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It's all over....DB89 went up in smoke..literally
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biedmatt
#51
Posted :
01 July 2014 00:22:05(UTC)
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Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Originally Posted by: RayF
Originally Posted by: biedmatt
Well, the DB 89 is just two screws that hold a cover over the axles and intermediate gears. Remove them and the whole thing falls out the bottom. Far less that the tire on a railbus. But anyway, US law allows you to service and maintain an item even as complex as your car. So yes, over here you could use that Haynes manual and do it yourself. The manufacturer can not restrict who you have service and maintain your car. They tried and lost in court. It falls under "restraint of trade". So, to deny warranty the manufacturer has to prove the damage was consequential to work you performed on it. That clearly is not the case here and what I have said all along. Just because you took it apart, Marklin does not have the right to deny warranty. Simple US, and most likely most all other nation's, law.
No, not really. Most car manufacturers insist on a service manual which has been filled in and stamped by an official dealer. If you don't service the car at the recommended intervals by an approved official dealer the guarantee will not be honoured.
If this is different in the USA then it must be a special case.
Partly right Ray. Over here, you better have your receipts for the oil and parts purchased to maintain it and they better not be dated the same day. That is how you prove you serviced and maintained it per manufacturer's recommendations. No one here in the US, not even my Acura dealer stamps the book in my glove box. I, by the way, keep all receipts for the service in a manila envelope.
If you have a lazy dealer who does not stamp the book for a scheduled service, then your warranty is void? Better keep those receipts.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
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H0
#52
Posted :
01 July 2014 00:43:14(UTC)
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Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,271
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: biedmatt
Just because you took it apart, Marklin does not have the right to deny warranty.
You have to sue them in Germany based on German law - and most likely you will lose.
Buy from a German professional seller and you will get two years warranty from the dealer (including used items, but for used items warranty can be reduced to one year). Legally required. Normal maintenance work does not void this warranty. Attempted repairs that do not cause damages do not void this warranty.
Warranty only covers faults that were present when the item was bought.
Märklin's factory warranty is not legally required, so they are free to include or exclude what they want.
So IMHO (IANAL) Graham's maintenance tasks have not impaired his warranty claims against the German dealer.
I don't think Märklin would refuse factory warranty in this case, but IMHO they could. So David's warning about the factory warranty is correct, but you also have warranty claims against the dealer.
Regards
Tom
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biedmatt
#53
Posted :
01 July 2014 00:49:14(UTC)
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Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Over here, it is the manufacturer that warrants the product. Honda North America, not Columbia Acura warrants my car.
So if your dealer goes belly up, you loose your warranty since the dealer, not the manufacturer supplies the warranty? If your car breaks down on a cross country trip and you're days from the selling dealer, you have no warranty and have to pay out of pocket for the repairs at that other dealer? Pretty screwed up.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
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tulit
#54
Posted :
01 July 2014 01:13:43(UTC)
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Joined: 20/05/2012(UTC)
Posts: 400
Originally Posted by: grahame
Originally Posted by: tulit
....you should never mess around with it....
If this is all you have to say please don't post replies on my thread. Thank you.
I mean nothing negative, but maybe I don't understand where you are coming from with blaming Markin/German engineering/etc?
As far as I understood, it was fine at first. Then you messed around with it (i.e. did a maintenance job). And from that point on it ran hot until now where it finally burned up? I'm not sure how/why they are in any way responsible.
From your post May 6th
https://www.marklin-user...very-hot.aspx#post456144
grahame wrote:
After a recent maintenance job on my DB89 I checked my loco yesterday and found. what I thought, was too much oil on the gears. So I mopped it all up with a tiny tissue pad, moistened in very volatile degreasing solvent and got everything nice and clean. When I put it back together I found it ran MUCH hotter than it did before. Used to be rather warm but now it's very hot. I immediately stopped running. I have lubricated the top motor bearing very recently too. Any thoughts? I think I cleaned up a bit too well. I plan to carefully reapply fresh oil. I plan to also clean the brushes and commutator again, and wheel contacts. This is the first time I have seen it get this hot.
Still trying to get used to this tiny thing...
Anyways, all the best. I hope they can get it up and running for you.
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Iamnotthecrazyone
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biedmatt
#55
Posted :
01 July 2014 02:31:09(UTC)
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Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
What I hope we can agree is the final word.
So, what is null and void:
1. Wear and tear due to normal use.
2. The installation of electronics not approved by Marklin
3. Improper use, ie: do not apply 120VAC to the motor or try to operate it under water
4. Not following the instructions, so oil it properly and only push "F0" to turn the headlamps on
5. Installing parts that were causal to the failure of a part made by Marklin or modifying parts that results in a failure.
Those are the only items listed making a warranty null and void.
Nowhere does it say you can't take it apart. As the instructions show how to remove the cover, dig deep into some to replace a tire, among other things, I do not see how they could list disassembly as a reason to make the warranty null and void. If they tried, where would you draw the line? Special disassembly instructions for each item manufactured, with those instructions ending at the manufacturer's approved limit? Number 5 does basically say though that if you messed it up, then it is your fault. That does not seem to be the question in this case. As I understand, it started to run hot, Grahame disassembled it to see if something in the gears was binding and causing it to run hot. No one has suggested he damaged a part, or assembled it improperly, valid reasons to void warranty, just that his warranty is void because he took it apart to try and see why it was running hot. Not a valid reason to void warranty. Both under US law, plus the fact that disassembly is not listed in Marklin's warranty as a reason to void warranty. That is what I have been saying until I too am blue in the face.
So someone, somewhere is going to fix it. Tom states German law requires that warranty will be provided by the selling dealer. But in the document above, I am left with the impression Marklin will fix it. They even conveniently provide their repair address.
Edit: Nope, check that last thought, the second sentence states this is a manufacturer's warranty for 24 months from date of purchase. So it does look like Marklin's responsibility to fix it. I do not see how they could not once they print and provide a document stating this is a manufacturer's warranty. I assume your word, particulary when in print, (in perhaps six different languages on the document) does stand up in German court.
And all of this David, is why I state "damaged" by Grahame was an important part of my argument. "Modification", the only term you left from my post, is a reason to void the warranty. I am not suggesting mallace, just that my argument was weakened without the word damaged.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
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Bigdaddynz
#56
Posted :
01 July 2014 03:30:06(UTC)
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Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,669
Location: New Zealand
Marklin probably don't include dis-assembly in their warranty conditions because they probably never thought that any one would ever do that. On the other hand they might argue that dis-assembly is included in
"No warranty or damage claims shall be accepted in those cases where parts neither manufactured nor approved by Märklin have been installed in Märklin products or where Märklin products have been converted in such a way that the non-Märklin parts or the conversion were causal to the defects and /or damage arising. The burden of presenting evidence and the burden of proof thereof, that the installation of non-Märklin parts or the conversion in or of Märklin products was not causal to the defects and / or damage arising, is borne by the person and / or company responsible for the installation and / or conversion, or by the customer."
I'm sure a lawyer would have a field day arguing what it all means, and what you can and can't do. Maybe Stefan Unholz has an opinion?
As for myself, I prefer not to play around with it in case I make it worse.
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biedmatt
#57
Posted :
01 July 2014 03:59:43(UTC)
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Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
I read the fifth point to mean if you install unauthorized parts, or modify parts, then you make a claim, you must be able to demonstrate the parts added or modified did not damage the unit and the parts upon which you are making a claim. You are claiming they failed due to improper manufacture or a manufacturing defect and not from the parts added or modified.
The automotive equivalent would be a high flow airfilter in a car causing it to run lean, which causes it to run hotter, possibly damaging something from excessive heat. That could be a failure causal to the modification made and not an improperly manufactured part. All unlikely today since the closed loop system with the oxygen sensor in the exhaust, plus other sensors, will adapt the air fuel mixture.
Oddly, I have a friend who has a Jeep with 48,000 miles. Still under warranty. It has spun a big end bearing on a connecting rod. Not so odd, it is afterall, a Dodge. Jeep is saying the heavy duty bumpers he installed, plus the larger wheels have added to the weight and load on the vehicle and have caused the bearing failure. The accessories and wheels have indeed added to the load, but he is still well below Jeep's listed gross vehicle weight (GVW). This is the manufacturer's stated max weight, full up. The vehicle must be able to operate safely and indefinitely at GVW. So although he has made modifications, those modifications are not causal to the failed bearing. He will win in the end. He just needs to play the game and dance the dance. It will go to arbitration. This I think is similar to what is described in point 5 in Marklin's warranty.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
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Iamnotthecrazyone
#58
Posted :
01 July 2014 12:18:46(UTC)
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Joined: 22/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,044
There is no comparison with the automotive industry since the only thing someone else would touch are the regular compulsory items to serviced at regular intervals. For everything that's a manufacturers warranty to you'll be mad to take it to someone else since you'll be charged for the work and the authorized centre will not charge. That could include a faulty stereo, electric seats, paint developing bubbles, etc.
On other industries it is general practice that if any item has been opened by persons not authorized to do so by the manufacturer the warranty is void. That doesn't mean it will happen, they may not be able to tell, they could be able to tell but in many cases in practice they may not care and still repair it. As a rule of thumb I only open things during the warranty period when I am prepared to risk losing the warranty or if claiming the warranty does not make sense financially. This last point is what I had in mind when I suggested just to buy another. The prices are all over the place but second hand locos in good condition are available from Germany starting for around $50 -$60 Euros inc postage. Postage is very expensive and in this case has to be sent twice then the company may or may not charge. presumably you have to be without the model for some time and that may not even be the end of it. I wouldn't have send it.
The motor does have the power to cause the scratch on the gear, you are assuming that it was done in one turn, it could have happened in one hundred turns, just a little bit at the time. It has also be noted turning the wheel by hand. The force applied by fingers to turn the wheels is probably hundred times bigger than whatever force the motor can put out and fingers may not have the sensitivity required to ascertain whether there is something causing a friction. I seriously doubt that gear left the factory that way. It could still be a lemon, the frame could be distorted and causing the friction. As I've said without having the whole thing in my hand I couldn't tell but I did see the scratch while nothing wrong was being seeing so I am sorry but the loco has not been checked by someone experienced and with the knowledge to discover what's wrong with it and until then there can only be a lot of guessing perhaps educated guessing but that's all it is. Hopefully Marklin will fix it, it is now a matter of waiting to see what they say.
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tulit
#59
Posted :
01 July 2014 12:27:13(UTC)
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Joined: 20/05/2012(UTC)
Posts: 400
Guys, see my post above... (#54)
It sound like something went wrong during some routine maintenance and the locomotive was never right after that. That's clearly covered in the list of "what's not covered under warranty".
Anyways, maybe to make a customer happy Marklin will repair it anyways. I'm sure a new armature costs them on the order of a few cents.
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biedmatt
#60
Posted :
01 July 2014 13:17:54(UTC)
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Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Originally Posted by: tulit
Guys, see my post above...
It sound like something went wrong during some routine maintenance and the locomotive was never right after that. That's clearly covered in the list of "what's not covered under warranty".
Anyways, maybe to make a customer happy Marklin will repair it anyways. I'm sure a new armature costs them on the order of a few cents.
I saw your post. I agree, if he messed it up, it is not a warranty claim. My understanding is it got hot, so he beqan to investigate why. It is brand new, so besides oil, which does not require disassembly, I do not see why he would take it apart unless something was wrong. Perhaps Grahame can clarify this for us.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
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biedmatt
#61
Posted :
01 July 2014 13:27:05(UTC)
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Joined: 09/04/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,343
Location: Southwest Ohio
Be that as it may Iamnotthecrazyone, Marklin does not say you can not take it apart in their warranty. This is and has always been, my contention. Those manufacturer's who do not want you to take it apart state disassembly by unauthorized person will void the warranty.
Matt
Era 3
DB lokos, coaches and freight cars from across Europe
But I do have the obligatory (six) SBB Krocs
ECoS 50200, all FX and MFX decoders replaced with ESU V4s, operated in DCC-RailCom+ with ABC brake control.
With the exception of the passenger wagens with Marklin current conducting couplers, all close couplers have been replaced with Roco 40397.
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tulit
#62
Posted :
01 July 2014 13:28:05(UTC)
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Joined: 20/05/2012(UTC)
Posts: 400
Originally Posted by: biedmatt
Originally Posted by: tulit
Guys, see my post above...
It sound like something went wrong during some routine maintenance and the locomotive was never right after that. That's clearly covered in the list of "what's not covered under warranty".
Anyways, maybe to make a customer happy Marklin will repair it anyways. I'm sure a new armature costs them on the order of a few cents.
I saw your post. I agree, if he messed it up, it is not a warranty claim. My understanding is it got hot, so he beqan to investigate why. It is brand new, so besides oil, which does not require disassembly, I do not see why he would take it apart unless something was wrong. Perhaps Grahame can clarify this for us.
I think it was clear from what he wrote.. It was fine, but he decided it was too oily, so disassembled it and cleaned it. When he had it back together, that's when it started running hot. It doesn't sound like it had this problem from the factory.
But anyways you're right. Let him clarify.
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Z-nerd
#63
Posted :
15 December 2014 13:30:21(UTC)
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Joined: 10/10/2012(UTC)
Posts: 95
Location: Linköping, Sweden
Originally Posted by: tulit
I think it was clear from what he wrote.. It was fine, but he decided it was too oily, so disassembled it and cleaned it. When he had it back together, that's when it started running hot. It doesn't sound like it had this problem from the factory.
But anyways you're right. Let him clarify.
I seriously think that the BR89 aka the 8800 is a locomotive to small to be released as a z-scale model. It's too light, has too small wheels and there is not enough space to fit an engine and a reliable transmission into such a small space. I have had three z-scale BR89's both with 3 & 5 pole engines, all of them with very unreliable running characteristics. When they are new they work well, but as soon as you oil them and they start to pick up dirt they will not run slowly and they stop in the turnouts.
I'm not going to buy anymore small 3 axle z-scale locos like the 8800 and 8864.
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