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Offline Peter Neumann  
#1 Posted : 01 December 2003 05:48:57(UTC)
Peter Neumann

United States   
Joined: 18/12/2002(UTC)
Posts: 251
Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana
Your help is needed!!!!

Where can one find instructions on stepping down voltages if I want to use individual small LEDs instead of the plastic light leaders and light bulbs in engines? I know that I have to first pick the right size, but also have to reduce the voltage (?) with resistors? I am really stupid when it comes to electronics but I love kitbashing engines and experiment.

Your help is needed - and appreciated!

Peter "Stupid" [8]Neumann
Florida
Offline perz  
#2 Posted : 01 December 2003 19:59:05(UTC)
perz

Sweden   
Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC)
Posts: 2,578
Location: Sweden
You need a resistor in series with the LED. LEDs, like other diodes, have an almost constant voltage across them, over a very wide current range. For a typical LED this is around 1.2 V. The function voltage of the decoder is around 20 V, so the rest of the voltage must be over the resistor.

It is the current through the LED that makes it light. A typical LED is specified for 20 mA max. Since the LED and the resistor is connected in series, the same current flows through the resistor and the LED. The current through the resistor can be calculated by Ohms law:

resistance = voltage/current

We have 20 V - 1.2 V = 18.8 V over the resistor and the current should be 20 mA => resistance = 18.8 V/0.02 A = 940 Ohm. This is the minimum value. You can have a higher resistor value, but the light will be proportionally weaker.

Resistors come in standard values. The closest standard value is 1000 Ohm (1 kOhm), so that's what I would recommend.

Another thing to take into account is the power dissipated in the resistor. Power = voltage * current. In this case 18.8 V * 0.02 A = 0.376 W. This means that your resistor should be rated for at least that power.

You can connect several LEDs with the same resistor. The resistor value just changes slightly. In the case with three LEDs, you will get a resistor minimum value of 820 Ohm.

UserPostedImage
Offline hqstu  
#3 Posted : 02 December 2003 12:47:20(UTC)
hqstu

New Zealand   
Joined: 12/04/2002(UTC)
Posts: 429
Location: Hamilton, New Zealand
Hi Perz, All,

A question then about lighting up passenger wagons. Would it be better to put LED's in series or parallel? I could see that in series would require a lower (or no) resistance, and parallel would require a resistance with a high wattage rating ?

With series, could you wire up say 20v/1.2v = 16 LED's just drawing 20 milliamps, with no resistor?

With parallel, 16 LED's would use 16x20 = 320 milliamps x 20v = 6.4VA That would need a pretty big resistor ? 320 milliamps is also higher than a function output.

Could you use say 2x series of 16 LED's, drawing 40 milliamps of the function?

Am I correct with my workings, or just talking c*@# ?
Cheers

Stuart
New Zealand
Offline perz  
#4 Posted : 02 December 2003 14:28:34(UTC)
perz

Sweden   
Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC)
Posts: 2,578
Location: Sweden
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Would it be better to put LED's in series or parallel?

You should not put two or more LEDs in parallel with just one resistor. The current is likely to be split unevenly between the LEDs.

You can put several LEDs in series, but you can not leave the resistor out. I think you should not use more than around half the voltage over the LEDs and the rest over the resistor, to get a reasonably stable current. Eight LEDs in series with a 500 Ohm resistor (or 560 Ohm, which is the nearest higher standard value) would be OK for digital operation, but the LEDs would then not light at all at low speed in AC operation.
Offline Peter Neumann  
#5 Posted : 04 December 2003 05:01:53(UTC)
Peter Neumann

United States   
Joined: 18/12/2002(UTC)
Posts: 251
Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana
Thanks to the input above - and some advice from our good engineers at the television station where I work, I now know much more about LEDs, wiring and necessary resistance. However, I am having trouble locating 2mm LEDs and I have scoured the usual domestic US catalog people, including Radio Shack and Newark.

Also: what light intensity (lumens) is apprioriate for engine headlights? There are many varieties of LEDs out there...

Thank you for your advice, again.

Peter Neumann
Florida




Offline kgsjoqvist  
#6 Posted : 11 December 2003 10:44:03(UTC)
kgsjoqvist

Sweden   
Joined: 04/06/2002(UTC)
Posts: 754
Location: Täby
[:0]Another thing to remember about LED:s is that they don't like alternate current (so what are they doing in the Märklin world?). If you feed them with AC, the current can only pass one way (just like any diode), but there is a risk of breaking the LED when the current runs in the opposite direction. So to be safe you can either use a diode in series with the LED or connect two LED:s in paralell - but opposite directions.

/K-G
K-G / H0 and Z model train user
Offline perz  
#7 Posted : 15 December 2003 10:37:26(UTC)
perz

Sweden   
Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC)
Posts: 2,578
Location: Sweden
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by kgsjoqvist
<br />[:0]Another thing to remember about LED:s is that they don't like alternate current (so what are they doing in the Märklin world?). If you feed them with AC, the current can only pass one way (just like any diode), but there is a risk of breaking the LED when the current runs in the opposite direction. So to be safe you can either use a diode in series with the LED or connect two LED:s in paralell - but opposite directions.

/K-G


Yes, that is right, but it is not a problem with LEDs fed from the function output of a digital decoder. The function outputs supply DC, no matter if it is operated with AC or in digital mode.

If fed directly from the track, LEDs will need a diode, as K-G suggests. Even better is to use a diode bridge. LEDs are very fast compared to light bulbs, and the 50 or 60 Hz flickering can be quite noticeable. Also, if you run the LEDs directly from the track in digital operation and just use one protection diode, you will get flickering lights because the positive and negative parts of the digital signal aren't perfectly balanced. A diode bridge will solve that problem.
Offline Noel Loganathan  
#8 Posted : 15 December 2003 11:42:27(UTC)
Noel Loganathan


Joined: 12/07/2003(UTC)
Posts: 297
Location: Brisbane, QLD
In the last issuse of the Insider, pages 26-31, the article explains the use of the c96 decoder for the purposes of lighting carriages, more like sets of.

The chapter compares, inter alia, the merits and demerrits of LEDs for lighting carriages.

When we did some conversions using LEDs it did not look prototypical. Hence the LEDs were replaced by the M's preferred lighting sets and they look good and does not give the focussed 'yellow'.

We used Dick Smith's relay and it works pretty good.

Perhaps the LEDs can be put to other uses.

Mate, no flickering - you can bet on this.


Cheers

Noel
Noel
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