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Offline French_Fabrice  
#1 Posted : 16 May 2012 00:06:37(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,175
Location: Lyon, France
!!! WARNING !!!
What is described in post #1 runs well with my TT and the decoder 7686. This hardware is 20 years old.
If you wish to replicate this hardware configuration and use a current detection device like a Viessmann 5233 on a recent TT hardware & 7687 decoder, be warned that this configuration may not work. (See long story, if interested, starting at post #14).
The solution is to use standard S88 detection instead (see post #69 and later).

Hello Märklin & Rocrail fans !

I want to share with you the successful setup of my Turntable with Rocrail (manual mode and some bits of automatic mode regarding the TT).
The reason I create this topic is that it's sometimes very unclear in the Rocrail docs (for the TT I mean). I've read many times the docs (Rocrail and TT), read the Rocrail forum, and finally found bits by bits a way to setup an acceptable running configuration without too much work. If this post can help those of you interested with Rocrail, that's my pleasure. Please note that I still have to conduct more tests and use different configurations, but for now it's ok. My layout is done exclusively with K tracks, so maybe some of my choices are related to the way electric connections are done with K tracks (mmm... a bit tricky Bored )
This post is not a full "howto" as I don't have enough time. Maybe in the future I'll try to extend it. Also notice this post is not a substitute to the Rocrail wiki. Please read the Rocrail wiki.

Turntable configuration example :

  • 1*7286 Märklin Turntable with its 7686 decoder
  • One entrance track
  • Six consecutive sidings: Starting clockwise up to bottom: track1, track2, track3, track4, track5, track6. The opposite of entrance track is track5. The tracks are programmed in the CS2 following the standard process described in the 7286 booklet. Addressing of the TT start at address 225, i.e. position to track1 will use "229 red", track 2 will use "229 green" and so on...


Blocks configuration :
  • Turntable bridge : blockName = B36
  • Entrance track : blockName = B28
  • track 1 : blockName = B37
  • track 2 : blockName = B38
  • track 3 : blockName = B39
  • track 4 : blockName = B40
  • track 5 : blockName = B41
  • track 6 : blockName = B42


Sensors configuration :
  • Turntable bridge : r50 on Vie5233
  • Entrance track : r49 on Vie5233
  • track1 : r51 on Vie5233
  • track2 : r52 on Vie5233
  • track3 : r53 on Vie5233
  • track4 : r54 on Vie5233
  • track5 : r55 on Vie5233
  • track6 : r56 on Vie5233
  • additional sensor : "bridge position reached" from the feedback plug "green light" of the 7686; connected to "r41" on S88/Vie5217


Summary picture
UserPostedImage


1) Do you need to alter the Turntable ?
Quick answer : not necessary. You can use the original decoder as is, but it will provide only one sensor (occupancy) for the bridge. With one sensor (that's my own configuration), you'll have to adjust speed blocks and timers. It's better to have loco decoders which allows very slow motion. If not, automatic mode will be difficult. If you want more than one sensor for the bridge, then you'll have to alter the tracks on the bridge (I didn't choose this option). Also, you can use light indicators of the 7686 for feedback functions (see above "additional sensor")

2) Do you need additional hardware (I mean more than the 7686 decoder) ?
Answer : Yes. At least a S88 decoder (M 6088/60880/Viessmann 5217) and possibly a current sensor decoder (i.e Viessmann 5233 and optionally Viessmann 5234). In my case, I don't have a lot of room for my layout, so track length is very limited. With a limited track length the easiest way in my opinion is to use a Vie.5233, because you have only to provide the "B" wire for each block.

3) To provide only "B" wire without using insulator, I've modified a bit the original hardware of the spoke tracks: I removed the center contacts of each spoke track, and it's the only alteration I did. Of course this is not mandatory, you can use contact tracks (one left or right hand-side rail cut) or reeds connected to S88 inputs.


UserPostedImage


4) All "0" and "L" sockets of the 7686 decoder are respectively connected to the corresponding wires ("ground" and "light"). The "B" bridge socket of the 7686 decoder is connected to r50 (Vie 5233). The other "B" socket is connected to the "B" of a 60174 booster. Note: you may also connect the "L" socket to the same "B" (booster) (see post https://www.marklin-user...h-Viessmann-device.aspx)

5) Finally, I wanted each loco stored on track1 to track6 to be powered continuously (lights up, smoke generator on). For that, "B" connection is provided thru r51 to r56 via the Vie.5233, but when the bridge is not facing a track the ground ("0") is not provided. That's the reason why I added a ground connector for each sidings.


Rocrail turntable configuration shots:
UserPostedImage
UserPostedImage
UserPostedImage


Rocrail B36 (bridge block) configuration shots:
UserPostedImage
UserPostedImage
note the slow speed (5%)
UserPostedImage
wait 10000 ms before setting speed to 0 when entering B36 from the "+" side
UserPostedImage
wait 8000 ms before setting speed to 0 when entering B36 from the "-" side (asymmetric timers, depends on the loco pickup shoe position)


3 examples of sidings block configuration.
Rocrail B37 (Märklin track 1 / Rocrail track 8) configuration shots:
UserPostedImage
UserPostedImage
UserPostedImage

Rocrail B41 (Märklin track 5 / Rocrail track 0) configuration shots:
UserPostedImage
UserPostedImage
UserPostedImage


Rocrail B42 (Märklin track 6 / Rocrail track 46) configuration shots:
UserPostedImage
UserPostedImage
UserPostedImage

A few routes configuration shots. For example, going from B28 to B42 uses 2 routes : B28-B36 and B36-B42.
UserPostedImage
UserPostedImage
UserPostedImage
UserPostedImage

And the reality:
Entrance track with connection to sensor "r49":
UserPostedImage

The TT with bridge sensor "r50" and "bridge position reached" sensor "r41" :
UserPostedImage

The 6 sidings: M track 1 (upper track) to M track 6 (right track) with connection to sensor "r51" to "r56"
UserPostedImage

Each sidings has a ground connector (see "5)")
UserPostedImage

Final shot:
UserPostedImage


I'll try to provide a recorded video of automatic processing in the future (have to read the manual of my camera before ! Confused )

Please take into account this a very quick "howto". It is far from complete and I still have a lot of work to fine tune things, but I hope you'll find basic information on how to configure a Marklin TT with Rocrail.

All the best BigGrin
Fabrice

Edited by user 14 June 2015 00:35:24(UTC)  | Reason: Addition of warning

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Offline French_Fabrice  
#2 Posted : 18 June 2014 17:18:15(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,175
Location: Lyon, France
Hi,
I've reloaded all the pictures today, as they vanished from the host.
I hope having put them back in the right order.
Cheers
fabrice
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by French_Fabrice
Offline ecastrog  
#3 Posted : 05 May 2015 00:10:40(UTC)
ecastrog

Ecuador   
Joined: 05/06/2014(UTC)
Posts: 44
Location: Quito
Hi Fabrice

I hope you are doing ok!

I stepped into this post from you, because I am having a little trouble setting up my 7286 Marklin turntable to make it work with iTrain

I already managed to program the turntable with the 7687 decoder (kind of tricky but at the end did it!!BigGrin )

Now I have the problem that iTrain needs an occupation feedback for the turntable (which needs to be the actual bridge of the TT), and also an "end state feedback", which I already found out that is the "green light" (by reading your helpful post) of the 7687 decoder.

Reading your post, here is the question: Is it ok to connect the "B" bridge socket for the 7687 to one input of an s88? (I see you use Vie 5233, but I don't have those and it seems they do the opposite of s88??Confused )


I hope I made myself clear of what I need.....

Best regards,
Esteban
Offline ecastrog  
#4 Posted : 05 May 2015 19:17:14(UTC)
ecastrog

Ecuador   
Joined: 05/06/2014(UTC)
Posts: 44
Location: Quito
Originally Posted by: ecastrog Go to Quoted Post
Hi Fabrice

I hope you are doing ok!

I stepped into this post from you, because I am having a little trouble setting up my 7286 Marklin turntable to make it work with iTrain

I already managed to program the turntable with the 7687 decoder (kind of tricky but at the end did it!!BigGrin )

Now I have the problem that iTrain needs an occupation feedback for the turntable (which needs to be the actual bridge of the TT), and also an "end state feedback", which I already found out that is the "green light" (by reading your helpful post) of the 7687 decoder.

Reading your post, here is the question: Is it ok to connect the "B" bridge socket for the 7687 to one input of an s88? (I see you use Vie 5233, but I don't have those and it seems they do the opposite of s88??Confused )


I hope I made myself clear of what I need.....

Best regards,
Esteban



Hi again. Update

I tried last night to connect the B socket of the 7687 decoder, to an s88 input, but unfortunately doesn't work. When I do, the occupancy state is always "ON". It seems I have some kind of problem with the issolation......

BTW I use C track.
Of course I have K-C addaptors for the turntable spokes!

Esteban
Offline French_Fabrice  
#5 Posted : 05 May 2015 19:28:28(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,175
Location: Lyon, France
Hi Esteban,

I'm afraid you can't connect a "B" socket to a S88 input line. S88 are designed to detect ground circuits (0), not polarity (B). If you do that, you will generate a shortcut !!!Crying
That's why I used an occupancy feedback detection on bridge, based on current consumption like Viessmann 5233 or LDT RM-GB-8-N.

If you want to use ground detection on the bridge, then you have :
1) to modify ground connections of the 2 rails of the bridge (unscrew the bridge, inspect the connections at the center and cut some)
2) to modify (cut) all peripheral connections at the ends of each track of the turntable (48 tracks) !!!

My opinion is these modifications are somewhat tricky, and it's much more easy to use a current detection device instead (Very few changes as shown in my post: only cut the spoke tracks). Also, using this current detection device allows you to have occupation feedback on sidings of the turntable.

FYI, I've reused this configuration for my new layout Trossingen II, and it works perfectly.

Cheers
Fabrice

thanks 1 user liked this useful post by French_Fabrice
Offline ecastrog  
#6 Posted : 05 May 2015 19:34:45(UTC)
ecastrog

Ecuador   
Joined: 05/06/2014(UTC)
Posts: 44
Location: Quito
Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice Go to Quoted Post
Hi Esteban,

I'm afraid you can't connect a "B" socket to a S88 input line. S88 are designed to detect ground circuits (0), not polarity (B). If you do that, you will generate a shortcut !!!Crying
That's why I used an occupancy feedback detection on bridge, based on current consumption like Viessmann 5233 or LDT RM-GB-8-N.

If you want to use ground detection on the bridge, then you have :
1) to modify ground connections of the 2 rails of the bridge (unscrew the bridge, inspect the connections at the center and cut some)
2) to modify (cut) all peripheral connections at the ends of each track of the turntable (48 tracks) !!!

My opinion is these modifications are somewhat tricky, and it's much more easy to use a current detection device instead (Very few changes as shown in my post: only cut the spoke tracks). Also, using this current detection device allows you to have occupation feedback on sidings of the turntable.

FYI, I've reused this configuration for my new layout Trossingen II, and it works perfectly.

Cheers
Fabrice




Thank you very much Fabrice.

I will go with your recommendation. I'll buy the Viessmann 5233 and try to get this working. Then I'll let you know the results!! (hopefully good...Blushing )

Regards,
Esteban
Offline Ross  
#7 Posted : 07 May 2015 00:30:23(UTC)
Ross

Australia   
Joined: 25/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 663
Location: Sydney, NSW
Hello Fabrice,

I'm concerned that this statement is false. I monitor the centre rail on many parts of my layout without any problems, see links below.

Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice Go to Quoted Post
Hi Esteban,

I'm afraid you can't connect a "B" socket to a S88 input line. S88 are designed to detect ground circuits (0), not polarity (B). If you do that, you will generate a shortcut !!!Crying
.........................
Cheers
Fabrice



Centre rail contacts

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~.../rms/pdf/s88_contact.pdf

Thanks for the details on the turntable with Rocrail.

For Esteban and others please read the following.

Programming the turntable with TrainController

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~...urntable_programming.pdf

Turntable using analog control

http://members.ozemail.c...table_analog_control.pdf

I hope you find the information useful.
Ross
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Offline French_Fabrice  
#8 Posted : 07 May 2015 08:12:10(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,175
Location: Lyon, France
Hi Ross,

Thank you for the correction about my wrong statement.

But I don't understand why a "B" line can generate some detection on a S88.
May I ask you to explain it ?

Cheers
Fabrice
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Offline Ross  
#9 Posted : 07 May 2015 09:19:29(UTC)
Ross

Australia   
Joined: 25/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 663
Location: Sydney, NSW
Hello Fabrice,

The "B" connection is more negative than ground (masse).

On Page 87 of the 0303 manual it states the following

The track detection module is able to evaluate all impulses and continuous contacts which have a ground component
(the potential of the outer rails or the 'T' socket on the s88 module). Positive voltage is not evaluated by the track detection module.

On page 181 of the 0308 manual you will find the following specs.
Input voltage +/- 40 volts
Voltage threshold +2.5 volts
Voltages <2.5 volts: contact activated
Voltages >2.5 volts: contact not activated.
Sensitivity: input resistance of approx 50k ohms to ground.

It's is safe to use with the s88. I have been doing it this way for more years than I have fingers and toes. BigGrin
Ross
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Offline French_Fabrice  
#10 Posted : 07 May 2015 22:26:43(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,175
Location: Lyon, France
Hi Ross,

Thanks for your reply!

I've reread my 0304 manual (French version of 0303) and page 90 it is stated (roughly translated) that "...the center rail has always a negative part the S88 is able to detect...". So, I've learned today an important thing about feedback detection !

Do you know a documentation or a set of links that would explain in a deeper manner all the waveform signals available at the CS2 output ?

Cheers
Fabrice
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by French_Fabrice
Offline French_Fabrice  
#11 Posted : 07 May 2015 22:53:48(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,175
Location: Lyon, France
Originally Posted by: ecastrog Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice Go to Quoted Post
Hi Esteban,

I'm afraid you can't connect a "B" socket to a S88 input line. S88 are designed to detect ground circuits (0), not polarity (B). If you do that, you will generate a shortcut !!!Crying
That's why I used an occupancy feedback detection on bridge, based on current consumption like Viessmann 5233 or LDT RM-GB-8-N.

If you want to use ground detection on the bridge, then you have :
1) to modify ground connections of the 2 rails of the bridge (unscrew the bridge, inspect the connections at the center and cut some)
2) to modify (cut) all peripheral connections at the ends of each track of the turntable (48 tracks) !!!

My opinion is these modifications are somewhat tricky, and it's much more easy to use a current detection device instead (Very few changes as shown in my post: only cut the spoke tracks). Also, using this current detection device allows you to have occupation feedback on sidings of the turntable.

FYI, I've reused this configuration for my new layout Trossingen II, and it works perfectly.

Cheers
Fabrice




Thank you very much Fabrice.

I will go with your recommendation. I'll buy the Viessmann 5233 and try to get this working. Then I'll let you know the results!! (hopefully good...Blushing )

Regards,
Esteban


Esteban,

If you see the reply from Ross, then I was clearly wrong when stating that S88 wouldn't be able to be used with a "B" socket.
But all I describe in the first post is still true, and using a current consumption detector like Vie 5233 runs correctly.

To be honest, I don't remind very well how I came to such a conclusion (It was 3 years ago). I remind I did some (but not many) tests, and finally I reached my goal quickly using a 5233 than other things (I was certainly willing to implement such a device!). As my turntable is now stuck and decorated in the layout, I have no easy way to experiment other solutions.

Ross proposal is another alternative. You now have the choice.

All the best
Fabrice
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by French_Fabrice
Offline Ross  
#12 Posted : 08 May 2015 01:25:55(UTC)
Ross

Australia   
Joined: 25/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 663
Location: Sydney, NSW
Hello Fabrice,

Life's all about learning. I'm glad I was able to help.

I don't have information on the CS2 but getting waveform signal information will be difficult.

Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice Go to Quoted Post
Hi Ross,

Thanks for your reply!

I've reread my 0304 manual (French version of 0303) and page 90 it is stated (roughly translated) that "...the center rail has always a negative part the S88 is able to detect...". So, I've learned today an important thing about feedback detection !

Do you know a documentation or a set of links that would explain in a deeper manner all the waveform signals available at the CS2 output ?

Cheers
Fabrice


Ross
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Ross
Offline ecastrog  
#13 Posted : 28 May 2015 22:30:26(UTC)
ecastrog

Ecuador   
Joined: 05/06/2014(UTC)
Posts: 44
Location: Quito
Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: ecastrog Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice Go to Quoted Post
Hi Esteban,

I'm afraid you can't connect a "B" socket to a S88 input line. S88 are designed to detect ground circuits (0), not polarity (B). If you do that, you will generate a shortcut !!!Crying
That's why I used an occupancy feedback detection on bridge, based on current consumption like Viessmann 5233 or LDT RM-GB-8-N.

If you want to use ground detection on the bridge, then you have :
1) to modify ground connections of the 2 rails of the bridge (unscrew the bridge, inspect the connections at the center and cut some)
2) to modify (cut) all peripheral connections at the ends of each track of the turntable (48 tracks) !!!

My opinion is these modifications are somewhat tricky, and it's much more easy to use a current detection device instead (Very few changes as shown in my post: only cut the spoke tracks). Also, using this current detection device allows you to have occupation feedback on sidings of the turntable.

FYI, I've reused this configuration for my new layout Trossingen II, and it works perfectly.

Cheers
Fabrice




Thank you very much Fabrice.

I will go with your recommendation. I'll buy the Viessmann 5233 and try to get this working. Then I'll let you know the results!! (hopefully good...Blushing )

Regards,
Esteban


Esteban,

If you see the reply from Ross, then I was clearly wrong when stating that S88 wouldn't be able to be used with a "B" socket.
But all I describe in the first post is still true, and using a current consumption detector like Vie 5233 runs correctly.

To be honest, I don't remind very well how I came to such a conclusion (It was 3 years ago). I remind I did some (but not many) tests, and finally I reached my goal quickly using a 5233 than other things (I was certainly willing to implement such a device!). As my turntable is now stuck and decorated in the layout, I have no easy way to experiment other solutions.

Ross proposal is another alternative. You now have the choice.

All the best
Fabrice



Hi Fabrice / Ross

Interesting all of these concepts!

I didn't replied earlier to you because I was in the process of buying the VI5233 (I live in Ecuador and every little thing I need I have to order to a retailer in the US and then get it home....so the process takes long!!Crying )

I got my 5233 yesterday, and so I was now looking into the forum again, and saw all the new posts from Ross and Fabrice!

Anyway I got my 5233 now, so I think I am going to use this option now.

I will work on it during the weekend and let you know the results!!

Thank you very much for your kind help

Regards,
Esteban
Offline ecastrog  
#14 Posted : 01 June 2015 16:59:13(UTC)
ecastrog

Ecuador   
Joined: 05/06/2014(UTC)
Posts: 44
Location: Quito
Originally Posted by: ecastrog Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: ecastrog Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice Go to Quoted Post
Hi Esteban,

I'm afraid you can't connect a "B" socket to a S88 input line. S88 are designed to detect ground circuits (0), not polarity (B). If you do that, you will generate a shortcut !!!Crying
That's why I used an occupancy feedback detection on bridge, based on current consumption like Viessmann 5233 or LDT RM-GB-8-N.

If you want to use ground detection on the bridge, then you have :
1) to modify ground connections of the 2 rails of the bridge (unscrew the bridge, inspect the connections at the center and cut some)
2) to modify (cut) all peripheral connections at the ends of each track of the turntable (48 tracks) !!!

My opinion is these modifications are somewhat tricky, and it's much more easy to use a current detection device instead (Very few changes as shown in my post: only cut the spoke tracks). Also, using this current detection device allows you to have occupation feedback on sidings of the turntable.

FYI, I've reused this configuration for my new layout Trossingen II, and it works perfectly.

Cheers
Fabrice




Thank you very much Fabrice.

I will go with your recommendation. I'll buy the Viessmann 5233 and try to get this working. Then I'll let you know the results!! (hopefully good...Blushing )

Regards,
Esteban


Esteban,

If you see the reply from Ross, then I was clearly wrong when stating that S88 wouldn't be able to be used with a "B" socket.
But all I describe in the first post is still true, and using a current consumption detector like Vie 5233 runs correctly.

To be honest, I don't remind very well how I came to such a conclusion (It was 3 years ago). I remind I did some (but not many) tests, and finally I reached my goal quickly using a 5233 than other things (I was certainly willing to implement such a device!). As my turntable is now stuck and decorated in the layout, I have no easy way to experiment other solutions.

Ross proposal is another alternative. You now have the choice.

All the best
Fabrice



Hi Fabrice / Ross

Interesting all of these concepts!

I didn't replied earlier to you because I was in the process of buying the VI5233 (I live in Ecuador and every little thing I need I have to order to a retailer in the US and then get it home....so the process takes long!!Crying )

I got my 5233 yesterday, and so I was now looking into the forum again, and saw all the new posts from Ross and Fabrice!

Anyway I got my 5233 now, so I think I am going to use this option now.

I will work on it during the weekend and let you know the results!!

Thank you very much for your kind help

Regards,
Esteban




Hi Fabrice / Ross

Bad news.......It didn't work at all for me...Confused Crying

I connected the B plug of the 7687 decoder to the VIessmann 5233 No.1 port (actually in my case it would be address 6.1, I have 5 s88's before the 5233)
I connected Bn and Rt from the 5233 to the booster

I have a permanent "occupied" reading (with or without a loco in the bridge) coming from the 5233....

Also I tried the modification you suggest of the spoke tracks. As far as having power all the time in the siding it works nice, but I am having trouble with the power in the actual spoke track, the loco will stop because there is no current in the spoke track center "rail".. I don't know if I am missing something

BTW I have more sidings and tracks, but only did the testing in one of them..


Best regards,
Esteban
Offline ilekrib  
#15 Posted : 01 June 2015 17:50:03(UTC)
ilekrib

Norway   
Joined: 04/02/2015(UTC)
Posts: 3
Location: Hordaland, Bergen
Hi
If this is nr. 6, s88. Portnr. 1 on the viessmann 5233, are 81. Use adress 81

Regards
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Offline French_Fabrice  
#16 Posted : 01 June 2015 22:21:54(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,175
Location: Lyon, France
Hi Esteban,

Here is a drawing of an example of how to connect a 5233 to the TT
UserPostedImage

This drawing depicts a situation where current consumption detecting is the goal. This drawing is a partial implementation of what I've done on my current layout "TrossingenII". The only difference are:
  • Use of a LDT RMGB8N instead of a Vie5233, but it works on the same principle
  • Use of a 7686 instead of a 7687
  • 6 sidings exiting from the TT


Back to the drawing:
The drawing has 4 sections where current consumption detecting can occur (Entry track, bridge, track 1 , track 2).
For that, the various sections must have their "B" line insulated from the main "B".
If the track has one side connected to the TT, then the "tongue" of the spoke track must be cut (as explained in my previous posts)

The state "occupied" is shown:
  • for line 1 (feedback contact #81 in your case), when a loco is on the bridge
  • for line 2 (feedback contact #82 in your case), when a loco is on the entry track
  • for line 3 (feedback contact #83 in your case), when a loco is on track 1
  • for line 4 (feedback contact #84 in your case), when a loco is on track 2


Reminder: When the bridge is facing a track, the "0" is propagated to this track. The "B" is no more propagated because the tongue of the spoke track is cut.

In the example, if a loco is occupying Track 2 without the bridge facing it, the "0" connection (ground) allows a loco staying on track 2 to have its lights on (or any device consuming power like a smoke generator or... the loco decoder) , and the "B" power is provided by line "4" of the Vie5233. As a result, the line 4 of the 5233 shows a state "occupied".

Let me know if you need more explanations.

Cheers
Fabrice
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Offline ecastrog  
#17 Posted : 03 June 2015 19:41:05(UTC)
ecastrog

Ecuador   
Joined: 05/06/2014(UTC)
Posts: 44
Location: Quito
Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice Go to Quoted Post
Hi Esteban,

Here is a drawing of an example of how to connect a 5233 to the TT
UserPostedImage

This drawing depicts a situation where current consumption detecting is the goal. This drawing is a partial implementation of what I've done on my current layout "TrossingenII". The only difference are:
  • Use of a LDT RMGB8N instead of a Vie5233, but it works on the same principle
  • Use of a 7686 instead of a 7687
  • 6 sidings exiting from the TT


Back to the drawing:
The drawing has 4 sections where current consumption detecting can occur (Entry track, bridge, track 1 , track 2).
For that, the various sections must have their "B" line insulated from the main "B".
If the track has one side connected to the TT, then the "tongue" of the spoke track must be cut (as explained in my previous posts)

The state "occupied" is shown:
  • for line 1 (feedback contact #81 in your case), when a loco is on the bridge
  • for line 2 (feedback contact #82 in your case), when a loco is on the entry track
  • for line 3 (feedback contact #83 in your case), when a loco is on track 1
  • for line 4 (feedback contact #84 in your case), when a loco is on track 2


Reminder: When the bridge is facing a track, the "0" is propagated to this track. The "B" is no more propagated because the tongue of the spoke track is cut.

In the example, if a loco is occupying Track 2 without the bridge facing it, the "0" connection (ground) allows a loco staying on track 2 to have its lights on (or any device consuming power like a smoke generator or... the loco decoder) , and the "B" power is provided by line "4" of the Vie5233. As a result, the line 4 of the 5233 shows a state "occupied".

Let me know if you need more explanations.

Cheers
Fabrice


Hi Fabrice

First of all let me thank you for your kindness on taking the time to do this drawing, and all of your help!! It is really nice to get in touch with people like you that are willing to help in this way!

Second, the bad news.......Crying It didn't work for me.....Crying Crying

Let me explain:

I connected everything (really cautiosly) like you explain in your drawing. Everything fine there. No questions.
I reworked the spoke tracks, like you explain in your previous posts
For the exercise I tested with the following:

1 entry track
1 side track (track 1) opposite to the entry track.
B and O (of your drawing) are connected to a booster (also checked and connected them directly to the CS2)


I did the issolation of "B" in the entry track. (BTW I use C track, so my entry track is a 24922 C-K addaptor)

Here are the results.

- The bridge and track 1 have always the "occupied" state (with and without Loco)
- The entry track is working perfect.BigGrin
- The TT is no longer working with the CS2 (I mean it doesn't move at all)
- I have the 3 lights connected (yellow, green and red) to the 7687, and they also stopped working (they used to work fine and are good help for the programming of the TT)
- The bridge has power, also track 1 (all the time)
- The loco runs normally

So I'm stuck here.... I don't know what else to try...

Hope you can give me a little more advise!!

Regards,
Esteban

Offline French_Fabrice  
#18 Posted : 03 June 2015 23:16:55(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,175
Location: Lyon, France
Esteban, it's not easy to debug 10000km away, but I'll try my best...

Step 1:

You said entry track works perfectly:
Q1) Do you mean the occupancy detection (with the 5233) runs well on THIS entry track ? If yes, that means the 5233 is running correctly...
Q2) When no loco is on the entry track, the occupancy detection (with the 5233) on THIS entry track should NOT be lit. Is it true ? If yes, then definitely the 5233 is OK.

Step 2:

I hope you have a multimeter, because I'd like to know if there are some connectivity defects.
0) Unplug power outlet from the layout. The layout should not be energized !
1) disconnect ALL wires from 5233 and 7687; also disconnect the flat ribbon from the TT to the 7687. NO wire should be connected to the TT and its tracks
2) then mount ONLY the K-C adapter entry track, the spoke track facing the K-C adapter track on the TT with the tongue cut (let's say it is "left handside"), The TT, and at the opposite side ("right handside"), the spoke track of track 1 with also the tongue cut and a second K-C adapter (or a piece of K-track). The TT bridge should be facing both entry track and track 1.
3) then, take your multimeter, set it on the adequate entry (connectivity test) and
3.1) put one test probe on the "B" of "left side" (24922 entry track #1), put the other test probe on the "B" track1 (24922 track1 #2). The expected result is NO BEEP (no connectivity). If you get a BEEP, then both spoke tracks have a defect (both "B" insulations are defective)
3.2) put one test probe on the "B" of "left side" (24922 entry track #1), put the other test probe on the "B" (the center metal piece) of the bridge. The expected result is NO BEEP (no connectivity). If you get a BEEP, then spoke track of entry track has a defect (the "B" insulation is defective)
3.3) put one test probe on the "B" of "right side" (24922 track1 #2), put the other test probe on the "B" (the center metal piece) of the bridge. The expected result is NO BEEP (no connectivity). If you get a BEEP, then spoke track of track #1 has a defect (the "B" insulation is defective)

Please report results.
Cheers
Fabrice
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Offline ecastrog  
#19 Posted : 04 June 2015 19:50:50(UTC)
ecastrog

Ecuador   
Joined: 05/06/2014(UTC)
Posts: 44
Location: Quito
Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice Go to Quoted Post
Esteban, it's not easy to debug 10000km away, but I'll try my best...

Step 1:

You said entry track works perfectly:
Q1) Do you mean the occupancy detection (with the 5233) runs well on THIS entry track ? If yes, that means the 5233 is running correctly...
Q2) When no loco is on the entry track, the occupancy detection (with the 5233) on THIS entry track should NOT be lit. Is it true ? If yes, then definitely the 5233 is OK.

Step 2:

I hope you have a multimeter, because I'd like to know if there are some connectivity defects.
0) Unplug power outlet from the layout. The layout should not be energized !
1) disconnect ALL wires from 5233 and 7687; also disconnect the flat ribbon from the TT to the 7687. NO wire should be connected to the TT and its tracks
2) then mount ONLY the K-C adapter entry track, the spoke track facing the K-C adapter track on the TT with the tongue cut (let's say it is "left handside"), The TT, and at the opposite side ("right handside"), the spoke track of track 1 with also the tongue cut and a second K-C adapter (or a piece of K-track). The TT bridge should be facing both entry track and track 1.
3) then, take your multimeter, set it on the adequate entry (connectivity test) and
3.1) put one test probe on the "B" of "left side" (24922 entry track #1), put the other test probe on the "B" track1 (24922 track1 #2). The expected result is NO BEEP (no connectivity). If you get a BEEP, then both spoke tracks have a defect (both "B" insulations are defective)
3.2) put one test probe on the "B" of "left side" (24922 entry track #1), put the other test probe on the "B" (the center metal piece) of the bridge. The expected result is NO BEEP (no connectivity). If you get a BEEP, then spoke track of entry track has a defect (the "B" insulation is defective)
3.3) put one test probe on the "B" of "right side" (24922 track1 #2), put the other test probe on the "B" (the center metal piece) of the bridge. The expected result is NO BEEP (no connectivity). If you get a BEEP, then spoke track of track #1 has a defect (the "B" insulation is defective)

Please report results.
Cheers
Fabrice



Hi Fabrice

Thank you again for your kindness

Regarding Q1 and Q2 the answer is YES.

About the testing you request, I didn't have time to do it yesterday. I will tonight, and let you know the results.

Regards,
Esteban
Offline French_Fabrice  
#20 Posted : 04 June 2015 21:47:47(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,175
Location: Lyon, France
Hi Esteban,

Step 1: ThumpUp
We have progressed!

The 5233 runs well, and provide occupancy detection on entry track.
So we can discard major problem with the 5233.

If all tests of Step 2 are successful, then you can go to Step 3.
If not, we'll check it when you provide the results. DO NOT go to step 3 while step 2 is unsuccessful.

The purpose of Step 3 is to provide power ONLY on the bridge thru the 7687, and test the bridge occupancy detection

Step 3:
Assumptions: the entry track is connected to plug "2" of the 5233; The "B" and "0" plugs of the 5233 are wired to the "B" and "0" lines of the CS2 (I'd like to discard the booster first); the flat ribbon from the 5233 is connected to the last S88.
-Plug the flat ribbon from the TT into the 7687 (I don't remember if there is a key to avoid plugging the TT flat ribbon the wrong way ???)
-put a wire between the "B" plug of the 7687 dedicated to the bridge, and plug "1" of the 5233 .
-provide "0" line to the 2 "0" plugs of the 7687 dedicated to the bridge, from the common ground
-DO NOT wire the B & 0 "command" plugs of the 7687
-The entry track ("B" insulated on left side, "B" insulated on right side with the tongue of the spoke track cut) is connected to the TT
-on Track1 side, put only the spoke track without any other track connected to it.
-the bridge is facing entry track on one side, and track 1 (with only the spoke track) on other side
-create on the cs2 a "feedback test" layout (if not already done), with only 8 feedback icons. Assign a different address to each icon (from 81 to 88, if you have already have 5*S88 connected )

Summary: We have the 5233 energized, 5233 line 1 connected to the bridge, 5233 line 2 connected to the entry track, and bridge energized (thru line 1 and common ground).

-Test 3.1: provide power to the layout and devices, without any loco on the entry track NOR on the bridge. Expected result: line 1 AND line 2 are not lit (no occupation on both blocks)
-Test 3.2: hit the stop bar of the CS2 (power off), put a loco on entry track, hit the stop bar again (power on). Expected result: Only line 2 is lit (occupation on entry track)
-Test 3.3: hit the stop bar of the CS2 (power off), move the loco from entry track to the middle of the bridge (the loco must be entirely included in the bridge), hit the stop bar again (power on). Expected result: Only line 1 is lit (occupation on bridge).

Sorry to be so prescriptive, but troubleshooting needs to be very strict.

Cheers
Fabrice
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Offline ecastrog  
#21 Posted : 05 June 2015 02:04:50(UTC)
ecastrog

Ecuador   
Joined: 05/06/2014(UTC)
Posts: 44
Location: Quito
Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice Go to Quoted Post
Hi Esteban,

Step 1: ThumpUp
We have progressed!

The 5233 runs well, and provide occupancy detection on entry track.
So we can discard major problem with the 5233.

If all tests of Step 2 are successful, then you can go to Step 3.
If not, we'll check it when you provide the results. DO NOT go to step 3 while step 2 is unsuccessful.

The purpose of Step 3 is to provide power ONLY on the bridge thru the 7687, and test the bridge occupancy detection

Step 3:
Assumptions: the entry track is connected to plug "2" of the 5233; The "B" and "0" plugs of the 5233 are wired to the "B" and "0" lines of the CS2 (I'd like to discard the booster first); the flat ribbon from the 5233 is connected to the last S88.
-Plug the flat ribbon from the TT into the 7687 (I don't remember if there is a key to avoid plugging the TT flat ribbon the wrong way ???)
-put a wire between the "B" plug of the 7687 dedicated to the bridge, and plug "1" of the 5233 .
-provide "0" line to the 2 "0" plugs of the 7687 dedicated to the bridge, from the common ground
-DO NOT wire the B & 0 "command" plugs of the 7687
-The entry track ("B" insulated on left side, "B" insulated on right side with the tongue of the spoke track cut) is connected to the TT
-on Track1 side, put only the spoke track without any other track connected to it.
-the bridge is facing entry track on one side, and track 1 (with only the spoke track) on other side
-create on the cs2 a "feedback test" layout (if not already done), with only 8 feedback icons. Assign a different address to each icon (from 81 to 88, if you have already have 5*S88 connected )

Summary: We have the 5233 energized, 5233 line 1 connected to the bridge, 5233 line 2 connected to the entry track, and bridge energized (thru line 1 and common ground).

-Test 3.1: provide power to the layout and devices, without any loco on the entry track NOR on the bridge. Expected result: line 1 AND line 2 are not lit (no occupation on both blocks)
-Test 3.2: hit the stop bar of the CS2 (power off), put a loco on entry track, hit the stop bar again (power on). Expected result: Only line 2 is lit (occupation on entry track)
-Test 3.3: hit the stop bar of the CS2 (power off), move the loco from entry track to the middle of the bridge (the loco must be entirely included in the bridge), hit the stop bar again (power on). Expected result: Only line 1 is lit (occupation on bridge).

Sorry to be so prescriptive, but troubleshooting needs to be very strict.

Cheers
Fabrice



Hi Fabrice

Just finished all the tests.

Here the results:

Step 2 results: successful! No beeps at all. It seems the spoke tracks isolation is correct

Step 3 results:

Test 3.1: With NO locos I get an "occupied" signal of Line 1 (bridge)(lit)
Test 3.2: With the Loco on the entry track, I get both lines (1 and 2) occupied (lit)
Test 3.3: With the loco on the bridge, I get Line 1 occupied signal

Summary:

It seems that the isolation and connection to 5233 of entry track is (again) working fine
It looks like the problem is on the brigde: the signal of occupation is always (with or without loco) on


One last doubt: You say to "provide "0" line to the 2 "0" plugs of the 7687 "dedicated to the bridge", from the common ground"... I do not have a special ground in the layout, but the "0" of the CS2 or the "0" of the booster. I did connect them to the "0" of the CS2

Regards,
Esteban
Offline French_Fabrice  
#22 Posted : 05 June 2015 07:48:20(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,175
Location: Lyon, France
Hi Esteban,

Strange...but Step 2: ThumpUp

Step 4:
-Unplug the booster & DO NOT use it (remove the plug "B"&"0" exiting from the booster). All "B" & "0" should now come from the CS2. Check the "B" and "0" of the 5233 to verify it is energized from the CS2.
-Stay in the configuration of Step3
-Remove the 2 wires from the "0" plugs dedicated to the bridge in the 7687. That means the bridge has "B" provided thru line 1 of 5233, and "0" provided by the 2 rails of entry track facing the bridge
-Check the 2 rails of entry track has "0" coming from the CS2 (either directly with a "0" wire or indirectly from other tracks connected)

Repeat all tests of Step 3. The expected results are the same...

Q3: Which booster do you have, 60174 ?
Q4: Which CS do you have (60213,60214,60215) ? also provide firmware revision of CS2 -Setup/Version- (4.33, 5.1, other?)

Cheers
Fabrice

Edited by user 05 June 2015 19:23:36(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline ecastrog  
#23 Posted : 05 June 2015 23:46:40(UTC)
ecastrog

Ecuador   
Joined: 05/06/2014(UTC)
Posts: 44
Location: Quito
Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice Go to Quoted Post
Hi Esteban,

Strange...but Step 2: ThumpUp

Step 4:
-Unplug the booster & DO NOT use it (remove the plug "B"&"0" exiting from the booster). All "B" & "0" should now come from the CS2. Check the "B" and "0" of the 5233 to verify it is energized from the CS2.
-Stay in the configuration of Step3
-Remove the 2 wires from the "0" plugs dedicated to the bridge in the 7687. That means the bridge has "B" provided thru line 1 of 5233, and "0" provided by the 2 rails of entry track facing the bridge
-Check the 2 rails of entry track has "0" coming from the CS2 (either directly with a "0" wire or indirectly from other tracks connected)

Repeat all tests of Step 3. The expected results are the same...

Q3: Which booster do you have, 60174 ?
Q4: Which CS do you have (60213,60214,60215) ? also provide firmware revision of CS2 -Setup/Version- (4.33, 5.1, other?)

Cheers
Fabrice


Hi Fabrice

No good news. Step 4 failed, same results as step 3.....Confused Crying Angry

Regarding your questions:

Q3: yes, it is 60174
Q4: I have 60215 CS2. Hardware version: 5.1 Software version: 3.8.1 (11)

One last thing that may mean something: When I was testing today, I noticed that L1 (address 81) is Lit (bridge), even with no loco. When I press the stop button, repeatedly, this indicator will sometimes stay lit (with the red -stop- light of the CS2 on) and sometimes it will turn of (again with the red -stop- light of the CS2 on)
I would think that it should always behave the same, but it is different. The bad thing is that there is no pattern there. Sometimes it will keep lit and someothers will turn off (of course after I press the stop again to send power to the layout, it will ALWAYS lit again)

Hope you understand this quite confusing explanation

Regards,
Esteban
Offline French_Fabrice  
#24 Posted : 06 June 2015 09:35:09(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,175
Location: Lyon, France
...This thing is a real challenge !


Q5: If you have a 60215, do you have also a small black box provided with the CS2 inserted between the exit plug and the tracks ?
Q6: Are both TT and 7687 genuine parts ? (I mean you purchase them from Marklin or your dealer, and not second hand)

Step 5:
-Stay in config of Step 4
-Unplug power outlet from the wall
-Rotate manually the bridge (see fig 5 of the doc: http://medienpdb.maerkli.../1/pdf/7286_betrieb.pdf) by pushing the lever towards the center, stay pushed, and gently rotate the bridge until a position where the bridge is facing NO TRACK at both ends. Release the lever. The goal is no "0" to be provided to both rails (left and rail) of the bridge.
-Provide power

Test 5.1: The line 1 of 5233 (contact address #81) connected to the bridge SHOULD NOT BE LIT.
If successful, then:
-stop power
-provide "0" to both lines dedicated to the bridge to the 7687, coming from the CS2.
-provide power
Test 5.2: With no loco on the bridge, the expected result is same as Test 5.1.
Test 5.3: put a loco on the bridge. The expected result is #81 LIT.

Advice: As you have booster 60174 & 60215 CS2 (galvanic insulation), you should link "0" from CS2 and "0" from booster together, to have a common ground (only one thick wire between both devices - 0,75mm2 min, preferably located at the departure)...but we will see later.

Cheers
Fabrice
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Offline ecastrog  
#25 Posted : 06 June 2015 17:31:18(UTC)
ecastrog

Ecuador   
Joined: 05/06/2014(UTC)
Posts: 44
Location: Quito
Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice Go to Quoted Post
...This thing is a real challenge !


Q5: If you have a 60215, do you have also a small black box provided with the CS2 inserted between the exit plug and the tracks ?
Q6: Are both TT and 7687 genuine parts ? (I mean you purchase them from Marklin or your dealer, and not second hand)

Step 5:
-Stay in config of Step 4
-Unplug power outlet from the wall
-Rotate manually the bridge (see fig 5 of the doc: http://medienpdb.maerkli.../1/pdf/7286_betrieb.pdf) by pushing the lever towards the center, stay pushed, and gently rotate the bridge until a position where the bridge is facing NO TRACK at both ends. Release the lever. The goal is no "0" to be provided to both rails (left and rail) of the bridge.
-Provide power

Test 5.1: The line 1 of 5233 (contact address #81) connected to the bridge SHOULD NOT BE LIT.
If successful, then:
-stop power
-provide "0" to both lines dedicated to the bridge to the 7687, coming from the CS2.
-provide power
Test 5.2: With no loco on the bridge, the expected result is same as Test 5.1.
Test 5.3: put a loco on the bridge. The expected result is #81 LIT.

Advice: As you have booster 60174 & 60215 CS2 (galvanic insulation), you should link "0" from CS2 and "0" from booster together, to have a common ground (only one thick wire between both devices - 0,75mm2 min, preferably located at the departure)...but we will see later.

Cheers
Fabrice



Hi Fabrice

I am glad this have become a challenge for you!! otherwise nobody else would have helped me the way you do!! BigGrin

Q5: Yes
Q6: Yes, both new and bought at an authorized dealer in the US

Regarding new tests:

5.1: Correct.
5.2: #81 LIT Crying ..
5.3: #81 LIT

I did a little extra test (which I know is not reasonable, but just in case): No "0" lines connected to 7687, loco on the bridge: #81 NOT LIT

About the common ground, thanks for the advise. I will do it after this mystery is solved!!

Regards,
Esteban

Offline French_Fabrice  
#26 Posted : 06 June 2015 18:04:12(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,175
Location: Lyon, France
Hi Esteban,

!!!***@@@!!! (put here swearwords of your native language)

About the extra test you did, the loco should have been not able to move anyway, because no ground... Was it the case ?

It seems something is consumming current when both external rails and B line coming from the 5233 are plugged into the bridge plugs of the 7687 ??? Why ?

One last test (test with only one 0 line, not both on the bridge):

-Go back to configuration of Test 5.1.
-Repeat test 5.1, just to be sure your are in the same configuration

Now:
-power off
-plug 0 line coming the CS2 into one (the one you want) of the 0 line dedicated to the bridge of the 7687

Test 5.4:
-power on (no loco on bridge). As you guessed, NO LIT is expected

Test 5.5:
-power off
-remove the 0 plug of the 7687 you set previously
-now put the 0 plug on the other rail of the 7687 (always on the bridge dedicated set of plugs of the 7687)
-power on (still with no loco). NO LIT is expected


If unfortunately, you still get address 81 lit for 5.4 and 5.5, would you mind to open the 7687 cover and inspect visually if the plugs dedicated to the bridge are connected to some electronic components (inspect for B and 0 lines)

Cheers
fabrice
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Offline ecastrog  
#27 Posted : 06 June 2015 18:53:29(UTC)
ecastrog

Ecuador   
Joined: 05/06/2014(UTC)
Posts: 44
Location: Quito
Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice Go to Quoted Post
Hi Esteban,

!!!***@@@!!! (put here swearwords of your native language)

About the extra test you did, the loco should have been not able to move anyway, because no ground... Was it the case ?

It seems something is consumming current when both external rails and B line coming from the 5233 are plugged into the bridge plugs of the 7687 ??? Why ?

One last test (test with only one 0 line, not both on the bridge):

-Go back to configuration of Test 5.1.
-Repeat test 5.1, just to be sure your are in the same configuration

Now:
-power off
-plug 0 line coming the CS2 into one (the one you want) of the 0 line dedicated to the bridge of the 7687

Test 5.4:
-power on (no loco on bridge). As you guessed, NO LIT is expected

Test 5.5:
-power off
-remove the 0 plug of the 7687 you set previously
-now put the 0 plug on the other rail of the 7687 (always on the bridge dedicated set of plugs of the 7687)
-power on (still with no loco). NO LIT is expected


If unfortunately, you still get address 81 lit for 5.4 and 5.5, would you mind to open the 7687 cover and inspect visually if the plugs dedicated to the bridge are connected to some electronic components (inspect for B and 0 lines)

Cheers
fabrice



Fabrice

When we finish this I will teach you some swear words in spanish!!Blink

OK, here the results (you will be surprised...)

5.4: Right "0" plug of the 7687: #81 LIT

5.5: Left "0" plug of the 7687: #81 NO LIT!!!

I am attaching a couple of pictures. The first is showing in which plug the test was successful

IMG_1940.JPGIMG_1941.JPG
Offline French_Fabrice  
#28 Posted : 06 June 2015 19:46:43(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,175
Location: Lyon, France
Aaah, at least something working as expected im my mind. !BigGrin

I've seen your picture of the 7687, it greatly differs with my 7686 !!!Blink

I put below a picture of my 7686:
UserPostedImage

Legend:
-The blue socket is connected to line 1 of my RMGB8N (5233)
-The brown sockets are all connected together and to common ground
-The red socket AND the yellow one are connected together and to "B" of my booster
-The grey socket is connected to a line of a S88 (feedback for "position reached")

Would you mind to remove the electronic board from the 7687 case (beware, do not touch electronic components !) , and try to determine visually (do not use a multimeter) where the electric tracks of "B", "0 left" and "0 right" go ? Normally, they should go directly to the white 6-pin socket on the left (except maybe for this damned "0 right" ?).
If you face the electronic board, and number (from left to right) the pins from 1 to 6, in my case, the B (bridge) socket goes directly to pin 4, the 0 left (bridge) goes to pin 3, and the 0 right (bridge) goes to pin 1.

Ah! Sorry, just seen again your 7687 picture, but the electronic board is sealed to the box with glue, so discard my previous request.

Try do it visually from top, if it's not too complicated. if not, definitely discard my request.

So the next test is easy. Never plug the "0 right" of the bridge and do tests 5.1, 5.2 and 5.3
-With none "0", 5.1 should provide NO LIT
-With "0 left" connectd to ground, 5.2 should provide NO LIT
-and 5.3 with "0 left" connectd to ground should provide LIT

If things go well, it's not finished because we have not yet provided B+0 to the command section of the 7687Bored

Oh my god !
Cheers
Fabrice
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Offline ecastrog  
#29 Posted : 06 June 2015 20:22:23(UTC)
ecastrog

Ecuador   
Joined: 05/06/2014(UTC)
Posts: 44
Location: Quito
Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice Go to Quoted Post
Aaah, at least something working as expected im my mind. !BigGrin

I've seen your picture of the 7687, it greatly differs with my 7686 !!!Blink

I put below a picture of my 7686:
UserPostedImage

Legend:
-The blue socket is connected to line 1 of my RMGB8N (5233)
-The brown sockets are all connected together and to common ground
-The red socket AND the yellow one are connected together and to "B" of my booster
-The grey socket is connected to a line of a S88 (feedback for "position reached")

Would you mind to remove the electronic board from the 7687 case (beware, do not touch electronic components !) , and try to determine visually (do not use a multimeter) where the electric tracks of "B", "0 left" and "0 right" go ? Normally, they should go directly to the white 6-pin socket on the left (except maybe for this damned "0 right" ?).
If you face the electronic board, and number (from left to right) the pins from 1 to 6, in my case, the B (bridge) socket goes directly to pin 4, the 0 left (bridge) goes to pin 3, and the 0 right (bridge) goes to pin 1.

Ah! Sorry, just seen again your 7687 picture, but the electronic board is sealed to the box with glue, so discard my previous request.

Try do it visually from top, if it's not too complicated. if not, definitely discard my request.

So the next test is easy. Never plug the "0 right" of the bridge and do tests 5.1, 5.2 and 5.3
-With none "0", 5.1 should provide NO LIT
-With "0 left" connectd to ground, 5.2 should provide NO LIT
-and 5.3 with "0 left" connectd to ground should provide LIT

If things go well, it's not finished because we have not yet provided B+0 to the command section of the 7687Bored

Oh my god !
Cheers
Fabrice


Hi

At least before I leave (and you probably go to bed!) I was able to test the latest

The 3 tests passed when connecting the "0" only to the left plug!! BigGrin (of course test 5.1 was with no "0" connections at all)

I managed to determine the pins and it looks they are arranged as follows:

"B": Pin #1
"0 left": Pin #3
"0 right": Pin #4

Regards,
Esteban
Offline French_Fabrice  
#30 Posted : 06 June 2015 21:49:17(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,175
Location: Lyon, France
Originally Posted by: ecastrog Go to Quoted Post

...
(Fabrice) If you face the electronic board, and number (from left to right) the pins from 1 to 6, in my case, the B (bridge) socket goes directly to pin 4, the 0 left (bridge) goes to pin 3, and the 0 right (bridge) goes to pin 1.
...
(Esteban) I managed to determine the pins and it looks they are arranged as follows:

"B": Pin #1
"0 left": Pin #3
"0 right": Pin #4
...

Regards,
Esteban


Okay, we have passed the third hurdle (current detection from bridge ok when bridge not facing external tracks). ThumpUp (1st was to be sure 5233 runs well, and 2nd was spoke tracks correctly insulated)

Looking at the pin connections you told me, there is an other difference compared to my configuration. Pin 1 & 4 are swapped ! I suppose the bridge & motors have been changed accordingly to this difference (or maybe more simply the flat ribbon is modified ?) ...DO NOT TRY to plug B to 0 right, and 0 to B Bridge !!! Let it as is...


Starting from now, apply the following rule:
Rule 1: Do not connect "0 right(bridge)" to any wire. Keep it "open".

Step 6:
-reconnect entry track to the TT and to the 5233 (line 2)
-reconnect track1 to the TT, and wire the "B" of track1 to line 3 of the 5233
-rotate the bridge to face both entry track & track1.
-Wire "B bridge" to line 1 of the 5233
-Wire "0 left(bridge)" to ground
-DO NOT wire B+0 on the "command side" of the 7687 (not yet)
-power on

Test 6.1: NO loco anywhere:
Address 81: NO LIT
Address 82: NO LIT
Address 83: NO LIT

Test 6.2: loco on entry track:
Address 81: NO LIT
Address 82: LIT
Address 83: NO LIT

Test 6.3: loco on bridge:
Address 81: LIT
Address 82: NO LIT
Address 83: NO LIT

Test 6.4: loco on track1:
Address 81: NO LIT
Address 82: NO LIT
Address 83: LIT

To be honest, I fear we may experience some failure, because the "0 right" rail as the "0 left" rail of the bridge will have same potential when the TT is facing entry track (0 from entry track is propagated to both rails of the bridge by the 2 small "^" contacts -below the rails of the bridge- located at the both ends of the bridge)... The only difference with the schema I did a few days ago (except for the B+0 command side of the 7687 not yet connected), is the "0 right" plug of the bridge is not wired to "0". We may win...or not.

If all tests are successful, then it's time to inspect if the bridge is moving when driving it from the CS2.
In one of your recent posts, you said the TT was no more moving Confused ...

Step 7:
-power off
-disconnect line1, line2, line 3 from the 5233
-disconnect 0 left (bridge)
Now, nothing is connected to the 5233, and the "bridge section" of the 7687 has no connection.
-Put a "B" wire coming from the CS2 into the "B" of the 7687 "command section"
-Put a "0" wire coming from the CS2 into the "0" of the 7687 "command section"
-provide power and try to move the bridge when driving it from the CS2. Note: Due to various tests, the memorized configuration inside the 7687 may have been lost. In such a case, you may have to reconfigure all the tracks (or at least 2 different tracks) you wish...

Cheers
Fabrice
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Offline ecastrog  
#31 Posted : 08 June 2015 00:06:42(UTC)
ecastrog

Ecuador   
Joined: 05/06/2014(UTC)
Posts: 44
Location: Quito
Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: ecastrog Go to Quoted Post

...
(Fabrice) If you face the electronic board, and number (from left to right) the pins from 1 to 6, in my case, the B (bridge) socket goes directly to pin 4, the 0 left (bridge) goes to pin 3, and the 0 right (bridge) goes to pin 1.
...
(Esteban) I managed to determine the pins and it looks they are arranged as follows:

"B": Pin #1
"0 left": Pin #3
"0 right": Pin #4
...

Regards,
Esteban


Okay, we have passed the third hurdle (current detection from bridge ok when bridge not facing external tracks). ThumpUp (1st was to be sure 5233 runs well, and 2nd was spoke tracks correctly insulated)

Looking at the pin connections you told me, there is an other difference compared to my configuration. Pin 1 & 4 are swapped ! I suppose the bridge & motors have been changed accordingly to this difference (or maybe more simply the flat ribbon is modified ?) ...DO NOT TRY to plug B to 0 right, and 0 to B Bridge !!! Let it as is...


Starting from now, apply the following rule:
Rule 1: Do not connect "0 right(bridge)" to any wire. Keep it "open".

Step 6:
-reconnect entry track to the TT and to the 5233 (line 2)
-reconnect track1 to the TT, and wire the "B" of track1 to line 3 of the 5233
-rotate the bridge to face both entry track & track1.
-Wire "B bridge" to line 1 of the 5233
-Wire "0 left(bridge)" to ground
-DO NOT wire B+0 on the "command side" of the 7687 (not yet)
-power on

Test 6.1: NO loco anywhere:
Address 81: NO LIT
Address 82: NO LIT
Address 83: NO LIT

Test 6.2: loco on entry track:
Address 81: NO LIT
Address 82: LIT
Address 83: NO LIT

Test 6.3: loco on bridge:
Address 81: LIT
Address 82: NO LIT
Address 83: NO LIT

Test 6.4: loco on track1:
Address 81: NO LIT
Address 82: NO LIT
Address 83: LIT

To be honest, I fear we may experience some failure, because the "0 right" rail as the "0 left" rail of the bridge will have same potential when the TT is facing entry track (0 from entry track is propagated to both rails of the bridge by the 2 small "^" contacts -below the rails of the bridge- located at the both ends of the bridge)... The only difference with the schema I did a few days ago (except for the B+0 command side of the 7687 not yet connected), is the "0 right" plug of the bridge is not wired to "0". We may win...or not.

If all tests are successful, then it's time to inspect if the bridge is moving when driving it from the CS2.
In one of your recent posts, you said the TT was no more moving Confused ...

Step 7:
-power off
-disconnect line1, line2, line 3 from the 5233
-disconnect 0 left (bridge)
Now, nothing is connected to the 5233, and the "bridge section" of the 7687 has no connection.
-Put a "B" wire coming from the CS2 into the "B" of the 7687 "command section"
-Put a "0" wire coming from the CS2 into the "0" of the 7687 "command section"
-provide power and try to move the bridge when driving it from the CS2. Note: Due to various tests, the memorized configuration inside the 7687 may have been lost. In such a case, you may have to reconfigure all the tracks (or at least 2 different tracks) you wish...

Cheers
Fabrice



Hi Fabrice

First of all let me tell you that what seemed to be swaped was my brain!!Blink , PIN #1 is for "0 Right" and PIN #4 is for "B", so your 4686 and my 4687 have the same pin configuration.... sorry about that

Second, as you guessed, test No. 6 Failed....Crying:

Test 6.1: NO loco anywhere:
Address 81: LIT
Address 82: NO LIT
Address 83: LIT

Test 6.2: loco on entry track:
Address 81: LIT
Address 82: LIT
Address 83: LIT

Test 6.3: loco on bridge:
Address 81: LIT
Address 82: NO LIT
Address 83: LIT

Test 6.4: loco on track1:
Address 81: LIT
Address 82: NO LIT
Address 83: LIT

Same results as test 3, I guess....

Regarding Step 7, worked fine thankfully!! Something may have happened when everything was connected at the beginning..

Best,
Esteban
Offline French_Fabrice  
#32 Posted : 08 June 2015 08:18:48(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,175
Location: Lyon, France
Hi Esteban,

I'm not very confident for a final success...ThumbDown

I don't understand why there is current consumption when 0 left and 0 right are connected together when no loco is on the bridge ???
-Either it's a normal behavior with a 7687 (different from 7686) and as a result current consumption detection CANNOT BE USED on the bridge
-or your 7687 is defective and/or the bridge has a defect

As I don't have a 7687, I'd like to get advices from other forum members if this behavior is normal or not (I'm thinking to Ross and Jonas - Hey guys, your advice is welcome, or any other people of course !)

Meanwhile, do a few other tests:

Step 8:
-Stay in configuration of step 6
-put a wire between "0 left" and "0 command" on the 7687
Test 8.1: Power on, with no loco on bridge, check #81 (NO LIT expected)
Test 8.2: Remove previous added wire; put it now between "0 right" and "0 command", and check #81 with no loco (NO LIT expected)
Test 8.3: Wire 0 left, 0 right and 0 command to common ground; with no loco on bridge, check #81 (NO LIT expected)

Step 9:
Remove the small black box used for connecting the CS2 to the layout... You have to install 2 new wires ("B" & "O") from the CS2 exit to your 2 main distribution plates... I'd like to know if this filter has an impact or not.
Stay in configuration of step 6, and do the tests of step 6


Step 10:
I'd also like you inspect the bridge (visual inspection) just to see if there is no "unwanted additional connection"? For that, you need to remove the bridge. To remove the bridge, you must:
0) power off
1) remove all spoke tracks facing both ends of the bridge, + additional spoke tracks on one side (4 or 5 pieces where is located the small house)
2) remove the screw located at the center of the bridge
3) lift up gently the 2 pieces of metal ("B" metal piece); Beware to the copper piece located below (don't lose it)
4) now the bridge should come by gently lifting it up

Test 10.1: When the bridge is removed, please inspect it from below and check if the 2 "inverted V" metal pieces located at both ends (propagating the 0 from tracks to bridge) are in operation order (no twist or any suspect thing)
Test 10.2: When removing the bridge, you will see a circular base with 6 concentric electric tracks. These tracks should be all separated from each other
Test 10.3: Try to follow visually where the electric track coming from pin1 and pin3 of the 7687 go, from the 7687 to the circular base (use color code of the flat ribbon), then from the metal clips of the bridge touching this circular base to ...where you can. The main idea is to detect if there is a "suspect unwanted connection" between 0 left and 0 right...


Cheers
Fabrice

Edited by user 08 June 2015 13:47:35(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline ecastrog  
#33 Posted : 08 June 2015 19:10:06(UTC)
ecastrog

Ecuador   
Joined: 05/06/2014(UTC)
Posts: 44
Location: Quito
Hi Fabrice

At work right now, so I am not able to try what you suggested.

I will at night.

I found this article (I know it is about programming the turntable) but it has some interesting drawings on how to connect 7686/7687 with s88 and so on..

Maybe it is interesting to look at. You have far more experience than me..

http://members.ozemail.c...urntable_programming.pdf

I will let you know when I do the new testing

Regards,
Esteban
Offline French_Fabrice  
#34 Posted : 08 June 2015 19:22:23(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,175
Location: Lyon, France
Hi Esteban,

Yes, I know Ross article. Very well written and explained !
That is one of the next possible step if "current consumption detection" definitely fail about the bridge.

What is described in Ross article implies also to make other modifications to spoke tracks (see page 15). We'll discuss about that later if necessary.

Cheers
Fabrice
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Offline ecastrog  
#35 Posted : 09 June 2015 04:55:59(UTC)
ecastrog

Ecuador   
Joined: 05/06/2014(UTC)
Posts: 44
Location: Quito
Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice Go to Quoted Post
Hi Esteban,

I'm not very confident for a final success...ThumbDown

I don't understand why there is current consumption when 0 left and 0 right are connected together when no loco is on the bridge ???
-Either it's a normal behavior with a 7687 (different from 7686) and as a result current consumption detection CANNOT BE USED on the bridge
-or your 7687 is defective and/or the bridge has a defect

As I don't have a 7687, I'd like to get advices from other forum members if this behavior is normal or not (I'm thinking to Ross and Jonas - Hey guys, your advice is welcome, or any other people of course !)

Meanwhile, do a few other tests:

Step 8:
-Stay in configuration of step 6
-put a wire between "0 left" and "0 command" on the 7687
Test 8.1: Power on, with no loco on bridge, check #81 (NO LIT expected)
Test 8.2: Remove previous added wire; put it now between "0 right" and "0 command", and check #81 with no loco (NO LIT expected)
Test 8.3: Wire 0 left, 0 right and 0 command to common ground; with no loco on bridge, check #81 (NO LIT expected)

Step 9:
Remove the small black box used for connecting the CS2 to the layout... You have to install 2 new wires ("B" & "O") from the CS2 exit to your 2 main distribution plates... I'd like to know if this filter has an impact or not.
Stay in configuration of step 6, and do the tests of step 6


Step 10:
I'd also like you inspect the bridge (visual inspection) just to see if there is no "unwanted additional connection"? For that, you need to remove the bridge. To remove the bridge, you must:
0) power off
1) remove all spoke tracks facing both ends of the bridge, + additional spoke tracks on one side (4 or 5 pieces where is located the small house)
2) remove the screw located at the center of the bridge
3) lift up gently the 2 pieces of metal ("B" metal piece); Beware to the copper piece located below (don't lose it)
4) now the bridge should come by gently lifting it up

Test 10.1: When the bridge is removed, please inspect it from below and check if the 2 "inverted V" metal pieces located at both ends (propagating the 0 from tracks to bridge) are in operation order (no twist or any suspect thing)
Test 10.2: When removing the bridge, you will see a circular base with 6 concentric electric tracks. These tracks should be all separated from each other
Test 10.3: Try to follow visually where the electric track coming from pin1 and pin3 of the 7687 go, from the 7687 to the circular base (use color code of the flat ribbon), then from the metal clips of the bridge touching this circular base to ...where you can. The main idea is to detect if there is a "suspect unwanted connection" between 0 left and 0 right...


Cheers
Fabrice



Hi Fabrice

I didn't know that article was Ross's.... Thank you anyway. I hope Ross would jump into this issue also!!


Ok, now to our drama:

Step 8 and 9...... same results.

I also did a different test, in order to discard 7867 malfunctioning (I guess??), so I tried the same connections (step 6) but not to the 7687 but to the board that comes with the TT.. (picture). Well, I had exactly the same results...Confused

IMG_1965.JPG

Regarding test No. 10, here are my findings:

10.1. Looks like the little inverted "V"'s are ok

IMG_1962.JPG

10.2: Actually there are 5 concentric electric tracks. Number 6 is actually the screw that holds the bridge. They are indeed electrically separated. (I tested with the multimeter..)

IMG_1958.JPG

10.3:

Lets number the circular tracks 1 through 5, from the outermost to the innermost track. Number 6 will be the screw holder.
Again, as we did before, I numbered PINS from left to right, 1 through 6

Here are the results:

PIN #1 (BROWN): CIRCLE #1 (OUTER)
PIN #2 (RED): CIRCLE #4
PIN #3 (ORANGE): CIRCLE #2
PIN #4 (YELLOW): NO CIRCLE. IT HAS CONTINUITY WITH THE CENTER SCREW
PIN #5 (GREEN): CIRCLE #5 (INNER)
PIN #6 (BLUE): CIRCLE #3


I also put the numbers in the metal clips in the following picture, so it is easy to see where they are going.

IMG_1963.JPGIMG_1960.JPG


It looks consistent....
Circle #1 and #3 go to Pin #1 and #3 which are "0 left" and "0 right" and phisically are also left and right track
Circle #6 (screw) goes to Pin #4 which is "B". Phisically it also goes to the metal center rail

The rest of the metal clips go to the motor, and they all seem to be connected with few diodes or who knows!!

I hope you can find something out with all of these pictures!!

Best regards,
Esteban
Offline French_Fabrice  
#36 Posted : 09 June 2015 08:22:46(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,175
Location: Lyon, France
Originally Posted by: ecastrog Go to Quoted Post

...
I also did a different test, in order to discard 7867 malfunctioning (I guess??), so I tried the same connections (step 6) but not to the 7687 but to the board that comes with the TT.. (picture). Well, I had exactly the same results...Confused
...


Hi Esteban,

If you have connected the TT thru this board (which has no embedded electronic component ? Is it true ?), then that means it's the bridge itself which is consumming current between the 2 "0" tracks !!! So, the 7687 is not guilty.

Would you mind to provide me larger photos of the bridge (from below) ?

Also, please do:
Test 11: with your multimeter set in "resistance measurement", try to measure the resistance between the two metal clips 1 and 2 (0 left and 0 right) on the bridge.
Test 12: Also try to inspect from top side or below side if there is no grease that could conduct electricity between 0 left and 0 right on the bridge

I'm not sure to succeed, but at least the problem is more and more located...

Cheers
Fabrice
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Offline efel  
#37 Posted : 09 June 2015 13:22:46(UTC)
efel

France   
Joined: 23/02/2005(UTC)
Posts: 798
Hi,

I would do the following tests (only TT and the board that comes with TT)

fl1: Measure the resistance (not only "beep") between "B" and "0 right", both directions ( I mean, if we call "m" and "n" the two wires from the multimeter, 1 measurement with "m" on "B" and "n" on "0-right", and 1 measurment with "n" on "B" and "m" on "0-right". Both directions measurements allow to detect a "diode" effect.

fl2: the same between "B" and "0_left".

If all values are large (say > 100kOhms), the parasitic current could be capacitive. Is there any capacitor connected to the "B" connection (visual check)?

Best regards,

Fred
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Offline ecastrog  
#38 Posted : 09 June 2015 20:20:33(UTC)
ecastrog

Ecuador   
Joined: 05/06/2014(UTC)
Posts: 44
Location: Quito
Hi Fabrice, Fred

Thank you for your interest.

I didn't have time this morning to take the pictures (the TT was assembled again), nor to do the testing

I will tonight and let you know the results

One question Fabrice:

Do you want me to do the measurements directly from the ribbon wire? or you want me to connect the TT to the 7687 and do the measurements??

In the case of Fred I understand that is connected to the original board..


I read again your request Fabrice. Clearly I have to measure directly in the bridge.... sorry for my misunderstanding!!


Regards,
Esteban
Offline French_Fabrice  
#39 Posted : 09 June 2015 21:01:23(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,175
Location: Lyon, France
Hi Fred, Esteban, all

@Fred: Thanks for joining us and provide test ideas.

While waiting for results provided by Esteban, I'm going to summarize the current status :

-The 5233 is working correctly BigGrin
-The spoke tracks processed by Esteban have the "B" correctly insulated from outer tracks (tongue of spoke track removed) BigGrin
-When the bridge is facing NO TRACK at both sides, AND line 1 of Vie5233 is connected to decoder socket "B bridge" AND "0 left" from the decoder is connected to ground, the behavior of 5233 is correct ! BigGrin
-Unfortunately, an additional connection of "0 right" to ground breaks this behavior Cursing

In one of my latest reply, I jumped (too quickly) to the conclusion that the bridge was the culprit, and not the decoder. This is wrong, because the bridge was in that case facing external tracks (maybe an other source of errors ?).
So, to definitely discard the 7687 as a possible source of "parasitic" current:

Step 13 (I've lost the count, so we restart using this number)
-Stay in configuration of Step 5, i.e. the bridge is facing NO TRACK
-Use the "fake board" shown in IMG_1965 of post #35, instead of the 7687 decoder
-Connect line 1 of Vie5233 to "B" bridge of this fake board
-Connect ground to "0 left" of this fake board
-Connect the TT ribbon to the white plug of this fake board

Test 13.1
-Provide power with no loco on bridge: Expected result = NO LIT
-Put a loco on bridge: Expected result = LIT

Test 13.2
-power off
-Additionaly wire "0 right" of the fake board to ground
-Power on with no loco: Expected result = NO LIT
-Put a loco on bridge: Expected result = LIT

If test 13.2 fails, i.e LIT always shown, then definitely the bridge is the culprit: Something is consuming current in the bridge.
Tests asked by Fred may provide clues in this direction.

Cheers
Fabrice
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Offline French_Fabrice  
#40 Posted : 09 June 2015 21:11:47(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,175
Location: Lyon, France
Originally Posted by: ecastrog Go to Quoted Post
Hi Fabrice, Fred

...

In the case of Fred I understand that is connected to the original board..
...
Esteban


Esteban, to get rid of possible misinterpretation of "original board", I understand "use what I call the fake board shown in IMG_1965 and NOT the decoder"
Please Fred, would you mind to confirm (or invalidate) my statement ?

Cheers
fabrice
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Offline ecastrog  
#41 Posted : 09 June 2015 21:24:13(UTC)
ecastrog

Ecuador   
Joined: 05/06/2014(UTC)
Posts: 44
Location: Quito
Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: ecastrog Go to Quoted Post
Hi Fabrice, Fred

...

In the case of Fred I understand that is connected to the original board..
...
Esteban


Esteban, to get rid of possible misinterpretation of "original board", I understand "use what I call the fake board shown in IMG_1965 and NOT the decoder"
Please Fred, would you mind to confirm (or invalidate) my statement ?

Cheers
fabrice


Fabrice

I think I got it that way. Unless Fred says the opposite...

Just to be coherent I will use the "fake board" term from now on

Thanks!!
Esteban
Offline efel  
#42 Posted : 09 June 2015 22:37:19(UTC)
efel

France   
Joined: 23/02/2005(UTC)
Posts: 798
Hi,

Yes, I suggested to use the IMG_1965 board, for you have found that the problem was with the TT and not the decoder.

Regards


Fred
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Offline ecastrog  
#43 Posted : 10 June 2015 04:43:55(UTC)
ecastrog

Ecuador   
Joined: 05/06/2014(UTC)
Posts: 44
Location: Quito
Originally Posted by: efel Go to Quoted Post
Hi,

I would do the following tests (only TT and the board that comes with TT)

fl1: Measure the resistance (not only "beep") between "B" and "0 right", both directions ( I mean, if we call "m" and "n" the two wires from the multimeter, 1 measurement with "m" on "B" and "n" on "0-right", and 1 measurment with "n" on "B" and "m" on "0-right". Both directions measurements allow to detect a "diode" effect.

fl2: the same between "B" and "0_left".

If all values are large (say > 100kOhms), the parasitic current could be capacitive. Is there any capacitor connected to the "B" connection (visual check)?

Best regards,

Fred



Hi Fabrice, Fred!

I made the tests required by Fred, but since I am not an electric or electronic expert, I fear I may have done something wrong... (hope not..Crying )

First I did the measurements with the multimeter as shown (in the 200 ohm range), but then I realized the power on the layout was off..... so I think that is incorrect.

IMG_1969.JPG

So when I powered the layout, it was clear that I needed a bigger scale, so I connected the multimeter to the external which gives me a much larger scale for measuring.... I hope I am doing it correctly..Confused

IMG_1982.JPG

So, the measurements are like the following:

"red probe" on "B" - "black probe on "0 Left": -276 MOhm
"red probe" on "0 left" - "black probe" on "B": 0 ohm

"red probe" on "B" - "black probe" on "0 right": -338 MOhm
"red probe" on "0 right" - "black probe" on "B": 0 ohm

Attached images...

IMG_1980.JPGIMG_1981.JPGIMG_1978.JPGIMG_1979.JPG

All the measurements are done with:

layout (and therefore TT) powered
TT bridge not facing any track

(I did the same measures with the bridge facing entry track and are very similar..)

I am attaching (on Fabrice request) pictures of the insulation of entry track, spoke tracks rework.

Regarding the diagram, basically is the same as Fabrice already showed before.

IMG_1974.JPGIMG_1973.JPGIMG_1972.JPGIMG_1975.JPGIMG_1970.JPG


Thank you all, and best regards,

Esteban
Offline ecastrog  
#44 Posted : 10 June 2015 04:46:06(UTC)
ecastrog

Ecuador   
Joined: 05/06/2014(UTC)
Posts: 44
Location: Quito
Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice Go to Quoted Post
Hi Fred, Esteban, all

@Fred: Thanks for joining us and provide test ideas.

While waiting for results provided by Esteban, I'm going to summarize the current status :

-The 5233 is working correctly BigGrin
-The spoke tracks processed by Esteban have the "B" correctly insulated from outer tracks (tongue of spoke track removed) BigGrin
-When the bridge is facing NO TRACK at both sides, AND line 1 of Vie5233 is connected to decoder socket "B bridge" AND "0 left" from the decoder is connected to ground, the behavior of 5233 is correct ! BigGrin
-Unfortunately, an additional connection of "0 right" to ground breaks this behavior Cursing

In one of my latest reply, I jumped (too quickly) to the conclusion that the bridge was the culprit, and not the decoder. This is wrong, because the bridge was in that case facing external tracks (maybe an other source of errors ?).
So, to definitely discard the 7687 as a possible source of "parasitic" current:

Step 13 (I've lost the count, so we restart using this number)
-Stay in configuration of Step 5, i.e. the bridge is facing NO TRACK
-Use the "fake board" shown in IMG_1965 of post #35, instead of the 7687 decoder
-Connect line 1 of Vie5233 to "B" bridge of this fake board
-Connect ground to "0 left" of this fake board
-Connect the TT ribbon to the white plug of this fake board

Test 13.1
-Provide power with no loco on bridge: Expected result = NO LIT
-Put a loco on bridge: Expected result = LIT

Test 13.2
-power off
-Additionaly wire "0 right" of the fake board to ground
-Power on with no loco: Expected result = NO LIT
-Put a loco on bridge: Expected result = LIT

If test 13.2 fails, i.e LIT always shown, then definitely the bridge is the culprit: Something is consuming current in the bridge.
Tests asked by Fred may provide clues in this direction.

Cheers
Fabrice



Hi Fabrice

Here the results (as expected...)

13.1: Correct, both scenarios work
13.2: Bridge LIT always shown (with and without loco)


Regards,
Esteban
Offline French_Fabrice  
#45 Posted : 10 June 2015 08:18:10(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,175
Location: Lyon, France
Hi Esteban,

->Conclusion of Step 13: the 7687 is not involved in the issue we are facing. It's the Bridge !

About the tests asked by Fred, in my mind you should have done them WITHOUT power, because the multimeter has its own power source (a small battery) to measure resistance value.

Please redo tests asked by Fred, with the following configuration:
-No power
-Brigde facing NO TRACK
-TT ribbon connected to white plug of fake board
-No other wire connected

fl1: put a test probe (the red one) on "B bridge" of fake board, the other one (the black one) on "0 right" of fake board; write the value; do the same test by reverting the probes; write the value
fl2: put a test probe (the red one) on "B bridge" of fake board, the other one (the black one) on "0 left" of fake board; write the value; do the same test by reverting the probes; write the value

Cheers
Fabrice
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Offline efel  
#46 Posted : 10 June 2015 08:43:40(UTC)
efel

France   
Joined: 23/02/2005(UTC)
Posts: 798
Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice Go to Quoted Post
Hi Esteban,

->Conclusion of Step 13: the 7687 is not involved in the issue we are facing. It's the Bridge !

About the tests asked by Fred, in my mind you should have done them WITHOUT power, because the multimeter has its own power source (a small battery) to measure resistance value.

Please redo tests asked by Fred, with the following configuration:
-No power
-Brigde facing NO TRACK
-TT ribbon connected to white plug of fake board
-No other wire connected

fl1: put a test probe (the red one) on "B bridge" of fake board, the other one (the black one) on "0 right" of fake board; write the value; do the same test by reverting the probes; write the value
fl2: put a test probe (the red one) on "B bridge" of fake board, the other one (the black one) on "0 left" of fake board; write the value; do the same test by reverting the probes; write the value

Cheers
Fabrice


Hi Esteban, Fabrice,

I agree with the Fabrice answer above.
Furthermore, the test probes connections to the multimeter must be as in your IMG_1969 pic, that is the black probe must be in the "COM" plug, NOT in the "EXT" plug. The range switch should be on 20K Ω.

Regards, Fred
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Offline Ross  
#47 Posted : 10 June 2015 10:41:19(UTC)
Ross

Australia   
Joined: 25/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 663
Location: Sydney, NSW
Hi Fabrice, Esteban, Fred,

This is a difficult problem to solve by remote control/distance.

Some issues I see. The detection is being done by the CS2 and Esteban is using a booster and mentioned the (0) ground(s) are not connected this can be a problem as you can have a voltage difference between the grounds. For detection to work well the grounds should be common.

Fred also mentioned that he is using a transition track K to C, are the rails connected and is there an insulator from the transition piece to the normal C track for both rails?

On page 5 of the decoder it states the following. How is the reset?

For the track occupancy detector in the 5233 to
work, it is necessary for there to be a digital voltage
on the track. The internal voltage monitoring
system of the 5233 makes sure, that in case of an
interruption of the digital voltage in the monitored
sections the last occupancy reporting status is “frozen”
and saved. If the digital voltage is switched
on again, the data of the last occupancy reporting
status can be used.

Last comment is to measure between the two wires (white) to make sure the rails are not connected while the tt bridge is not facing any other tracks.



Ross
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Offline French_Fabrice  
#48 Posted : 10 June 2015 22:23:00(UTC)
French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,175
Location: Lyon, France
Hi Esteban, Fred, Ross, all,

Esteban, to go in direction suggested by Ross, I would like you do the following:

- First: Do the test asked by Fred and with the configuration described in post #46.
Please report the results.

- Second (Step 14): To be really sure the existing wiring of the layout is not also responsible of this strange behavior, please do what is shown in the following diagram:
UserPostedImage

I mean NOTHING ELSE must be connected to B and 0 (no track, no switch, no K83/K84/M83/M84 decoder, no S88 decoder, no signal, and so on...). Don't forget to change the feedback address tested because now it is address #1, and no more #81 (or simply add an icon of s88 feedback with address #1, in the "layout" section of the CS2). Beware to correctly connect the S88 ribbon into the 5233 : when alone, the 5233 S88 plug to connect to the CS2 S88 plug is the one located at the bottom of the arrow labeled "Richtung Digitalzentrale (To CS2)".

Test 14.1: No loco on bridge = NO LIT; Loco on bridge = LIT
If fortunately test 14.1 is OK, then the existing wiring of your layout IS the culprit and an other story is going to begin Crying !

If test 14.1 fails (always LIT in both case), do test 14.2.
Test 14.2:
-remove "0 right" from fake board; No loco on bridge = NO LIT; Loco on bridge = LIT

If test 14.2 succeeds, the wiring of your layout can be discarded, and we're back to the bridge...

-Third: Please do the remaining asked by Ross (point 3 and 4)...

Good luck
Cheers
Fabrice
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Offline ecastrog  
#49 Posted : 10 June 2015 23:42:20(UTC)
ecastrog

Ecuador   
Joined: 05/06/2014(UTC)
Posts: 44
Location: Quito
Hi Fabrice / Ross / Fred

Thank you all for your support

Here are the results of the tests asked by Fred:

No resistance at all in any of the connections......

Attached some pictures

IMG_1994.JPGIMG_1993.JPGIMG_1992.JPGIMG_1991.JPG

Now I will do what you asked Fabrice.... Report on that later on


Thank you again!!
Offline ecastrog  
#50 Posted : 11 June 2015 00:23:23(UTC)
ecastrog

Ecuador   
Joined: 05/06/2014(UTC)
Posts: 44
Location: Quito
Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice Go to Quoted Post
Hi Esteban, Fred, Ross, all,

Esteban, to go in direction suggested by Ross, I would like you do the following:

- First: Do the test asked by Fred and with the configuration described in post #46.
Please report the results.

- Second (Step 14): To be really sure the existing wiring of the layout is not also responsible of this strange behavior, please do what is shown in the following diagram:

......

Test 14.1: No loco on bridge = NO LIT; Loco on bridge = LIT
If fortunately test 14.1 is OK, then the existing wiring of your layout IS the culprit and an other story is going to begin Crying !

If test 14.1 fails (always LIT in both case), do test 14.2.
Test 14.2:
-remove "0 right" from fake board; No loco on bridge = NO LIT; Loco on bridge = LIT

If test 14.2 succeeds, the wiring of your layout can be discarded, and we're back to the bridge...

-Third: Please do the remaining asked by Ross (point 3 and 4)...

Good luck
Cheers
Fabrice



Hi Fabrice

OK, here is the situation.

Test 14.1: Fail!!
Test 14.2 Succeed!!

So I think we are back to the bridge...

The only difference with your diagram is that I have Transformer 60065... not 60061. But I think that is not a problem

This thing is driving me nuts (and I bet you also!!!)Cursing Cursing


BTW.... I did the test both with the small black box (of the CS2) and without it... just in case

Regards,

Esteban
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