73, so I can't set it to "Alzheimer mode" to see if it really suffers from that or not.
I have also had the speed bar blinking (indicating it does not get mfx feedback), even on my small test track. Haven't ever seen that on any of my other mfx loks except when I deliberatly worsen the conditions a lot for testing purposes.

It looks as it has a more linear default speed curve, 27 speed steps the old Märklin way in MM mode and more a "slope" than a "delay" when changing speed. More back to the 6090x way of working. It requires much more tests before I have really verified these things. So far it is just based on the "feeling" when driving it. Those things I regard as improvements, but it can not help up the bad regulation and the not fully fixed handling of power off/on situations.

This is completely the opposite development compared to my 37900, which was at Märklin for an upgrade, and came back with a perfectly smooth regulation, a perfectly correct handling of both short and long power breaks, a heavily non-linear speed curve, only 14 speed steps in MM mode, and more "delay" than "slope" when changing speed.

Why can't they make everything right in one and the same lok ?

Note: I have used a Mobile Station and a 6021 to test with so far.

Another note: The lok is still not bad, in absolute terms.
Offline perz  
#21 Posted : 22 January 2009 00:38:02(UTC)
perz

Sweden   
Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC)
Posts: 2,578
Location: Sweden
Another different behaviour is when programming the MM address or CV values of the lok with the Mobile Station.

With the previous mfx decoders, you could do as follows:

1. Manually register a V100 from the 29750 set.
2. Change the addrss of that to the MM address of the lok to program.
3. Press "stop" to turn off track power.
4. Delete the lok to program from the MS lok list.
5. Do all the steps of programming the desired parameter.
6. Press "stop" to turn on track power.

With the T44 this is not sufficient. You have to lift off the lok from the track, and actually run it with an MM only controller (e.g 6021) and then place it back on the MS track (somewhere between step 3 and 6 above).

You can also note that there is approximately a 1 s delay before it runs with the 6021, if it was run with the MS last time it got power. This delay is not there on the old decoders.

I managed to program CV73 this way, but it had no effect.
Offline perz  
#22 Posted : 22 January 2009 01:19:35(UTC)
perz

Sweden   
Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC)
Posts: 2,578
Location: Sweden
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Hemmerich
<br />Per,

I wonder what pg. 19 of your instruction booklet says about Register 73. wink


Nothing, of course. Would you expect anything else ? No instruction booklet I have ever seen from Märklin has ever mentioned CV73. Märklin have mentioned it in their FAQ though, but of course not with reference to this specific model. You know this as well as I do.

Anyway. Test results are rather discouraging. Bad regulation (relatively seen), and non-fixing one of the most annoying problems they have, even removing the option to choose between the two previously available flavours of that problem.

If it is going to stay this way, the ESU mfx decoders is clearly a better alternative, even if they aren't perfect in all respects either.

You can test for yourself if you have one of these models.


Offline perz  
#23 Posted : 22 January 2009 01:29:19(UTC)
perz

Sweden   
Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC)
Posts: 2,578
Location: Sweden
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Hemmerich
<br />Per,

I wonder what pg. 19 of your instruction booklet says about Register 73. wink


Lutz, could we please discuss facts, and avoid funny insinuations ?

I am not biased before I am testing someting. If I am biased after, it is because of my findings, not because of irrelevant loyalties or aversions. I know that you are technically skilled, and completely competent to find out exactly the same things yourself. If you want to, that is.
Offline perz  
#24 Posted : 22 January 2009 09:24:50(UTC)
perz

Sweden   
Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC)
Posts: 2,578
Location: Sweden
I am a bit confused about the behaviour of the T44.

It has a Soft Drive Sinus motor, and according to what other people have said in this forum, the motor regulation for the motor is not in the controller but on a separate driver board. Yet, this lok does not have at all as good regulation as the other SDS (or upgraded New C-sine) models I have seen. In some respects it is even worse (or to be more correct "less good") than the 6090x.

What differs between this one and previous SDS models should be the decoder I think, not the SDS driver circuit. But I may be wrong there, I am not an expert in distinguishing between different decoder or driver circuit types.



And to Lutz:

I am not "complaining" about the missing CV73. I am just telling the facts, it is not there. However, I am complaining about that they haven't fixed the problem that made CV73 a meaningful feature.
Offline Goofy  
#25 Posted : 22 January 2009 10:20:22(UTC)
Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 9,020
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by perz




And to Lutz:

I am not "complaining" about the missing CV73. I am just telling the facts, it is not there. However, I am complaining about that they haven't fixed the problem that made CV73 a meaningful feature.


What about Trix T44...?
If there is not CV73,then in case it´s only for factory by using and handle with it.
Because by of warranty at SDS motor perhaps...?

Goofy
H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
Offline nevw  
#26 Posted : 22 January 2009 10:41:36(UTC)
nevw

Australia   
Joined: 27/08/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,071
Location: Murrumba Downs QLD
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by perz
<br />
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Hemmerich
<br />Per,

I wonder what pg. 19 of your instruction booklet says about Register 73. wink


Lutz, could we please discuss facts, and avoid funny insinuations ?

I am not biased before I am testing someting. If I am biased after, it is because of my findings, not because of irrelevant loyalties or aversions. I know that you are technically skilled, and completely competent to find out exactly the same things yourself. If you want to, that is.

Perz,
I am a bit confused here. Has a Post been deleted where you are accused of being Biased????confusedconfusedconfusedconfused

Nev
NOt wearing the Pink Pinny, which is hard to see and now I have a white Pinny which also is hard to see against MY pure white Skin Still have 2 new shiny tin Hips that is badly in Need of Repair matching rusting tin shoulders
and a hose pipe on the aorta
Junior member of the Banana Club, a reformist and an old Goat with a Bad memory, loafing around
Online DasBert33  
#27 Posted : 22 January 2009 13:51:58(UTC)
DasBert33

Belgium   
Joined: 21/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,245
There is a report on the ecos forum that the loco takes off on its own after being 3 to 8 minutes idle on an ecos controlled track. This could be bad news for people with multiprotocol control units.

Perz, do you have any experience with this?

Bert
Offline laalves  
#28 Posted : 22 January 2009 14:08:35(UTC)
laalves


Joined: 10/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,162
Location: Portugal
[Relatively offtopic] I have just ordered a couple of Zimo MX64 decoders to try out, now that CS2 is also DCC. They even provide special decoders for Märklin's Softdrives, even if there are special precautions to take when using those decoders with Softdrive driver boards.[end offtopic]
Offline Davy  
#29 Posted : 22 January 2009 16:24:17(UTC)
Davy


Joined: 29/08/2003(UTC)
Posts: 1,915
Location: Netherlands
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by DasBert33
<br />There is a report on the ecos forum that the loco takes off on its own after being 3 to 8 minutes idle on an ecos controlled track. This could be bad news for people with multiprotocol control units.

Perz, do you have any experience with this?

Bert


There is no problem if you disable analog driving.


M-track with a CS2.
Offline laalves  
#30 Posted : 22 January 2009 18:04:41(UTC)
laalves


Joined: 10/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 2,162
Location: Portugal
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Hemmerich
<br />
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by laalves
<br />[Relatively offtopic] I have just ordered a couple of Zimo MX64 decoders to try out, now that CS2 is also DCC. They even provide special decoders for Märklin's Softdrives, even if there are special precautions to take when using those decoders with Softdrive driver boards.[end offtopic]

Trouble with this is - Zimo needs to specify for each and every pcb (and as we know there are even different ones for one model) where the SMD resistor to be replaced/added is located. Unless this is known, any conversion is on risk or to be discouraged (at least for folk that are not familiar with those boundary conditions). Same actually applies to the models under discussion here.


I actually bought these decoders for my glockenanker conversions. As to driving SDS with any other decoder other factoy spec ones (not only Zimo but ALL decoders), you just need to locate the protection resistors and check if they are actually shunts or resistors and replace them with resistors in case of them being shunts.

If one doesn't have SMD desoldering/soldering skills, just add common resistors in parallel to the shunts, via thin wires.
Offline perz  
#31 Posted : 22 January 2009 21:56:18(UTC)
perz

Sweden   
Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC)
Posts: 2,578
Location: Sweden
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by nevw
<br />
I am a bit confused here. Has a Post been deleted where you are accused of being Biased????confusedconfusedconfusedconfused

Nev


No. But since I know there are a number of pre-biased members in this forum, I think I need to point out that I am not pre-biased. Better say it beforehand.

Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Hemmerich
<br />
PS: About own testing - you bet. For example for the E41 I cannot confirm the bad driving behavior you mention.


Thank you, this adds information. Most of us only have one item of a certain class or kind. You can test it and find it good or bad, but if you only got one, you can never tell if the result is general for the model.

Could be that my T44 is defect in some way. Still it does not behave totally crazy. However, the speed varies somewhat up and down at low speed. Not in a jerky manner and not in a repetitive pattern either. The regulation also has a tendency to "overshoot", i.e. when you set a new higher speed, the speed goes up a little bit over the final value and then down again.

I think I will write to Märklin and ask them if this is really the expected behaviour. But before I do that I want to complete all testing.
Offline perz  
#32 Posted : 22 January 2009 21:59:39(UTC)
perz

Sweden   
Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC)
Posts: 2,578
Location: Sweden
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by DasBert33
<br />There is a report on the ecos forum that the loco takes off on its own after being 3 to 8 minutes idle on an ecos controlled track. This could be bad news for people with multiprotocol control units.

Perz, do you have any experience with this?

Bert


No, I don't have an ecos, and I haven't seen this problem. I haven't done any testing to verify non-existance of the problem either.
Offline perz  
#33 Posted : 23 January 2009 01:15:58(UTC)
perz

Sweden   
Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC)
Posts: 2,578
Location: Sweden
I have been running the T44 a bit more, and it seems like running it in improves it. The speed variations that I saw yesterday are much less accentuated now.

An explanation could be dried oil, oxide etc. on the axles causing somewhat bad contact. This could wear off when you run the lok for a while. Just a theory, but supported by the fact that the speed bar is no longer blinking when I run the lok, which also indicates better contact today than yesterday.

The speed regulation is quite OK now after running it in, but not as good as e.g. the 39180 or my upgraded 37900. The speed is still a little bit unstable and the tendency to over/undeshoot the regulation is there. You can "mask" the over/undershoot by selecting a longer acceleration/break delay. It is mainly observed when acceleration/break delay is turned off through F4, and only in the middle speed range. Wonder if this over/undershoot tendency is general or if it is just mine that behaves that way ?
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