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Gkar		#1 Posted : 06 November 2009 03:57:13(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 05/01/2008(UTC) Posts: 102 Location: Fairfax, VA		I believe this may have been asked before a while back, can one use M track for a digital system, ie, digital trains and, possibly, some way to digitally control the turnouts and such? thanks!
		"You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering."
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tekin65		#2 Posted : 06 November 2009 05:54:51(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 11/10/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,151 Location: istanbul,		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Gkar <br />I believe this may have been asked before a while back, can one use M track for a digital system, ie, digital trains and, possibly, some way to digitally control the turnouts and such? thanks! In principle; yes, you can. But in practise M tracks are not the best for modern locos. They are made to run on new C or K tracks, AFAIK tested on C tracks too. Most modern locos have fewer traction tires making it harder to grab the M track which have a slimmer contact surface. You'll have to add decoders to your switches. They are not made for this so modification required to install them. All in all, it is a cumbersome thing. My first layout was M but because of all these problems, I'm switching to C. Mind you that these are all my personal experiences, others might have different and positive things to say about M with digital. Cem.
		3 rail: C-track with CS2 2 rail: Trix C-track with Trix MS - K.Bay., DRG, DR, DB, SBB, TCDD Now all eras but no ICE My loco inventory for the interested
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Bigdaddynz		#3 Posted : 06 November 2009 06:22:35(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC) Posts: 18,663 Location: New Zealand		I made sure I used new or near new M track. I replaced a lot of older track with newer M track. I haven't had any problems with the new generation of locos, I even got the Big Boy to go around the layout, curved turnouts and all. Otherwise, the answer to the question is yes.
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tekin65		#4 Posted : 06 November 2009 06:24:41(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 11/10/2006(UTC) Posts: 2,151 Location: istanbul,		David hi, Just out of curiosity; how do you manage your switches? Have you installed decoders or do you use the good old blue boxes? Cem.
		3 rail: C-track with CS2 2 rail: Trix C-track with Trix MS - K.Bay., DRG, DR, DB, SBB, TCDD Now all eras but no ICE My loco inventory for the interested
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Bigdaddynz		#5 Posted : 06 November 2009 07:40:16(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC) Posts: 18,663 Location: New Zealand		Cem, I use the Viessmann 5211 decoders, which are similar to the Marklin K83, but with the added advantage of being able to be powered from a separate transformer.
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mvd71		#6 Posted : 06 November 2009 09:16:43(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC) Posts: 1,716 Location: Auckland,		I agree with Dave, so long as the track is in good condition it is no problem at all. There are many misconceptions about digital control, and the type of track is one of the misconceptions that many people have. Cheers.... Mike.
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Ian555		#7 Posted : 06 November 2009 09:32:49(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 04/06/2009(UTC) Posts: 20,240 Location: Scotland		Hi Randy. My new layout is being built using only M track. Most of it will be digital,with one section left as analogue,to run my older Loco's on. Ian.
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Gregor		#8 Posted : 06 November 2009 10:03:38(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 17/04/2003(UTC) Posts: 996 Location: Netherlands		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by tekin65 <br />Just out of curiosity; how do you manage your switches? Have you installed decoders or do you use the good old blue boxes? I manage the switches with k83's, which I could purchase cheap due to a large discount at a shop that gave up MRR and switched fully to remote controlled cars and planes. Elsewise I probably would have chosen Viessmann as well, just like Bigdaddy, for the same reason. For M-track, there is no decoder available to be used inside the switch itself, I believe C-track has that possibility. My modern loc's run flawlessly on the old M-track, I'm convinced that a well laid M-track is just as reliable as K or C. It just needs a bit more attention to lay it well, and sometimes needs some correction with plyers at the rail ends to make all transitions smooth. Digital operation is not an issue at all on M-track. Good luck & have fun, Gregor
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hxmiesa		#9 Posted : 06 November 2009 10:17:31(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,520 Location: Spain		The uneven (and older) M-track can easily be adjusted with a hammer. Works like a charm! ;-) -And bad conduction of power can be helped with additional power-feeds. But... The MAIN problem with M-track (IMHO) is the difficulties in making detection-tracks; Isolate one side of the rail, and use it to switch funtions. -Or in the digital world to connect to the S88´s. Even in my analog layout this is a big problem with M-track. (-and NO; the "schalt-gleise" is not an option!)
		Best regards Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain") http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
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H0		#10 Posted : 06 November 2009 10:18:30(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,262 Location: DE-NW		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by tekin65 <br />You'll have to add decoders to your switches. They are not made for this so modification required to install them. As mentioned you can use external k83 decoders for M track switches - no problem for a permanent layout and cheaper anyway. Switch decoders that can be installed in a switch are nice for floor layouts, but are more expensive.
		Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Bigdaddynz		#11 Posted : 06 November 2009 10:25:39(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC) Posts: 18,663 Location: New Zealand		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Gregor <br />For M-track, there is no decoder available to be used inside the switch itself.... Not quite correct. There are no commercial decoders that fit inside M track switches AFAIK. There is a DIY decoder design for M track switches made by Dr Konig (http://home.arcor.de/dr.koenig/digital/eweichde.htm). The problem with those will be trying to obtain the Motorola chip, if you can still get it, that is.
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Gregor		#12 Posted : 06 November 2009 12:28:39(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 17/04/2003(UTC) Posts: 996 Location: Netherlands		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by hxmiesa <br />But... The MAIN problem with M-track (IMHO) is the difficulties in making detection-tracks; Isolate one side of the rail, and use it to switch funtions. -Or in the digital world to connect to the S88´s. Even in my analog layout this is a big problem with M-track. (-and NO; the "schalt-gleise" is not an option!) The old predecessor of the schalt-gleise had an isolated section. In my previous (analog) layout, I used many of them and also made them myself. (See last post in https://www.marklin-user...lt.aspx?g=posts&t=1114). Now in my digital layout I use current detection of the central rail, connected to the S88. Schematic is also in the linked thread. Best regards, Gregor
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Gkar		#13 Posted : 06 November 2009 15:35:15(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 05/01/2008(UTC) Posts: 102 Location: Fairfax, VA		Thanks, everyone, so much for your help, I am looking to put together with my son a nice christmas layout that would be permanent/work-in-progress and have a large selection of M track with turnouts, bridges, lights, etc. much more goodies than I have with C or K track, although they probably would be a more preferred track!
		"You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering."
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Soest		#14 Posted : 06 November 2009 18:16:13(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 05/09/2009(UTC) Posts: 201 Location: Ottawa, Ontario		I used M track to extend my C track layout. This requires the C adaption tracks but it worked quite well. I used manual M turnouts. cheers
		Why do grown men play with trains? Their wives insist they are insane But their dreams they won't let down the drain 'Cause there ain't no thing so hard to lose as those disappearing railway blues.
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Tex		#15 Posted : 07 November 2009 00:21:36(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 30/01/2004(UTC) Posts: 276 Location: Houston, Texas		I am building a large digital layout with M track and 6021 control unit and keyboard units. Tests with train control are good with both new and old engines. One problem is that the k83 decoders do not have enough " kick " for double slip switches but work well for other M turnouts. Have install some 7039 semaphore signals but am soon to test a 76391 light signal . Has anyone any experence with these on M track. Tex
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Dreadnought		#16 Posted : 07 November 2009 05:19:15(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 24/12/2008(UTC) Posts: 418 Location: Niagara, Ontario		I have been experimenting with the digital Ms on my old M track layout for the last three months. My switches are all manual. I think it depends on the locomotive. Some have no problem and are a delight. Others seem more sensitive, and have certain pieces of track they dislike where the go dead. They then need a push with the "0 5 0". Bit by bit I am replacing the "dead" track with newer M track. The curved switches seem to derail some locomotives. I am considering doing away with curved switches. Double slip switches are not a problem. Three way ones seem to be dead spots though do not derail. Old switches from the late 1950's, (my originals), do not seem to be a problem.
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LionelMPC		#17 Posted : 08 November 2009 01:40:52(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 03/05/2005(UTC) Posts: 212 Location: Washington state, USA		My layout I'm building is also all M track, controlled with a 6021. I had a few spots here or there that acted up, but a little tweaking and replacing a few pieces and everything seems to work well now. I originally had a double slip in my plan, but after finding all of my small locos stalled on it I removed it. No problems with any of my curved turnouts, and I have no experience with the 3 way. I had a couple of spots where the rails didn't join at the same height, and if a hammer didn't work, I filed it down slightly so that they lined up and it solved my problem. -James
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Gkar		#18 Posted : 08 November 2009 02:46:12(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 05/01/2008(UTC) Posts: 102 Location: Fairfax, VA		as far as using M turnouts, how would one control them? got the wires coming out, route them to a blue box, or is there a better control method? thanks
		"You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering."
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H0		#19 Posted : 08 November 2009 12:46:39(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,262 Location: DE-NW		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Gkar <br />got the wires coming out, route them to a blue box, or is there a better control method? You can use a k83 turnout decoder to control them digitally. Not a "better method", but a different method. One method for automatic layout operation.
		Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Dreadnought		#20 Posted : 18 November 2009 05:05:54(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 24/12/2008(UTC) Posts: 418 Location: Niagara, Ontario		I just got my CS 2. At the same time I did away with curved switches, except on some dead end sidings. With the more powerful transformer, part of the CS 2 purchase, dead spots sem to have been eliminated. I have also replaced some of the older tracks where locomotives hesitated. The 610 pendolino now breaks the sound barrier. I am glad of the Marklin deep flanges. In short M track seems to work very well in digital. The balance of the roster is in to be converted to digital. I may splurge and have some of them given sound too. I am a convert. Now to build a small analog layout to run some old favourites I do not want to convert.
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Brakeman		#21 Posted : 18 November 2009 05:34:52(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 14/04/2006(UTC) Posts: 298 Location: Southern California		Randy, if you already have bunch of M track, don't wait. Get working on your holiday layout this weekend, you and your son will have a lot of fun. Our holiday layout lasted until June, when we needed to pack it for moving. We run digital locos mostly on M track with two Mobile Stations and control the swithes with "blue boxes". BR, Juha http://share.ovi.com/users/brakeman
		Era III DB & US Southwest transition era. http://www.etesocal.org/ https://www.youtube.com/user/BrakemanHO/videos
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tworail		#22 Posted : 18 November 2009 06:26:50(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 01/03/2007(UTC) Posts: 241 Location: Ontario, Canada		I am planning on running newer digital trains on my M track layout with 6021 as well(under construction) but doing the following: Putting as many feeder tracks and isolation as possible for different sections of the layout. Having enough transformers/power ie powering switches from separate transformer. Using as new as possible M tracks, or only very good condition 5200 series switches only with small lantern screwing the track down and ensure connections between joiners, tabs are as best as possible. Cleaning all M track of any oil residues with a brush and alcohol. Test, test, test :)
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ksor		#23 Posted : 19 November 2009 10:27:31(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 03/01/2005(UTC) Posts: 58 Location: Århus V,		--> tworail "screwing the track down and ensure connections between joiners, tabs are as best as possible" to be sure digital power is on every single peace of track you could solder wires to "every single peace" and connect them to a common feed cable - I (nearly) do it this way in my layout (I have wires soldered to every 3 peace of M-track) and it works very well. With a good solder you CAN solder wires to M-tracks ! I had some very rusty M-tracks and I did clean them by sanding with very fine "sanding paper" (I don't know if it's the right term !) and they are as good as the new ones I have. My turn outs I have cleaned with "methyl-alcohol" and to dry them I use compressed air - they are shifting as new ones - the 5128-crossing is too ! No problems combining "running digital" and M-tracks in my point of view.
		KSor, Denmark
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Ian555		#24 Posted : 19 November 2009 10:54:57(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 04/06/2009(UTC) Posts: 20,240 Location: Scotland		Hi all I'm also building my new layout using only M track.As said before, lots of feeder tracks,taking care when laying tracks,carefully check all track pieces before fitting them. This brings me on to another question,bought myself a mobile station, 60va transformer and C track "ugly box" connector.(more from e-bay). How do I connect this up to my M track without using the C track box? Thanks. Ian.
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Bigdaddynz		#25 Posted : 19 November 2009 11:02:09(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC) Posts: 18,663 Location: New Zealand		Ian, you can't, unless you buy the 60111 connector box. To use the ugly box, plug the MS and transformer into it. Take the red and brown wires off from underneath the track of the ugly box and connect to your M track feeder piece in the normal way.
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Ian555		#26 Posted : 19 November 2009 11:35:31(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 04/06/2009(UTC) Posts: 20,240 Location: Scotland		Hi David, I do not have the parts deliverd yet,so I can just do away with the ugly box and section of track and connect directly to M track,or keep the box and connect that to M track? Thanks for your help. Ian.
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Bigdaddynz		#27 Posted : 19 November 2009 11:55:41(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC) Posts: 18,663 Location: New Zealand		You need to connect the ugly box to the M track. As I say, take the brown and red wires from the terminals underneath the ugly box rails, and connect those to your M track feeder piece.
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Ian555		#28 Posted : 19 November 2009 12:28:20(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 04/06/2009(UTC) Posts: 20,240 Location: Scotland		Hi David, Thanks,I'm sure when I get the parts in front of me it will make more sense.Will let you know how I get on. Ian.
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Bigdaddynz		#29 Posted : 19 November 2009 12:36:12(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC) Posts: 18,663 Location: New Zealand		Ian, on underneath every piece of C track there are two terminals, one for a red connection, the other for a brown connection. This means that every piece of C track can be used as a feeder track. These terminals are also underneath the piece of C track that the ugly box is mounted to. You can take wires from those terminals to your M track, the ugly box basically becomes a converter that allows you to hook a MS to M track.
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Ian555		#30 Posted : 19 November 2009 12:55:54(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 04/06/2009(UTC) Posts: 20,240 Location: Scotland		Hi David, Hopefully it will arrive in the post tomorrow (Friday).I'll see if I can connect it up then. Thanks. Ian.
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tworail		#31 Posted : 19 November 2009 17:25:20(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 01/03/2007(UTC) Posts: 241 Location: Ontario, Canada		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by ksor to be sure digital power is on every single peace of track you could solder wires to "every single piece" and connect them to a common feed cable - I (nearly) do it this way in my layout (I have wires soldered to every 3 peace of M-track) and it works very well. With a good solder you CAN solder wires to M-tracks ! This is a very good idea, thanks. I might just have the patience to do it :)
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Gkar		#32 Posted : 19 November 2009 20:57:42(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 05/01/2008(UTC) Posts: 102 Location: Fairfax, VA		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Brakeman <br />Randy, if you already have bunch of M track, don't wait. Get working on your holiday layout this weekend, you and your son will have a lot of fun. Our holiday layout lasted until June, when we needed to pack it for moving. We run digital locos mostly on M track with two Mobile Stations and control the swithes with "blue boxes". BR, Juha http://share.ovi.com/users/brakeman Thanks, Juha, for the encouragement! After our holiday Thanksgiving, Michael and myself will get right to work!
		"You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering."
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Bigdaddynz		#33 Posted : 19 November 2009 22:25:20(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC) Posts: 18,663 Location: New Zealand		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by tworail <br /> Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by ksor to be sure digital power is on every single peace of track you could solder wires to "every single piece" and connect them to a common feed cable - I (nearly) do it this way in my layout (I have wires soldered to every 3 peace of M-track) and it works very well. With a good solder you CAN solder wires to M-tracks ! This is a very good idea, thanks. I might just have the patience to do it :) I know a few people who recommended you do this.
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Ian555		#34 Posted : 20 November 2009 11:53:12(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 04/06/2009(UTC) Posts: 20,240 Location: Scotland		Hi David, Got the starter parts this morning.Had look at the C track with the red and brown wires.Will just connect them to my M track. Thanks again for your help. Ian.
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Bigdaddynz		#35 Posted : 20 November 2009 12:40:13(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC) Posts: 18,663 Location: New Zealand		Good one Ian! Make sure you don't have any capacitors in your feeder tracks as they are not required for digital use (only analog use). They can interfere with the digital signal.
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Dreadnought		#36 Posted : 22 November 2009 05:15:48(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 24/12/2008(UTC) Posts: 418 Location: Niagara, Ontario		I have divided my M track digital into 25 different blocks. I use the 72740 control box. With my old tin plate cars, and home made wired 7077 kighting I have lots of shorts. This way I can isolate where the problem is and fix it The track and switches work very well now that I have the more powerful60052 transformer.
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hxmiesa		#37 Posted : 23 November 2009 17:44:39(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,520 Location: Spain		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Gregor (See last post in https://www.marklin-user...ult.aspx?g=posts&t=1114) Thanks! It is interessting. The track-sections I need (14 of them) spans 3 track-sections, but your solution might work... At least nothing would be lost trying ;-) (Ooops, my Dremel died a couple of weeks ago...)
		Best regards Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain") http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
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disavelo		#38 Posted : 22 December 2009 13:46:53(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 20/07/2007(UTC) Posts: 25 Location: Herning, Denmark		I use M-tracks for digital train running without problems. Concerning turnouts (Weichen) I have installed original Märklin K73 decoders in a few (they fit perfectly and are quite easy to install) but mostly I use the external Märklin K83 decoder. Best regards. Søren
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TheVoid		#39 Posted : 21 December 2012 18:57:24(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/12/2012(UTC) Posts: 35 Location: Lisboa		Originally Posted by: Bigdaddynz Not quite correct. There are no commercial decoders that fit inside M track switches AFAIK. There is a DIY decoder design for M track switches made by Dr Konig (http://home.arcor.de/dr.koenig/digital/eweichde.htm). The problem with those will be trying to obtain the Motorola chip, if you can still get it, that is. Has anyone used the Dr Konig decoders recently? Would those work with any controler? Thanks Void
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H0		#40 Posted : 21 December 2012 19:18:36(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,262 Location: DE-NW		Originally Posted by: TheVoid Would those work with any controler? Dr. König's decoders should work with any controller that uses the MM protocol for turnouts (MS2, CS1, CS2, ECoS, IB - and probably several others, too).
		Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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TheVoid		#41 Posted : 21 December 2012 19:34:58(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/12/2012(UTC) Posts: 35 Location: Lisboa		Originally Posted by: H0 Dr. König's decoders should work with any controller that uses the MM protocol for turnouts (MS2, CS1, CS2, ECoS, IB - and probably several others, too). Thanks Tom I'm still considering the options. M Track is much cheaper but I would need to build and install the Dr. König decoders. I'm not sure if the cost is worth it. Maybe I should stick with C track.
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H0		#42 Posted : 21 December 2012 20:22:59(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,262 Location: DE-NW		For permanent layouts, the k83 decoders can be used. So it makes a difference for floor layouts only (and M track is no good choice for floor layouts when there are pets or children around). k83s can also be used for floor layouts, but the wiring is somewhat impractical.
		Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Yumgui		#43 Posted : 21 December 2012 20:56:37(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 20/03/2011(UTC) Posts: 1,660 Location: Paris, France		Great thread ! (just found) Concerning general "bus" wiring for a 3 track M-track layout planned in anticipation to go from analog to digital while recycling old transformers, here is one solution (which I'm still testing ...), proposed by Tim Eckert : see pics below ... Any feedback on this from one and all would certainly be helpful ... ^^ Y Yumgui attached the following image(s):
		If your M track is rusted ... DON'T throw it out ! Working on: https://studiogang.com/projects/all My heavy train station renovation: https://youtu.be/QQlyNiq416A Inspired by: http://www.nakedmarklin.com/... Am not alone in this universe, phew.
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TheVoid		#44 Posted : 23 December 2012 03:44:52(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/12/2012(UTC) Posts: 35 Location: Lisboa		The k83 decoders sound simpler. Maybe I can find a way to build them :) If I had the money I wouldn't bother.
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H0		#45 Posted : 23 December 2012 06:17:19(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC) Posts: 15,262 Location: DE-NW		Originally Posted by: TheVoid Maybe I can find a way to build them :) You can buy them as PCB plus parts or assembled PCBs. Check the prices for Viessmann 52111 (16 through 22 Euro for 4 turnouts). DIY can hardly be cheaper.
		Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Nielsenr		#46 Posted : 23 December 2012 08:06:16(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 06/10/2010(UTC) Posts: 883 Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL		Also check LDT for K83 and K84 kits as well as others ... Merry Christmas!! Robert
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