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Offline gachar001  
#1 Posted : 09 May 2008 04:00:41(UTC)
gachar001

India   
Joined: 29/04/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,391
Location: Chennai
Hello,
I am relatively new to this forum. I have to thank you all since I learnt so much here.

I am trying to install LED light strips in my cars. I use a Mobile Station.

I purchased the LED strips from trainaidsa.com and the rest of the hardware is Marklin. The LED strips from trainaidsa.com were significantly cheaper ($3 vs $13 for a marklin strip).
When I connect the LED strips to my car, there is significant flickering accompanied with a sight buzzing noise (there is also a lot of heat). This does not happen when I connect the strip directly to the transformer (the flickering is barely noticable when connected to the transformer directly). I tried multiple strips with the same results.

The LED strips are actually rated for use with 12V DC but the owner of trainaidsa, Adarsh, assured me that these strips can work on 16V AC without modification since many of his customers do so successfully.

Has anyone experienced this? Any solutions?
Will the same happen if I use Marklin LED strips?
Thanks in advance.

Gautham
Gautham
Atlanta, GA USA
Offline rschaffr  
#2 Posted : 09 May 2008 04:48:04(UTC)
rschaffr

United States   
Joined: 03/01/2003(UTC)
Posts: 5,193
Location: Southern New Jersey, USA
Gautham: The digital signal on the track is actually 22-24 volts, I believe and not really AC, but more of a digital square wave. You would need to add a current limiting resistor to the light strip to reduce the voltage.
-Ron
Digital, Epoch IV-V(K-track/CS3/6021Connect/60216051), Epoch III(C-track/6021/6036/6051)
http://www.sem-co.com/~rschaffr/trains/trains.html
Offline Lars Westerlind  
#3 Posted : 09 May 2008 10:05:23(UTC)
Lars Westerlind


Joined: 19/10/2001(UTC)
Posts: 2,379
Location: Lindome, Sweden
Yes, my fist note too. buzzing noise and heat is not normal; I guess it is caused by excess voltage.
The flickering though is normal and caused by the track power variations when there is a digital signal. Could be eliminated with a bridge rectififier, or a decoder, or a simpler rectifier with a larger capacitatator. A function decoder is a good idea anyway; as the digital signal is always on, you would want to be able to shut off the light of you car anyway.

/Lars
Offline mmervine  
#4 Posted : 09 May 2008 17:03:56(UTC)
mmervine

United States   
Joined: 30/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,894
Location: Keene, NH
I would add the full wave rectifier that this site sells. That should help with the flickering.

r/mark
Märklin C-track, Marklin Digital & ECoS, multi-era French & Swiss
http://www.ete-ene.org/m...mervines-layout-gallery/
Offline gachar001  
#5 Posted : 09 May 2008 18:15:17(UTC)
gachar001

India   
Joined: 29/04/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,391
Location: Chennai
Thanks for the info.
I have a few questions.
1. Does this flickering occur even with Marklin strips? (the flickering that I am experiencing is real intense and extremely noticeable accompanied with a slight humming sound)
2. Will adding just a resistor eliminate the flickering or do I need a capacitor too? What value of resistor and capicators would be needed?
3. At this point I do not want to add a decoder since I do not have the expertise and want to avoid spending the money.

Thanks again.
Gautham
Atlanta, GA USA
Offline gachar001  
#6 Posted : 09 May 2008 18:22:51(UTC)
gachar001

India   
Joined: 29/04/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,391
Location: Chennai
Where can I find the full wave rectifier to buy? I tried searching through the forum and didn't find it.
Gautham
Atlanta, GA USA
Offline DaleSchultz  
#7 Posted : 09 May 2008 18:38:44(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
I think Mark meant to say that his site sells, not this site sells...
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline rschaffr  
#8 Posted : 09 May 2008 18:39:54(UTC)
rschaffr

United States   
Joined: 03/01/2003(UTC)
Posts: 5,193
Location: Southern New Jersey, USA
I recently installed some Marklin 73400's in some coaches, and I don't notice flickering. I did not look at the strips to see if they have a full wave rectifier on them. The Viessmann strips, which I usually use, do have one. I don't know where you are located, Gautham, but Radio Shack carries full wave rectifiers, or you can build one with four diodes. Even with that, unless you add some capacitance you will still see some flicker.

You might want to put at least your country on your profile so we know where you live.
-Ron
Digital, Epoch IV-V(K-track/CS3/6021Connect/60216051), Epoch III(C-track/6021/6036/6051)
http://www.sem-co.com/~rschaffr/trains/trains.html
Offline DaleSchultz  
#9 Posted : 09 May 2008 19:02:36(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
note that rectifying the current will increase the effective voltage...... by a factor of 1.4

I do not believe that 12V LEDs can be driven by rectified digital power without a 12V regulator
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline rschaffr  
#10 Posted : 09 May 2008 19:20:47(UTC)
rschaffr

United States   
Joined: 03/01/2003(UTC)
Posts: 5,193
Location: Southern New Jersey, USA
Dale: Good point about the effective voltage. Given the known configuration, you can modify the effective voltage with choice of resistors rather than a regulator. It will take some experimentation, though. Not knowing how many LED's his light strip has and how they are configured (parallel of series) I can't make a resistor value recommendation.
-Ron
Digital, Epoch IV-V(K-track/CS3/6021Connect/60216051), Epoch III(C-track/6021/6036/6051)
http://www.sem-co.com/~rschaffr/trains/trains.html
Offline Lars Westerlind  
#11 Posted : 09 May 2008 21:00:22(UTC)
Lars Westerlind


Joined: 19/10/2001(UTC)
Posts: 2,379
Location: Lindome, Sweden
To be clear: rectifying itself doesn't increase the effective voltage in this case, as the input is square, not sinusoidal. However, the power will be on for the whole time instead of half; double heat dissiapation correcponds to a increase of the effective voltage with 1.4 V. But I don't know if it's heat or voltage which is the limiting factor; in the latter case the increase doesn't apply.

/Lars
Offline DaleSchultz  
#12 Posted : 09 May 2008 22:02:25(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
well, I just went and measured the voltage of the output of a bridge rectifier connected to my rail digital signal.

I get 27V DC

I used a digital meter.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline dntower85  
#13 Posted : 09 May 2008 22:12:18(UTC)
dntower85

United States   
Joined: 08/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,218
Location: Shady Shores, TX - USA
I have plans to put the flicker to good use, on one of my fist class passenger cars, I'm going to back light a mini movie screen with a bright white LED. Sure the fake passengers will have to watch the same fame of the movie but I think it will be a good effect. And all it takes is a cheep diode and a 680 ohm resister (I think that is the correct ohm but it could of been 480) and a left over sheet of velum run through the ink jet printer.
DT
Now powered by ECoS II unit#2, RocRail
era - some time in the future when the space time continuum is disrupted and ICE 3 Trains run on the same rails as the Adler and BR18's.
Offline DaleSchultz  
#14 Posted : 09 May 2008 22:16:07(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
the LED strips from adarsh are sequences of 3 LEDs each triple having a 161 Ohm resistor
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline gachar001  
#15 Posted : 09 May 2008 22:32:09(UTC)
gachar001

India   
Joined: 29/04/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,391
Location: Chennai
I am in the USA. Added more info to my profile.
Here is more info on the strip.
Length: 10cm / 4 in ( 10.75 incl. connectors). Width: 8mm (0.32 in). Designed Power: 12v. Max. Forward Current: 60mA (Reduce for voltages higher than 12v) | Max. Normal Current: 40mA | Max. Reverse Voltage: 10v
Picture can be seen here at http://www.trainaidsa.com/shop-leds.html
- Look for S12 lighting strip.
trainaidsa.com suggest I first install a rectifier and resistor to see if it improves things.
I have ordered rectifiers (Not sure if it is full wave. Here are the specs - RoHS: RoHS Compliant by Exemption | Max Surge Current: 35 A | Power Dissipation: 1.4 W
Termination Style: SMD/SMT | Max Voltage Drop: 1 V | Forward Surge Current: 35 A
Forward Voltage: 1 V | Forward Continuous Current: 0.5 A | Reverse Voltage: 600 V)
and resistors (620 Ohm 0.25w)
Gautham
Atlanta, GA USA
Offline rschaffr  
#16 Posted : 09 May 2008 22:55:24(UTC)
rschaffr

United States   
Joined: 03/01/2003(UTC)
Posts: 5,193
Location: Southern New Jersey, USA
Ok, assuming 27v from the bridge and a load of 40ma (two strings of 20ma in parallel) I get a need for a 375 ohm resistor on the bridge output (dropping 15 volts for a 40ma load)
-Ron
Digital, Epoch IV-V(K-track/CS3/6021Connect/60216051), Epoch III(C-track/6021/6036/6051)
http://www.sem-co.com/~rschaffr/trains/trains.html
Offline intruder  
#17 Posted : 10 May 2008 00:15:06(UTC)
intruder

Norway   
Joined: 16/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 5,382
Location: Akershus, Norway
Please remember that the resistor may get very warm.
Best regards Svein, Norway
grumpy old sod
Offline rschaffr  
#18 Posted : 10 May 2008 00:42:38(UTC)
rschaffr

United States   
Joined: 03/01/2003(UTC)
Posts: 5,193
Location: Southern New Jersey, USA
Yes, actually for that app you need a 1/2 watt resistor.
-Ron
Digital, Epoch IV-V(K-track/CS3/6021Connect/60216051), Epoch III(C-track/6021/6036/6051)
http://www.sem-co.com/~rschaffr/trains/trains.html
Offline David Dewar  
#19 Posted : 10 May 2008 00:54:24(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,466
Location: Scotland
I would go for a decoder in one of the coaches. Not only does it solve the problem but the lights can be turned off and on. Regarding cost Uhlenbrock make one which is not expensive and does the job very well. (please send the usual commission Lars biggrin)

David
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
Offline gachar001  
#20 Posted : 13 May 2008 20:44:59(UTC)
gachar001

India   
Joined: 29/04/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,391
Location: Chennai
I received the full wave rectifiers and resistors from trainaidsa.com. Connecting the rectifier eliminated the flicker (it is not noticable at all). With just the rectifier, the lights are too bright and the LED strip gets extremely hot. Adding the 620 Ohm resistor dims the light (maybe a little too dim for cars with heavily tinted windows) but the LED strip remains cool. I will experiment with slightly lower resistance to get the appropriate brightness.

David,
Please tell me more about the Uhlenbrock decoders. Where can I purchase it in the US? Is this the one you are talking about?
http://www.dcctrain.com/shop/item.asp?itemid=1650

How do you install/program it. Do I need a 6021 or CC (I only have a MS).
How are the connections made?

Thanks
Gautham
Atlanta, GA USA
Offline David Dewar  
#21 Posted : 13 May 2008 21:45:58(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,466
Location: Scotland
Best thing is to call at your dealers and ask for the correct decoder. The one I use is the 73900 (could be wrong as i dont have any boxes etc)
If you use the Marklin 73400 then you should not have a problem. Have the first car with the pickup and ground and use the current conducting couplers to the other cars which only need a ground contact.
Wiring for a function decoder is one wire to the pickup shoe and one to the ground then two wires to the light bar. I use a CS but presume a funtion decoder will work with a MS.
Some light bars may be cheaper but the 73400 will work without flickering.
All of the items come with instructions.

David
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
Offline DaleSchultz  
#22 Posted : 14 May 2008 00:54:02(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline mmervine  
#23 Posted : 18 May 2008 16:45:05(UTC)
mmervine

United States   
Joined: 30/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,894
Location: Keene, NH
Gautham:

How about posting a picture of the installation. These lights are a good value if they work well with the rectifier/resister installation.

r/mark
Märklin C-track, Marklin Digital & ECoS, multi-era French & Swiss
http://www.ete-ene.org/m...mervines-layout-gallery/
Offline gachar001  
#24 Posted : 19 May 2008 19:42:55(UTC)
gachar001

India   
Joined: 29/04/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,391
Location: Chennai
Mark,
Not sure how to post images here since I am relatively new.

I installed these LED strips on 2 sets of cars so far. They work great. Installation is not as straightforward as if you use Marklin LED strips since soldering is required and you need to use double sided tape to attach the strips to the roof of the cars. It will also take you some time to tuck the wires out of sight.
I used 2 trainaidsa.com S12 warm white LED strips/car ($3 per strip), one trainaidsa.com ACW connector with full wave rectifier built in ($1 each. I had to remove the plastic casing from the connector for a tighter fit to the LED strip) per car and one 470 Ohm, 0.25W resistor (from Radio Shack) on the 1st car with the pickup shoe.
I had to use the resistor since the LED was too bright and was heating up without it. If you want dimmer lights, you can use a 620 Ohm, 0.25W resistor.
I would like to add a capacitor since I am seeing a slight flicker on one section of my track. However, I need to find out the specifications of the capoacitor and wiring details to add the capacitor.
I can send you a diagram of my wiring if you like.
Gautham
Atlanta, GA USA
Offline DaleSchultz  
#25 Posted : 19 May 2008 20:06:03(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
note that a 0.25W resistor is insufficient geven its load.. you need 1/2 Watt according to Ron's post above.
Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline mmervine  
#26 Posted : 29 September 2008 23:27:10(UTC)
mmervine

United States   
Joined: 30/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,894
Location: Keene, NH
He is now selling 180 ohm 2w resisters to go with his lighting strips. Ron you calculated a higher value. It seems like 180 ohm will do the trick if there is one rectifier/resister per pair of lighting strips? Or...should we use two 180 ohm resisters in series? It seems like it would be easiest to put the resister in the power feed before the rectifier?
Märklin C-track, Marklin Digital & ECoS, multi-era French & Swiss
http://www.ete-ene.org/m...mervines-layout-gallery/
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