Welcome to the forum   
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Share
Options
View
Go to last post in this topic Go to first unread post in this topic
Offline xxup  
#1 Posted : 12 October 2003 13:48:27(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 8,944
Location: Australia
Hello,

Robyn has completed a preliminary design for her garden railway, but it includes a reverse loop.

The manual (user guide) that came with the set shows how to wire the loop using a relay so that it does not short when returning to the mainline through the turnout (we don't own one of these yet)..

Does the approach shown in the manual work with delta and digital?

How does the relay trip so that the track polarity is reversed??

As you can see I have been spoilt by the three rail HO.. This is much harder...

Adrian
Adrian
UserPostedImage
Australia flag by abFlags.com
Offline Webmaster  
#2 Posted : 13 October 2003 01:11:06(UTC)
Webmaster


Joined: 25/07/2001(UTC)
Posts: 10,846
I myself am so spoiled by the Märklin centre rail system so I have never even contemplated the problem as existing in "my little world"... That problem is for the "other guys"...wink

However, would it be possible to scan the schematics and post it so we can see what the manual says about it?

I bet the relay trips when a short occurs on the track...
Juhan - "Webmaster", at your service...
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes. He who does not ask a question remains a fool forever. [Old Chinese Proverb]
Offline Noel Loganathan  
#3 Posted : 13 October 2003 02:16:55(UTC)
Noel Loganathan


Joined: 12/07/2003(UTC)
Posts: 297
Location: Brisbane, QLD
Adrian

Some of us spoilt with 3 rail system.

With 2 rail, reverse polarity can be overcome using a module. this will depend if you want to use in conventional operations or digital.

Lenz has a product and this is to be used only for digital operations. I have file on this.

Cheers

Noel
Noel
Offline Noel Loganathan  
#4 Posted : 13 October 2003 11:12:06(UTC)
Noel Loganathan


Joined: 12/07/2003(UTC)
Posts: 297
Location: Brisbane, QLD
G'day all

Talking with another Marklin 1 gauge buff earlier today and Ken is of the view that the combined troubles exceed the pleasure! He has since done away with reverse loops and runs parallel himself.

A lot less hassles!

Am checking out the possibilites though.

Cheers from Bris

Noel

Noel
Offline xxup  
#5 Posted : 13 October 2003 14:17:22(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 8,944
Location: Australia
Noel and Juhan,

The picture from the manual is:

UserPostedImage

It looks like I have to press the button at just the right time for the polarity to reverse..

Adrian

Edited by moderator 10 January 2011 20:34:16(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Adrian
UserPostedImage
Australia flag by abFlags.com
Offline Noel Loganathan  
#6 Posted : 14 October 2003 03:38:10(UTC)
Noel Loganathan


Joined: 12/07/2003(UTC)
Posts: 297
Location: Brisbane, QLD
Adrian

This is correct. One can also consider using a 8947 in place of the 7244.
In addition, if the turnout is switched 'correctly' at the same time this may enhance timing of operations.

Finally, these are acceptable for internal operations. Would not dream of leaving these in the yard - albeit landscaped.

Troi should help with the timing too, using the whistle of course.

Cheers mate

Noel
Noel
Offline digilox1  
#7 Posted : 14 October 2003 06:11:11(UTC)
digilox1


Joined: 28/05/2003(UTC)
Posts: 719
Location: ,
Adrian,
You might want to recheck the schematic of the manual, it`s wrong.
Each of the SPDT switches of the relay must be hooked up to one brown and one red wire.
The center wires of each SPDT remain connected to the loop, as is.
Connect the red wires to the outer terminals of both SPDTs and the brown wires to the inner ones or vice versa, in order to get the intended polarity change in the reversing section. As proposed by Noel, hook up the turnout and the relay in parallel to simplify operations.
Also move the isolation gaps closer to the turnout to operate longer
trains.

Note: Only one end of a reversing section and the respective isolation gaps my be bridged at any given time.

Another note: The basic scheme is okay for Command control, such as
Maerklin DELTA/Digital or DCC. In addition it works for analog AC operation but not for analog DC. Analog DC operation requires different and more complex circuitry, depending on your needs.

Best regards,
Manfred










Offline xxup  
#8 Posted : 14 October 2003 12:44:59(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 8,944
Location: Australia
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Noel Loganathan
<br />One can also consider using a 8947 in place of the 7244.


Isn't a 8947 for Z scale? I thought Z scale was a 10 volt system.

Anyway, it is a bit clearer.. I guess I need to get a turnout and experiment.

The point about the garden is very valid.. The only thing might be to hide the relay inside a building. But I also realised that the relay must be close to the power supply...

Thanks for the help Noel and Manfred. I'll let you know how I get on.
Adrian
Adrian
UserPostedImage
Australia flag by abFlags.com
Offline Noel Loganathan  
#9 Posted : 15 October 2003 01:19:39(UTC)
Noel Loganathan


Joined: 12/07/2003(UTC)
Posts: 297
Location: Brisbane, QLD
Sorry Adrian

The 8947 cannot be used as the maximum volts it can carry is 10 - again my apologies.

Shall do some more research and get back.

Cheers for now


Noel
Noel
Offline Noel Loganathan  
#10 Posted : 15 October 2003 15:00:23(UTC)
Noel Loganathan


Joined: 12/07/2003(UTC)
Posts: 297
Location: Brisbane, QLD
Adrian et al

It appears that the schematic given by you is quite correct - I have check this out with Uli.

One may need 1 x 7272, 1 x 7244 and 3 sets of 56091. A left hand t/o is a must. The reasons are because Robyn will be using AC at this stage, all rolling stock come with metal wheels and its MAXI!

Cheers for now

Noel
Noel
Offline xxup  
#11 Posted : 15 October 2003 23:51:00(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 8,944
Location: Australia
Noel,

We are planning to use the IB on the 1 gauge layout. On the basis that there will (eventually) be more than one lok and we won't run the HO layout at the same time as the 1 gauge. Does this change the design of the loop?

BTW Is your e-mail giving trouble? I can always seem to send, but the mail is taking 2 or three days to arrive..

Adrian
Adrian
UserPostedImage
Australia flag by abFlags.com
Offline McLae  
#12 Posted : 16 October 2003 01:17:06(UTC)
McLae


Joined: 16/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 1,575
Location: DeSoto (Dallas area), TX
Based on my experience with n-scale (Many moons and $ ago) the wiring design will be the same whatever controler you are using. You have a left and right rail (red, black) no matter if you are running DC, AC, DCC, or Marklin digital.

Also, if I read the schematics correct, the 7244 is the same as a Viessmann 5551 relay. (I use about 12 of these).

Or, you can use a (gasp) Atlas snap relay. Be carefull of these, the snap relay does NOT have end position cut off like the 7244 and 5551. (I burnt two).
The McLae
IB digital, DB, OBB, SBB epII-V
Providing a home for little lost 'Gators
Offline perz  
#13 Posted : 16 October 2003 01:48:38(UTC)
perz

Sweden   
Joined: 12/01/2002(UTC)
Posts: 2,518
Location: Sweden
I really can't see what the 3rd pair of 56091 (down at the turnout) is there for. It should be sufficient to have only one isolated track section, the upper half circle in the figure. While the train is on the isolated section, you reverse the polarity to it (unless you are using DC, then it becomes more difficult).

The 7244 + 7272 solution should work with digital too, and it should be OK to have several locos running, but you can not have one loco entering the isolated section of a loop while another one is exiting it and you can not have two locos entering or exiting the loop at the same time in different directions.

The 7244 + 7272 solution is manually operated and you have to be sure you operate it correctly to avoid shorts when the locos enter and exit the isolated loop section. I have no scale 1 experience myself and I don't know how to detect train movements, but if you have a method for that you could make the reverse loop automatic.

An automatic solution would need one 7244 and four contacts. You put two contacts to the left, one inside and one outside the isolated section. If any of these two contacts is activated, the 7244 is activated as with the green button of the 7272. Two contacts are placed to the right, one inside and one outside the loop. If any of these two contacts is activated it corresponds to the red button.
Offline Noel Loganathan  
#14 Posted : 16 October 2003 02:46:08(UTC)
Noel Loganathan


Joined: 12/07/2003(UTC)
Posts: 297
Location: Brisbane, QLD
Adrian et al

Mate, the schematic you provided was given in the starter set and it is correct in showing the way in which reverse loops operate for the Maxi system.

In theory, the same should apply in the Marklin digital system. As the loco traverses the loop, at the point where the isolation begins the loco usually comes to a halt, and continues after pressing the 7272.

The schematics for the digital system comes with the 55031 and we will be getting this from Uli sometime today and will fax this.

BTW, we do not seem to be having delays in receiving emails - perhaps some people seem to suggest that the iMac does some things different or is it better :-)

Cheers for now

Noel
Noel
Offline xxup  
#15 Posted : 16 October 2003 11:25:12(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 8,944
Location: Australia
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:As the loco traverses the loop, at the point where the isolation begins the loco usually comes to a halt, and continues after pressing the 7272

The stop makes sense.. It needs to prevent a short that might occur if the wheels bridged the two isolated sections.

How does this work with digital? It's not like an isolated HO section that is serviced by a booster.

(I know I can test this myself, but everything is still in the box until the planning is completed)... Does the Maxi reverse direction when the track polarity is swapped?

This two rail stuff is very complex.. I'm off to the HO layout before my head hurts too much..

Thanks everyone.
Adrian
Adrian
UserPostedImage
Australia flag by abFlags.com
Offline Noel Loganathan  
#16 Posted : 16 October 2003 14:39:38(UTC)
Noel Loganathan


Joined: 12/07/2003(UTC)
Posts: 297
Location: Brisbane, QLD
Adrain et al

There will be a temporary stop as the loco recognises the reverse polarity. The same principle applies with digital, the 'power' comes off the 6021.

The loco does not change directions, unlike DC where one has to counter double pole and double throw problem.

Please let me know your fax number and I shall send the schematic diagram for the Marklin digital for 1 gauge. I received this from Uli.

Noel
Noel
Offline digilox1  
#17 Posted : 16 October 2003 19:15:13(UTC)
digilox1


Joined: 28/05/2003(UTC)
Posts: 719
Location: ,
Noel, Adrian,
Try to answer these questions for yourself.
1)Where does the track section, leading from the straight leg of the turnout to the left side of the loop, get its power from with the third pair of insulators installed right after the straight leg of
the turnout.
I would say, it`s never powered at all, regardless of the position of the relay contacts.
And, in case the left and center contacts of each SPDT are connected,
the reversing section isn`t powered too.

2)"Remove" the above mentioned insulators.
Now, I would say, the above mentioned track section IS powered.
Take a close look at the feeder wires from the tracks to the relay terminals.
Both of the red wires come from the left rails to one SPDT.
Both of the brown wires come from the right rails to the other SPDT
of the relay.
Will this installation change polarity in the upper hemispheric reversing section?
I would say nope.

Regards,
Manfred
Users browsing this topic
OceanSpiders 2.0
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

| Powered by YAF.NET | YAF.NET © 2003-2019, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 0.569 seconds.