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Braking/reverse direction with CS at 2.04
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Caplin
#51
Posted :
10 February 2008 18:32:04(UTC)
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Joined: 23/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,497
Location: Denmark
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:
Originally posted by nevw
<br />Benny,
I have done some extensive testing this morning re the "Change Direction" Arrow Pushing.
On SOME locos, there was a gradual stop, then reverse with a nice slow accelleration, on others sudden stop the quick accelleration in the opposite Direction.
Later todayI am going to compare settings to try and spot the difference.
Hi Nev, thanks for your efforts so far.
Whenever I press one of the direction arrows I get (just repeating for new readers to follow):
1) an immediately full stop (electrical braking) - may cause de-railing as explained above. This stopping is somewhat faster than hitting the
Stop
button (train sliding along by it's own weight with no power, no de-railing here);
2) change of direction but
always starting
smoothly as per the acceleration settings - never seen gaining full speed immediately. (Different to your findings, Nev).
The abrubt stopping - 1) - is in my opinion obviously a overseen issue by the sw writers and
not
a "behaviour as documented" as Lutz keeps on defending. I just cannot believe the sw was written to behave like this on purpose!
The way to go for the sw writers are of course to use the same subroutine for the braking with direction change arrows, that is used when hitting the speed graph - which gives the smooth stopping as per the de-acceleration settings. Cannot believe that M* seems to ignore the issue completely [xx(] and that Lutz is satisfied with the present behaviour of it.
Regards,
Benny - Outsider and MFDWPL
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clapcott
#52
Posted :
11 February 2008 00:34:12(UTC)
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Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,448
Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:
Originally posted by Caplin
The way to go for the sw writers are of course to use the same subroutine for the braking with direction change arrows, that is used when hitting the speed graph - which gives the smooth stopping as per the de-acceleration settings.
I have no intention of defending Marklin and agree with you observations todate. However if I may add some perspective....
Self contianed sw (e.g. PS simulator) has awareness of all variables and can dictate paramaters. When it comes to the model railway layout then reality strikes and the permutations are endless both in behavour differences and timmings.
The CS has provided a basic (very basic) "teaser" ..
a) to offer the functinality
b) to prevent other manufactures from saying "The CS cant do ....."
Some suggestions have been made on improvements. but each time an item is added to the wishlist the number of potential ramifications rise exponentially.
The most obvious in the given discussion is to do with rearming the sensor....
If a sensor triggers a "nice" deceleration to stop , followed by a delay before changing direction, followed by a delay before gently accelerating in the opposite direction, then (aside from programing in the time delay variables) the sensor would have to be disabled from retriggering for a period in excess of the total time it takes for the train to reverse back past the sensor.
If I wanted ANOTHER delay to sound the horn/bell/whistle BEFORE staring to move ... how would I do that?
One solution to the rearming issue is to wait until it hits the sensor at the other end of the shttle route. But this leaves a potential dangerous situation if some event happens and "little jonny" turns the locomotive around in the middle and reality getting out of sync with the sw - the train will never stop.
What is called for by a particular operator of a particular train on a particular shuttle operation on a particular layout is unlikely to be the same as a different operator or train or route or layout.
Computers are stupid - not only do they only do what they are told to, they don't do what they are not told to.
Peter
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Hemmerich
#53
Posted :
11 February 2008 17:12:56(UTC)
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Joined: 15/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,734
Location: ,
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:
Originally posted by SierraDelta
<br />
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:
Originally posted by Hemmerich
<br />Mine still behaves as it did already with V2.0.3 and thus as documented. [^]
Is this the behaviour you see and/or do you agree that we should expect this behaviour "as documented"?
Hi Søren,
I referred my statement to the German text (obviously
), which is exactly as you quoted above and matching my handbook on pg.11.
There is - opposed to the description for clicking the speed graph or for pendular trains - nothing written about gradually slowing the loco speed down to 0, reversing direction and gradually increasing it again back to the previous speed step.
The speed graph as well doesn't change; it simply retains the speed that was set for the previous direction, only the direction arrow changes (as documented).
Let's take for example speed step 64:
"as documented" means: CS loco speed step is changed straight from 64 to 0, direction is reversed and speed step is changed back from 0 to 64. That's apparently what the CS does, including mine.
How a certain loco might behave upon this command sequence is a different matter and can depend upon the decoder (including version) and its settings - which could also explain the different stories here - and even the loco drive design. So, it might be helpful to specify the model(s) and potentially their decoder type, settings and changes vs. factory settings for comparison.
PS: IMHO the English text (as above and per pg. 32) tells the same thing as in German.
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Caplin
#54
Posted :
12 February 2008 00:51:54(UTC)
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Joined: 23/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,497
Location: Denmark
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:
Originally posted by Hemmerich
<br />There is - opposed to the description for clicking the speed graph or for pendular trains - nothing written about
gradually slowing the loco speed down to 0, reversing direction and gradually increasing it again back to the previous speed step
.
Hi Lutz,
I agree, nothing is written, but you are completely missing my point,
this
should be the natural behavior (and hence written). I opened this topic believing in some error existed, but you have convinced me (or rather M* has - by a change with the 2.04 update, that now I never see what I used to see occationally) the CS works as designed.
IMHO: lousy, not well thought out design, certainly not tested with long trains (de-railing problem in curves). De-railing is only acceptable when hitting the panic button - not with a simple change of direction!
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:
... continued
The speed graph as well doesn't change; it simply retains the speed that was set for the previous direction, only the direction arrow changes (as documented).Let's take for example speed step 64:
"as documented" means: CS loco speed step is changed straight from 64 to 0, direction is reversed and speed step is changed back from 0 to 64. That's apparently what the CS does, including mine.
Your 64 speed example is self conflicting: why should the train stop abrubtly when going from 64 straight to 0 when it smoothly accelerates (not rushing) when speed step is changed from 0 straight to 64? Why not smoothly action both ways? You even get a bonus of brake squeeling when available.
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:
... continued
How a certain loco might behave upon this command sequence is a different matter and can depend upon the decoder (including version) and its settings - which could also explain the different stories here - and even the loco drive design. So, it might be helpful to specify the model(s) and potentially their decoder type, settings and changes vs. factory settings for comparison.
May be so, but my odd twenty locos - mostly mfx, some fx, a few lokpilots, so not a certain loco - strangely enough behave all in the same manner, that is with 2.03 occationally behaving (as in
blue statement
), with 2.04 never behaving that way anymore. In this respect the CS design has gone from bad to worse as I see it. It seems though, that I have to accept this if I want to stay with the CS. [:(!]
Regards,
Benny - Outsider and MFDWPL
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Caplin
#55
Posted :
12 February 2008 03:06:16(UTC)
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Joined: 23/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,497
Location: Denmark
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:
Originally posted by clapcott
<br />The most obvious in the given discussion is to do with rearming the sensor....
If a sensor triggers a "nice" deceleration to stop , followed by a delay before changing direction, followed by a delay before gently accelerating in the opposite direction, then (aside from programing in the time delay variables) the sensor would have to be disabled from retriggering for a period in excess of the total time it takes for the train to reverse back past the sensor.
If I wanted ANOTHER delay to sound the horn/bell/whistle BEFORE staring to move ... how would I do that?
One solution to the rearming issue is to wait until it hits the sensor at the other end of the shttle route. But this leaves a potential dangerous situation if some event happens and "little jonny" turns the locomotive around in the middle and reality getting out of sync with the sw - the train will never stop.
I don't disagree, but I think that your answer is dealing with shuttle trains and circuit tracks rather than the topic at hand.
Regards,
Benny - Outsider and MFDWPL
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nevw
#56
Posted :
12 February 2008 12:34:41(UTC)
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Joined: 27/08/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,071
Location: Murrumba Downs QLD
Benny,
I have been busy on that horrible word Work. It will be a day or two before I can get back to seeing what is happening.
N
NOt wearing the Pink Pinny, which is hard to see and now I have a white Pinny which also is hard to see against MY pure white Skin Still have 2 new shiny tin Hips that is badly in Need of Repair matching rusting tin shoulders
and a hose pipe on the aorta
Junior member of the Banana Club, a reformist and an old Goat with a Bad memory, loafing around
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DA 800
#57
Posted :
13 February 2008 23:24:44(UTC)
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Joined: 02/01/2008(UTC)
Posts: 170
Location: Norway
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:
Originally posted by Hemmerich
Let's take for example speed step 64:
"as documented" means: CS loco speed step is changed straight from 64 to 0, direction is reversed and speed step is changed back from 0 to 64. That's apparently what the CS does, including mine.
How a certain loco might behave upon this command sequence is a different matter and can depend upon the decoder (including version) and its settings - which could also explain the different stories here - and even the loco drive design. So, it might be helpful to specify the model(s) and potentially their decoder type, settings and changes vs. factory settings for comparison.
PS: IMHO the English text (as above and per pg. 32) tells the same thing as in German.
Dear Lutz
Please excuse my limited understanding of the decoder's behaviour.
I have the impression that both accelleration and decelleration is controlled from the decoders in the locomotives?
There are several ways to stop a locomotive;
- press the speed graph, and it stops nicely (with braking sound).
- Turn the red button to down to zero, and again a nice decelleration.
- Press the red button, and instant stop.
- Press the opposite arrow, and again an instant stop (+ nice acceleration again in the opposite direction)
The difference betwen the two upper and the two lower situations is that the two upper ends in speed step 0 and no direction change, while the two lower have the direcition changed.
Does this mean that the loc-decoder is programmed to do an "emergency stop" if the direction is changed (and the CS is innocent?)
If this assumption is correct, the only way the CS can make a nice stop and start sequence is to delay the direction change signal to the decoder after first having set speed step to 0?
Another possibility could be to have this delay programmed in the decoder. Does anybody know if any decoders act this way?
- MRR keeps the child in you alive!
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Pavle
#58
Posted :
14 February 2008 01:51:11(UTC)
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Joined: 21/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 206
Location: Netherlands
Another issue: with 2.04 the direction arrows remain visible after activating the control area (for switches and stuff). That's nice. But the arrows don't do anything. They only show if your loc is going forward or backward, you can't change the direction. Not so nice.
I guess the programmers simply forgot to add this functionality to the buttons...
Peter
Peter
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Caplin
#59
Posted :
14 February 2008 18:00:28(UTC)
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Joined: 23/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,497
Location: Denmark
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:
Originally posted by Pavle
<br />..I guess the programmers simply forgot to add this functionality to the buttons...
I agree, that would be a nice feature.
Previously in this topic we have learned that whatever behavior the CS is showing, if it isn't published - <u>the CS works as designed!</u> Nothing forgotten, no misbehaving. Contacts with suggestions to Märklin are ignored, assumed on the fact that they are not answered (not even a received acknowledgement is processed) within a reasonable time. [V]
So one can just wait and see if ones suggestions have been implemented in the next update.
In-spite of all this I am happy with my trains! I might just run a few of them now! [:p]
Regards,
Benny - Outsider and MFDWPL
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nevw
#60
Posted :
15 February 2008 05:18:06(UTC)
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Joined: 27/08/2005(UTC)
Posts: 11,071
Location: Murrumba Downs QLD
Benny, Prior to the update when I hit the Direction arrow, the loco slowd to a stop, then started to accellerate in a steady rate to the previous speed. SOME DID slow down a bit faster. NOw after update touch the change of direction arrow, a very quick stop on all locos followed by a nice steady accelleration to the previous speed in the opposite direction.
NOt as quick if you pushed the throttle button to change direction but stil a quick Stop.
When changing direction by touching the direction arrow the SPeed scale DOES NOT go to Zero and then back to the previous setting. Only when you change direction by pushing the Throttle does the speed step go to Zero and then you have to turn the throttle.
If you touch the Speed Scale the speed goes to Zero and the Loc slows very nicely and noisy brakes if you have them.
Have to turn hte speed button (Throttle) to get it going again.
a Definate change in Behaviour.
Nev
NOt wearing the Pink Pinny, which is hard to see and now I have a white Pinny which also is hard to see against MY pure white Skin Still have 2 new shiny tin Hips that is badly in Need of Repair matching rusting tin shoulders
and a hose pipe on the aorta
Junior member of the Banana Club, a reformist and an old Goat with a Bad memory, loafing around
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Caplin
#61
Posted :
15 February 2008 12:58:10(UTC)
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Joined: 23/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,497
Location: Denmark
Thanks for your thorough report, Nev.
I will compare your findings with my own:
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:
Originally posted by nevw
<br />Prior to the update when I hit the Direction arrow, the loco slowd to a stop, then started to accellerate in a steady rate to the previous speed.
Also brake noise if available and turned on. This is what I call
the ideal situation
. I saw this occationally but <u>only before</u> the update and with several different locos. (That's why I think this is CS sw/fw related and not decoder related).
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:
...continued
<br />
SOME DID slow down a bit faster.
This I take as a different value in the dec. setting.
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:
...continued
<br />
Now after update touch the change of direction arrow, a very quick stop on all locos
followed by a nice steady accelleration to the previous speed in the opposite direction.
Exactly my findings. That is what I called behavior going from bad to worse! This is the key issue of the topic. Now I am convinced that this is CS sw/fw related and not decoder related (sorry, Lutz!). If you have a l-o-n-g freight train and wagons from the front up to the middle happen to be in a curve or turnout these wagons are de-railed by the inertia from the wagons behind.
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:
...continued
<br />
NOt as quick if you pushed the throttle button to change direction but stil a quick Stop.
I haven't noticed a difference (still an electrical brake action in both instances, I believe).
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:
...continued
<br />
When changing direction by touching the direction arrow the SPeed scale DOES NOT go to Zero and then back to the previous setting. Only when you change direction by pushing the Throttle does the speed step go to Zero and then you have to turn the throttle. If you touch the Speed Scale the speed goes to Zero and the Loc slows very nicely and noisy brakes if you have them.
Have to turn the speed button (Throttle) to get it going again.
Same behavior here, also before the update if I remember correctly.
So, this leaves me (hopefully everybody) with the wish of a smooth, prototype-like braking when using the direction change arrows - exactly the same that is given when touching the speed scale!
In short, a request for a sw/fw change. How hard can it be
[:(!]
Regards,
Benny - Outsider and MFDWPL
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