Joined: 16/10/2005(UTC)
Posts: 382
Location: Planet Earth (mostly)
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Rumors state that the software to control the ESU ECoS can be used also to control the CS. But I wonder, had anybody every verified that? Software exists to control the ECos, Train Controller (TC) http://www.freiwald.com/, but that site doesn't mention the CS. I haven't found any experience of people using software that is supposed to work with the ECos with a CS. So I fear that rumors are not true... Has M* ever given any suggestion when to expect software for the CS? Or if and when they will open up the protocol? I am in the phase of deciding how to control my new layout. For now, it looks like it is going to be an ECoS but I still want to give the CS a chance (even thought it is about € 100 more expensive). Thanks for your replies. René |
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 Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC) Posts: 18,770 Location: New Zealand
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Well I have just had a quick play with Railroad & Co Traincontroller 5.8D with the CS, using the settings for the ESU Ecos as the "Connected Digital System" and I can confirm that Traincontroller 5.8D does work with the CS. The limited test I performed involved setting up my BR45 (the 2002 Insider version) as a loco, with functions, and then controlling the loco from the computer, and trying out the functions. Everything worked as normal.
I was testing with the demo version of Traincontroller - I don't own the full version.
Next, I'll have to try some mfx locos, and some solenoid devices.
I also tried the latest version of Rocrail, which supposedly supports the Ecos, however it did not want to connect to my CS.
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Joined: 29/04/2007(UTC)
Posts: 109
Location: NRW, Germany
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Hi Bigdaddynz and René,
Rocrail might have the device-detection used to block non-ECoS units (using get(1, info)). Theoretically any software supporting ECoS 1.0.4 can support CS 2.0.3. ECoS 1.0.6 introduces minor syntax addition and more stability on closing the connection. Perhaps most of the developers are waiting for the next CS update to have the same standard in CS as in the ECoS of today. But there are some software solutions available supporting both devices. See the software section of this forum and at stummi.foren-city.de
Cheers
Mafi |
Don't be too proud of the new high tech terror you just have invented! (Darth Vader, Episode IV) |
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Joined: 16/10/2005(UTC)
Posts: 382
Location: Planet Earth (mostly)
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Thanks for your replies. Interesting. What I am wondering Quote:[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:ECoS 1.0.6 introduces minor syntax addition and more stability on closing the connection. Perhaps most of the developers are waiting for the next CS update to have the same standard in CS as in the ECoS of today. will the ECos remain 'in sync' software wise or will they eventually diverge? M* hasn't made there protocol public yet so I don't want to run the risk that the software won't connect with the CS when the systems go their own way. I think it is a bad thing M* isn't more open on this. René |
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Joined: 29/04/2007(UTC)
Posts: 109
Location: NRW, Germany
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Dag René,
there are only rumours that "in sync" is the future way. As long as there is nothing "official" we cannot compare the intended functionalities. But we can check them out. Differences are already revealed, but they are mainly related to "non supporting DCC / supporting mf*" topics with no influence to basic coding routines. I dont think that it is a bad thing that we have nothing official written. We have officialy the real existing devices! It is just checking them out (and learning from what is posted at the forums).
;-) Mafi |
Don't be too proud of the new high tech terror you just have invented! (Darth Vader, Episode IV) |
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Joined: 16/10/2005(UTC)
Posts: 382
Location: Planet Earth (mostly)
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Quote:[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:I am in the phase of deciding how to control my new layout. For now, it looks like it is going to be an ECoS but I still want to give the CS a chance (even thought it is about € 100 more expensive). I went to the Eurospoor 2007 exhibition today, and to my suprise the Central Station was for sale there for €399 (the updated version!) and the ECoS for €499. If M* was more open about the computer interface protocol and preferably the roadmap they have regarding updates and new feautures the choice would have been easy. René |
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Joined: 16/05/2003(UTC)
Posts: 161
Location: ,
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Hi Rene,
Yes I saw the 399 CS also yesterday. Exactly the same price I paid for my (in the mean time upgraded) CS about a half yesr ago. After the upgrade I now can use my 6051 software again. With great success. The sniffer works perfect. So at the moment I am not waiting for any direct CS software.
Regards,
Hans
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Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC) Posts: 18,770 Location: New Zealand
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I've had another play with TC controlling the CS. I can read the list of locos defined in the CS into TC. I cannot, however, control any of the mfx locos. I can control (turn on / off) any of the functions on an mfx loco, but I cannot actually drive one. TC doesn't seem to disconnect from the CS when driving a mfx loco, but TC just stops being able to do anything at all with the CS. Controlling non mfx locos is fine.
I guess that stands to reason, as the Ecos is not meant to know anything about mfx, so maybe this version of TC doesn't know anything about mfx either. I guess that will come in a later version.
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Joined: 16/10/2005(UTC)
Posts: 382
Location: Planet Earth (mostly)
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Quote:[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Bigdaddynz
<br />I've had another play with TC controlling the CS. I can read the list of locos defined in the CS into TC. I cannot, however, control any of the mfx locos.
Quote:[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:I guess that stands to reason, as the Ecos is not meant to know anything about mfx, so maybe this version of TC doesn't know anything about mfx either. I guess that will come in a later version.
The Ecos controls locos with an MFX decoder just fine, but it controls them as Motora locos. So Train Controller will control those machines using Motorola without issues. When you use a Central Station, the locos are run as MFX, which TC doesn't know of. That is what causing the problems, I assume. So it looks like the compatibility of the CS with the Ecos (from the perspective of train controlling software) only holds for none-MFX machines. That will disappoint many CS-owners, who claim that soon they will be able to use the software that is designed for the Ecos. When this situation (= Marklin not being open about the protocols) doesn't change the next few weeks, Marklin will have lost me as a potential buyer of the CS... Rene |
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 Joined: 13/07/2004(UTC) Posts: 642
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Hi,
the mfx-protocol has nothing to do with the interface-protocol so that I guess that's not the reason for mfx-engines not being controllable through TC.
Might merely have something to do with the fact that mfx-engines in the ECoS-system is run with 28 speedsteps instead of 128 in CS-environment. The RailNet BETA-phase is soon ended and it'll run mfx-engines with 128 speedsteps (already does...). |
Fredrik.
*ECoS 2 + ECoSDetector + SwitchPilot + ECoSTerminal; *Z21 + Loconet + Digikeijs + MGP; **CS3+ + CdB (** coming soon...)
WWW: MJ-fjärren |
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Joined: 16/10/2005(UTC)
Posts: 382
Location: Planet Earth (mostly)
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Quote:[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:the mfx-protocol has nothing to do with the interface-protocol so that I guess that's not the reason for mfx-engines not being controllable through TC.
Might merely have something to do with the fact that mfx-engines in the ECoS-system is run with 28 speedsteps instead of 128 in CS-environment. Yep. That is an example of the kind of problems I was thinking of. That implies that software explicitly has to be aware it is controlling a CS, not an Ecos. For many practical purposes (running MFX locos) that means the Ecos and the CS are incompatible... In the Netherlands, most people use the freeware program "Koploper". Its developer says it will never develop for the CS when Marklin doesn't open up the protocol to communicate with the CS. So setting "Koploper" to Ecos mode will probably do the thing, but only for non MFX locos.[:(] Please enlighten me when I am wrong. Very interested to hear about your experience! René |
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Joined: 29/04/2007(UTC)
Posts: 109
Location: NRW, Germany
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Hi to all, software should be able to control all vehicles at 128, inependently from protocol on the tracks and no matter what device is connected. The following devices REQUIRES 128 speedstep-programming for the developer: IB, TC, EC and compatible. The following devices are supporting 128-speeds programming for developers: CS, ECoS, Dynamis. So for a developer it is more than easy to support the 128-speed access to the device. Plz notice: the access to the device has NOTHING to do what happens on the user interface or what happens on the tracks. Sadly to say the ECoS and the CS offers a way to access speed by the "speedstep" format. This format is not recommendable for simple programs. It requires to know how many speeds a vehicle offers. Look into the documentation offered by Uhlenbrock to see what I mean (it is in English). The ECoS protocol appears later ...<further text removed by internal zensorship before publishing>... PS: edited later: and even the Pros are using this way: http://www.windigipet.de.../index.php?topic=55387.0reporting that WinDigipet is accessing all vehicles via 128 speeds when connecting to CS/ECoS... Mafi |
Don't be too proud of the new high tech terror you just have invented! (Darth Vader, Episode IV) |
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Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC) Posts: 2,448 Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
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I can offer that ...
using ESU/ECoS documentation and an MFX loco on a CS that..
a get(id, protocol) is capable of returning MFX
however ...
a get(id, speedindicator) returns a value of MM14 which differs from the actual 128 on the display.
So at this stage The commands are there to support correct handling but the CS is not responding correctly.
note: there are other commands in the ECoS documentation that are not recognised by the CS (returns "<END 22 (NERROR_NOTALLOWED)>") or, in the case of a get(id, profile), a mini reset of the CS. If software is written to utilise such commands then it may not be handling the "error"/"non response" correctly.
PS for the record the machine I used returns the following for a get(1, info)
1 CentralStation
1 ProtocolVersion[0.1]
1 ApplicationVersion[2.0.3]
1 HardwareVersion[1.1] |
Peter
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Joined: 16/10/2005(UTC)
Posts: 382
Location: Planet Earth (mostly)
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Interesting. So internally, the ECoS recalculates this to the 28 MMII speedsteps, the CS to 128 steps. Quote:[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:
I can offer that ...
using ESU/ECoS documentation and an MFX loco on a CS that..
a get(id, protocol) is capable of returning MFX
however ...
a get(id, speedindicator) returns a value of MM14 which differs from the actual 128 on the display. Which explains the problem Bigdaddynz is experiencing with MFX locos. René |
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Joined: 12/12/2005(UTC) Posts: 2,448 Location: Wellington, New_Zealand
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well yes and no.
Yes in as much as software "should" interogate device characteristics and be bound by them
No in that a set(id, speed[new speed]) still works with a newspeed= 127
I propose that the speedindicator is meaningless when the protocol = MFX |
Peter
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Joined: 16/10/2005(UTC)
Posts: 382
Location: Planet Earth (mostly)
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Quote:[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:I propose that the speedindicator is meaningless when the protocol = MFX So now I have to hope my favorite software ignores the speedindicator in its implementation for the ECoS... Maybe I should give the developer a hint (or maybe not, his moods seems to be anti-Marklin, for not opening up to protocol). René |
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 Joined: 31/05/2007(UTC) Posts: 534
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Hello at all,
I tested my updated CS with the software Win Digipet pro X Demoversion by putting in the Software the EcoS Settings.
Everything is working well, included all my mfx locos.
The only thing I had to take care is the link between loc list CS and loc list Software. Once the link is done, everything works fine.
The Software is handling the mfx locos as 28 steps MM2 Decoder. No clue what the CS is doing, but it works fine.
About Traincontroller I downloaded the Demoversion. I will test it soon.
regards
Stephan
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Joined: 15/04/2003(UTC)
Posts: 2,734
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Quote:[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by supermoee
The Software is handling the mfx locos as 28 steps MM2 Decoder. No clue what the CS is doing, but it works fine. Hi Stephan, this is in line with my findings as well. Since the ECoS doesn't support mfx, that SW-part has been disabled/left off and the protocol value (for example in a "queryobjects(10..." command) will be converted to MM28 instead. likewise, specifying "mfx" in a "create(10..." command won't work either. 
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Joined: 16/10/2005(UTC)
Posts: 382
Location: Planet Earth (mostly)
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Quote:[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by supermoee
<br />I tested my updated CS with the software Win Digipet pro X Demoversion by putting in the Software the EcoS Settings.
The Software is handling the mfx locos as 28 steps MM2 Decoder. No clue what the CS is doing, but it works fine.
From what I understand of it, als long as it is using the command set(id, speed[val]) in stead of set(id, speedstep[val]) everything should be fine, regardless the protocol it thinks it is using. Cheers! René |
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Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC) Posts: 18,770 Location: New Zealand
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When using Windigipet with the CS, what is the (tcpip) port number setting that should be used?
BTW, I downloaded MJ-Teknik's Railnet Beta software and installed it. Unfortunately, upon startup the program terminates with a Windows exception error. I tried it on 2 different Windows machines, both with the same error.
It appears the database does not get created, but I'm not sure whether the program abends because there is no database, or due to something else.
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Joined: 13/07/2004(UTC) Posts: 642
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Hi Bigdaddynz,
thanks for this information - no one else has mentioned this so I'll get right onto it. I will mail you an empty database-file so you can test it. The non-BETA-version will appear soon. Until then very little will happen with the BETA... |
Fredrik.
*ECoS 2 + ECoSDetector + SwitchPilot + ECoSTerminal; *Z21 + Loconet + Digikeijs + MGP; **CS3+ + CdB (** coming soon...)
WWW: MJ-fjärren |
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Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC) Posts: 18,770 Location: New Zealand
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Thanks Fredrik, I've enabled my email address, so that you can do that. Much appreciated. One thing I should ask about your software is whether there are any dependancies, such as java or .net versions?
BTW, I've answered my own question re the tcpip port number. I found on Stummi's forum a reference to the Ecos using port 15471, and I've confirmed that by running the netstat command in windows while TC is connected to the CS. Netstat shows all active (established) and listening tcpip connections on your computer.
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Joined: 16/10/2005(UTC)
Posts: 382
Location: Planet Earth (mostly)
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Quote:[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Bigdaddynz
<br />I also tried the latest version of Rocrail, which supposedly supports the Ecos, however it did not want to connect to my CS.
Maybe I'll have a look at the source code. It should be relatively easy to see if it checks the "get(1, info)" response to see if there is an ECoS on the other side and change that behavior and recompile (I have Ubuntu Linux on a Virtual Machine). René - might buy an Ecos or CS this weekend at the Houten MRR fair - |
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Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC) Posts: 18,770 Location: New Zealand
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Joined: 16/10/2005(UTC)
Posts: 382
Location: Planet Earth (mostly)
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Quote:[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Bigdaddynz
<br />Good luck, Rene.
Well, from what I saw in the code it should be able to connect to a CS. At least, I did not see any code that checks if the central announces itself as an ECoS. Are you sure you configured Rocrail properly? René |
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Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC) Posts: 18,770 Location: New Zealand
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Well yes that thought crossed my mind, Rene. I haven't as yet had a chance to go back and check it. I'll report back as soon as I do.
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Joined: 16/10/2005(UTC)
Posts: 382
Location: Planet Earth (mostly)
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In the mean time I bought myself an ECoS. So for the moment, I will not investigate this issue any further myself, but the outcome does interest me.
René
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