Hi,
I would assume that the decoder is at fault... it is probably on the way out.

IF it is the decoder, you need to get a new one to replace it.

Hi, Dave!

I presume the loco switches to analog mode and goes running (AFAIK sound is off in analog mode).

Apart from testing it analog with transformer I have no idea.

Is your CS1 upgraded to 3.0.x?
If so, disable M4, DCC, RailCom (at least for a test) or try a different digital controller if available.

If the decoder is defective, I'd go for a PCB from the 37452 with a decoder of your choice (mfx or DCC).

@Ray: ex works, the loco has a decoder with DIP switches.

This would be quite alarming and funny at the same time. Imagine, out of the blue one of your locos decides to just take off...

Thank you all for your replies.My CS1 is a factory upgrade model only. The Decoder on the locomotive
has dip switches. Have tried to reset CV8.The loco stops while this procedure is been carried out and then takes off at full speed. I do believe that this decoder is actually cactus. What do you guys reckon?.

John, I placed the loco on the track & lifted the driving wheels clear of the track & it ran a furious pace. I fiddled with the dip switches & got a range of results for example when toggle switch No 2 was set to "on" the loco stops & the fire box light will come on & sounds appeared. Now I have some sounds & lights forward & still runs out of control.However when the reverse knob is depressed the lights try to change over & there is an audible noise on the board & the CS 1 flicks to stop. I have to change the direction of travel & touch the gear to get it to go again & away it goes in forward at full tilt. So to sum it up,dip switch 1-3-8 is on to give address 45 & when switch on will run flat out forward with some sounds & front lights. To reverse creates a short & the CS shuts down.

Hello John, got hold of a mobile station & the tests were the same. It has a dead short when reverse is applied & still runs at full throttle in forward. Had a good look for loose or pinched wires & naught to be found. I guess I need to find a new decoder & that also is another problem as it is no longer available. The loco is long time out of warranty & the painful part is it is hardly used. Mostly for display. I may have to look at fitting a LokSound V 3.5 decoder & trying to work out a way to couple up the pcb boards to operate the LED lights etc.

It is recommended that you get the PCB from 37452 as well for a tidier conversion. This will make it easy should in the future you need to change the decoder - you don't have to desolder and solder everything back.

Marklin part number is 112281 - Euro 15 RRP

Then you will only need a Loksound that comes with a 21-pin plug.

Good luck..

It still concerns me that the loco has a short when reversed.
Although it is obvious the decoder is faulty from your description of trouble shooting.
What guaranty have you got that the same will not happen when you plug another decoder into it ?
I still would search for more clues (e.g. wires, PCB, etc. etc.) why the loco shortens when reversing, before going ahead of installing the decoder.
Does the loco shorten when the housing or boiler is off ? Have you got a multimeter ?
Otherwise I can't give you any better advise as Tim pointed out

regards.,
John

I'm a bit late arriving at the party, however, before assuming it is the control board or the decoder, can I suggest removing the decoder only and connect the motor functions to another loco. For a brief test I do not think you risk damaging a motor in another loco. As the 45 has a motor with a bell shaped amateur the control board should be adapting the decoder to the correct driving characteristics. Do you have another loco with a bell-shaped armature for testing?

I have been looking at the exploded parts diagram on the Maerklin.de website, the good news is that all the parts are in stock, apart from the motor itself. As is typical Marklin practice, the sound decoder is listed with it's part number 219574, but it's price and stock status are not shown.

Link to exploded parts diagram:-
http://www.maerklin.de/s....php?artikelnummer=37450

In my experience the failure of a decoder of this type would be extremely unlikely, I therefore go with the theory of a short or failed component elsewhere in the loco. One possible caulprit could be the light/sensor board in the loco itself Part No. 219531. This part is No.20 on the exploded diagram, and is Euro 14,95. So, particularly if it is not possible to test the decoder board in another loco, I may be tempted to try this part first before more expensive components.

I hope this is of some help.
Best Regards
Ashley

Edited by user 28 January 2010 03:50:02(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Ok, Jeehring & Ashley, you have convinced me to go back to the drawing board. I will run more tests on this loco firstly in analoge mode with correct address settings & then the motor separately with another decoder & then hook up this decoder to run another loco. I will also pay special attention to the lighting board you made mention of. I will come back soon with the results. Watch this space

Helping daveB post a Picture.

NN

John, many thanks for your reply. The wires from the faulty electronic component are Blue & green & go directly to the Maxon motor. The thick red wire from pick up shoe is all good.The other thin red wire goes to the smoke unit.All wires checked & no issues there.The brown wire goes to earth on the other board below the motor. Before I install new decoder I will as a matter of course replace all wires.All that now remains is to test the motor separately which I will do today.

Dave...

its a 6090x decoder, not MFX in the 37450.

I wouldn't buy a new decoder yet Dave, as Ashley said you should be able to just replace the component and will cost next to nothing.

If you can read any info on the IC and google it you should be able to find specs and source a compatible replacement.

Hi Guys, many thanks for all your input on this subject. The problem happened while in digital operation & loco just took off on the layout with no control. Had been running fine up till that point. The analog bit was just to follow out the tests you guys suggested. System used is CS1.It has been suggested to me that I should just get another type of decoder for this loco as to replace / repair it could be a costly affair. I truly would like to put my finger on the cause of it but I just cannot see anything that I have done that may have caused this decoder to fail. In hind site the analog test maybe I should not have carried out bust what did I have to loose as I believed the decoder to be faulty in the first instance. That analog test may be the nail in the coffin for that decoder now.

Dave...

Dave,
We've all done what you've done: nothing wrong.

It is frustrating not to find an obvious fault and searching to find a fault is also frustrating
I stick with my statement of being cautious and hopefully as Ray describes it, you will not be bitten twice.
When there is a distinctive disformation or discolouring on this electronic component, to me it looks a short or overcurrent has occured.
It may be the fault lay somewhere else, it may had nothing to do with the decoder, seing you cannot move the loco forward or backwards.
the original fault, may have had nothing to do with the decoder.
I have had many, many hours of "assuming" where the fault lied and realigning the silent Roco Slider without any results. It alsways stopped at the same spot (tunrout).Ive lifted the pukos up, I did this and that for hours, no result.
the culprit was a carriage (electrotren) further down the line and it shortened the circuit because of a wrong wheel gauge (double switch)

so to say it was always the decoder, is preempting your thoughts to one object.
You haven't clearly stated how you tested the analog version of events.
Was there an old tranformer involved ?
It is up to you and you only what you believe has been the cause for your loco not to work porperly.
All the suggestion have happened, whether or not they've happened in that order with your, loco has to be seen.

Good Luck and lets hope we'll have a "Hurray" post soon,

regards.,
John

I also have two small blue 10 VA transformers. Nominal reversing voltage is 23 V (while it's 24 V for most M* transformers). Volt meter shows 30 V when reversing.

I don't think that this reversing voltage can be harmful for the MOSFETs (as the motor is off when applying the reversing voltage).

Modern ESU decoders are specified for max. 28 V.

Well it appears that the Maxon DC motor #212527 or #256947 is also now faulty or was the cause of the problem in the first place. Motor won't run initially unless I assist it by helping the gear along with my finger. New board fitted & new Loksound decoder fitted. Can control speed of motor but not very well even if tweaked in the CV area to Maxon spec's. I now need to find either a new or used motor. This is not available from Marklin service dept. Red light against that item & huge price for whole assembly. Any ideas on this one would be greatly appreciated.

Dave...

Hello Tim, well that is a whole heap cheaper than Marklin who don't have any stock of this item. I definately give it a go. I tested the motor via a 9V smoke detector battery & once I got it running by tweaking the gear at the end of the motor. It runs with a rumble & vibration. I am truly very disappointed with Maxon DC motors. One would have expected better from the Swiss manufacturers. I also read on this forum how someone's "Mak" diesel locomotive motor seizing up to the point he could not turn the motor by hand & that too was a maxon motor. I say bring back the good old reliable Marklin motors that are affordable to replace if a problem occurs & not with a Euro 99,95 price tag.

Dave...

Tim, Gearbox looks all good to me. I will order that part from that dealer as soon as I worked out how to sign up.Are you a member of the Marklin club in Auckland there in Onehunga? I know a few over there into their Marklin.

Dave...

Interesting news... Thanks for posting this.

Owners of Mikado, BR05 streamlined, and BR59 should also be benefit from this development.

Can I say well done to somebody from the trade taking time to post here and give us an explanation.
Thank you.

David Dewar

Would it be fair to say the motor in question (BR 45) is not suited for model trains ?
It happened to me, although a different cause (not overloaded, e.g. blue Transformer)with a Märklin Red Arrrow (3125, 3126, 3127)(DC motor) and it was stopped unintentionally in front of another loco, it did'nt de-rail, so no short occured, the motor could'nt turn because it stood in one spot.

Ole

Hi Folks,

Couple of issues here..

Any motor will be damaged if it is stalled and too much current applied. I think we have an extreme case here because Dave's speed control FET had failed so I am assuming the motor saw a larger than normal current and or voltage.

I suspect the old style 'iron rotor motor' might be more robust, but then will have a limited number of poles, more friction etc etc and so the fine control will not be there.

I guess the issue is where does the 'serious' model market start and the 'toy' market end. The precision models perform better but are more delicate.

The EC motors are available in sizes which in theory would fit model loco's, the smallest catalogue EC motor 250101 is 6mm diameter. The issues would be

1) these motors tend to be long and thin, the 6mm motor is 21mm long. We do have some 'pancake style motors, EC 9.2 flat, which are more like a aero modeller motor, with an 'outrunner'. This motor is available as a 9.2 mm diameter, which is only 12.5mm long, rated 0.5W BUT because of the construction these motors have an element of 'cogging' ie torque ripple, which may not be ideal for a small train system. Having said that they do have a larger inertia because of the outrunner construction. The standard EC motors have no cogging effect. Basically the EC Flat motors are like an old school DC brushed motor, but the armature stays fixed and the magnet rotates around the outside. The armature winding are sequenced electronically and the outor rotor has 4 pole pairs in the case of the EC 9.2 flat pt no 370445.

2) You would need a sophisticated controller to get smooth motion at low speed. I am not familar with the Marklin Sinus motor, but it would be an EC (electronically commutated) type I would imagine. I assume Sinus refers to the controller which will use a pwm technique in conjuction with a micro controller to put a 3 phase sinusoidal current on the winding, thereby minimising torque ripple. You can drive these motors with square waves (block commutation) and they run, but the torque contains a ripple component, again not good for modellers.

You can see the products at http://www.maxonmotor.com.au

Cheers!

Hi,

I declared who I was in post #41.

No experience of electronics for model trains, sorry!

Jon Pippard
maxon motor AU

Hi,

That is very kind of you. Unfortunately I cannot say I am an expert on train motors, but I'm working on it!

Regards

Jon Pippard