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Offline cjeung  
#1 Posted : 28 May 2007 23:29:04(UTC)
cjeung


Joined: 21/12/2006(UTC)
Posts: 9
Location: San Mateo, CA
I'm going to be converting the signal masts on my Marklin turntable #7286 to use LED lights, but I'd like to get I'd like to get information regarding the light aspects and color lights used. I'm assuming that the aspects are proceed slowly and stop, but what colors are used and what arrangements of lights.

From the appearance of the molded light with the turntable. it looks like there would be three lights on the top (with a 1 - 2 light combination) and a single light on the lower left.

If we follow the Marklin yard light light example, it would be two red lights, and two white. In the following config:

r wr
w

However, I think it might use a color combination of Red, Green and Yellow. Does anybody have any information on the prototypes?

In the end, I might just do a:

r g or r gr
y y

if I have the space.
Offline steamfriend  
#2 Posted : 29 May 2007 00:58:56(UTC)
steamfriend


Joined: 19/11/2002(UTC)
Posts: 378
Location: Leuven, Belgiium
Hi CJ !

I have done this myself too. The signal that is used is a simple shunting signal :

top row : red, white, red
bottom : white

the signal works like this : access = two white at 45°, no access = two red in flat line.

I used the Viessmann signal 4017

UserPostedImage

Good luck,
Bob

Edited by moderator 11 January 2011 14:53:16(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline intruder  
#3 Posted : 29 May 2007 01:28:16(UTC)
intruder

Norway   
Joined: 16/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 5,382
Location: Akershus, Norway
Thanks for interesting information anfd the nice photo.

How do you control and power the signal light?
Best regards Svein, Norway
grumpy old sod
Offline Bart  
#4 Posted : 29 May 2007 02:06:48(UTC)
Bart

Netherlands   
Joined: 13/05/2002(UTC)
Posts: 670
Great picture!

I have an additional question re. turntable signal placement.

Apparently, signals on the turntable are 'facing outward', thus, controlling entering the turntable.
How is leaving the tuntable controlled? confused

a. to the roundhouse - by hand (no signal), I assume?

b. to the 'rest of the world' ? Do the access track(s) connecting turntable to shunting area / main track have shunting signals (b) that control leaving the turntable?

c. how are tracks protected that lead from main track to turntable when the turntable is not in the correct position (c)?

UserPostedImage

Edited by moderator 11 January 2011 14:52:57(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

*Bart
Offline steamfriend  
#5 Posted : 29 May 2007 19:58:31(UTC)
steamfriend


Joined: 19/11/2002(UTC)
Posts: 378
Location: Leuven, Belgiium

Hi Bart and Intruder,

some answers to your questions : I had a lot of trouble with the Marklin decoder and motor itself, so after my major kitbashing of the turntable I got quite frustrated to see I could not operate the table digitally in a smooth manner.
(https://www.marklin-users.net/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=4504)

I therefore went for the search for other decoders. BMB Technik has one that can be built INTO the bridge. So: you only need to supply the brigde, and with the decoder on board you can control the motor, the signal and the cabin light. The nice thing about the BMB decoder is that it operates the signals automatically. When starting the turn, they turn red, when the bridge arrives at the target rail connection, it decellerates (!), stops, and a fraction of a second later the lights turn white.. [:p][:p] Very nice !!

Info on : (unfortunately German, but the pictures speak for themseleves)
http://www.bmbtechnik.de/spezial.html
http://www.digital-bahn.de/bau_ds/drehsb.htm

Luis (laaves) from Portugal has used a locpilot decoder into his bridge. See (https://www.marklin-users.net/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=5998)

As to the signals, as far as I have seen them, they always point outwards. On the digital-bahn site there is a pic (and they also describe it) where both incoming and outgoing signals are on the bridge. I cannot remember have seen this in steamrailroad times, but it must exist. In the original bridges one used a formsignal, that was visible from any position. it was mounted directly adjacent to the cabin.
Now to answer the question, how does the drive know when to leave the bridge ? It is signalled by a horn (see https://www.marklin-user...lt.aspx?g=posts&t=6090).

Incoming tracks were protected sometimes by the orange W-type signals: 'Wartezeichen' of waiting signals. They indicated the locdriver to wait for a hand signal of a signal supervisor to proceed.

Hope this clarifies a few of the operations ...Smile

Bob
Offline Lars Westerlind  
#6 Posted : 29 May 2007 19:59:05(UTC)
Lars Westerlind


Joined: 19/10/2001(UTC)
Posts: 2,379
Location: Lindome, Sweden
I don't know anything here, but I find only 'c' useful, telling incoming locos that it's not OK to enter. All the rest movements are easily done 'by hand'

/Lars
Offline Bart  
#7 Posted : 29 May 2007 20:37:52(UTC)
Bart

Netherlands   
Joined: 13/05/2002(UTC)
Posts: 670
Thanks Bob, Lars
I have recently ordered the BMB decoder, and I saw the recommendation on their site to mount 4 signals on the bridge, for entering and leaving in either direction.
However, I have never seen that on prototype turntable pictures - that was one of the reasons to raise the question here.

Yes, the W signal at position c I found in older pics. Would those be replaced by shunting signals in the light signal era?

Still wondering if anyone knows how situation b is handled in real life.Smile
*Bart
Offline Fredrik  
#8 Posted : 29 May 2007 22:22:50(UTC)
Fredrik

Sweden   
Joined: 13/07/2004(UTC)
Posts: 642
Hi,

often the turntable (TT) is located outside signal controlled area and no signals are needed at all. Then on & off the TT is purely "on sight". There probably are TT located in signalled areas (as the 7686 model contains signals), but I think they more often are located outside. And IF you're entering a TT from a signalled track (signal controlled that is), most certainly you need to place a signal controlling the track entrance from the TT. However, this signal must not be placed on the TT itself, but would probably be placed along the spoke track, where clearance from other tracks is acchieved.

Most tracks (through a BW) was surely not signalled, at least not in stema-engine-era. Merely the entrance from BW to main-tracks. Here in Sweden not many (if any) TT:s are in a signal-controlled area, or ever was. Germany off course have (and had) a lot more trains running, but yet I think most signals in those areas would be placed on entrances/exits from those areas.

But MAYBE the germans really put signals on their TT:s to easier give the engineer(s) clearance to enter/leave the TT, even outside signal-controlled areas - however that's a speculation...

For 'b' they would have a shunting-signal somewhere, but as stated above it must not be in direct access of the TT.

And for situation 'c' one can say: After entrance of the TT area (passing the last signal), there might be NO PROTECTION at all!
Fredrik.
*ECoS 2 + ECoSDetector + SwitchPilot + ECoSTerminal; *Z21 + Loconet + Digikeijs + MGP; **CS3+ + CdB (** coming soon...)
WWW: MJ-fjärren
Offline steamfriend  
#9 Posted : 29 May 2007 22:55:26(UTC)
steamfriend


Joined: 19/11/2002(UTC)
Posts: 378
Location: Leuven, Belgiium
Yes, I agree along the lines of Frederik ! Most of the time the locs were driving on sight. I never saw a signal on the exit track of the tt, unless this track was leading outside the BW area. You would always have something between 5 to 20 loclenghts (what a nice unity for lenght [}:)]) to encounter the shunting signal, or even a main signal, or sometimes even a W signal, that was controled by the main signalhouse. Drivers would give a short 'pfiff' to attrack the attention of the signal responsible to get clearance to go out.

Bob

Offline Bart  
#10 Posted : 30 May 2007 00:17:18(UTC)
Bart

Netherlands   
Joined: 13/05/2002(UTC)
Posts: 670
Great info, thanks!
*Bart
Offline Macfire  
#11 Posted : 30 May 2007 12:43:50(UTC)
Macfire


Joined: 04/11/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,652
Location: New Zealand
What a fantastic insight. Thanks all of you.
Couple fo question:
Do you have to convert your TT to digital to do this conversion?
BMB decoder - can these be retrofitted at their factory?
I am useless when dealing with small electrical "thinggies"
Lord Macca
New Zealand branch of Clan Donald.
Offline steamfriend  
#12 Posted : 31 May 2007 02:48:32(UTC)
steamfriend


Joined: 19/11/2002(UTC)
Posts: 378
Location: Leuven, Belgiium
Hi friends,

Thanks for the compliments. It is a real pleasure to see our efforts get resonance with a few more people... biggrin

To Macfire :

I have to disappoint you: you need to go digital to allow such additional functions. But it really is worhtwile. You do not have to go digital with your machines though : I can still use my analog machines on my digitally controlled tt ! biggrin

As to building this into your bridge, I can imaginge BMB (Gerd Boll) is willing to be of help. I suggest you send him a mail. I never tried, but I am sure he is very able to correspond in english. His direct mail is :

info@bmb-technik.de

You can mention I sent you (bob.p@belgacom.net). Eventually, I may be considering to be of help too, but the decoders etc. should come from Gerd. (and if you have time [:I]

Best wishes

Bob
Offline klinge-germany  
#13 Posted : 31 May 2007 03:03:43(UTC)
klinge-germany


Joined: 15/07/2003(UTC)
Posts: 260
Location: Hamburg,
the viessmann 4017 is a good solution i think, but most tt's 'in nature' had the old shunting signal alike the maerklin 7042 (but more likely the never in model realized 'gleissperre') which can be seen from both sides. i for myself have never seen the 'modern' viessmann 4017 in 'nature' but of course this can have been the reality from about 1951 on. when i build my layout this will be one of my 'medium' problems, to put the signal of my tt's into 'life'.
have fun with yout mrr's around the world whereever you are, which system you like and/or operate
alfred
alfred...with M since 1960...layout under construction (in mind...)
collecting M items - but not a collector...
editing posts only for tyops...uppps...typos
Offline steamfriend  
#14 Posted : 31 May 2007 22:37:17(UTC)
steamfriend


Joined: 19/11/2002(UTC)
Posts: 378
Location: Leuven, Belgiium
Hi Afred,

I agree, the real sperrgleise type signal (sh0 end sh1) would look so much nicer. However, I have been hurting my brains to see a way to fit them,but could not find a satisfying solution. Moreover, the Boll's decoder is adapted to go with the 4017 Viessmann...

Moreover, I can reassure you that the light signals were in extensive use in the late 60-ies, early 70-ies. I visited quite a lot of BW's in those days. I enclose a pic from a real steam bastillion like Hamburg, where you can see them. Have many more examples, so we can reassure ourselves... (at least that is what I need wink)

Bob

UserPostedImage
Offline DaleSchultz  
#15 Posted : 31 May 2007 23:07:56(UTC)
DaleSchultz

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2006(UTC)
Posts: 3,997
nice pic

now assuming there is a shunting signal at both ends, would they both show Sh1 at the same time?
or would only one end be Sh1 and the other Sh0 ?


Dale
Intellibox + own software, K-Track
My current layout: https://cabin-layout.mixmox.com
Arrival and Departure signs: https://remotesign.mixmox.com
Offline Fredrik  
#16 Posted : 31 May 2007 23:39:57(UTC)
Fredrik

Sweden   
Joined: 13/07/2004(UTC)
Posts: 642
Hi,

we can also see that, in this case, there is no signal (in the far end) for leaving the TT. In the matter of either or both signals showing Sh1 at the same time, I guess both possibilites applied.
Fredrik.
*ECoS 2 + ECoSDetector + SwitchPilot + ECoSTerminal; *Z21 + Loconet + Digikeijs + MGP; **CS3+ + CdB (** coming soon...)
WWW: MJ-fjärren
Offline Philip  
#17 Posted : 01 June 2007 01:32:34(UTC)
Philip


Joined: 20/10/2006(UTC)
Posts: 267
Location: , Denmark
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by DaleSchultz
<br />nice pic

now assuming there is a shunting signal at both ends, would they both show Sh1 at the same time?
or would only one end be Sh1 and the other Sh0 ?




Hello every body.
IMHO when the shuting signal were aplied to a TT, the reason for that must be a very buissy betribs werk, where more loks where serviced at the same time - there for the signal would probably not be abel to show akcess Sh1 from both sides at the same time - but rather be coppelt together so that when one end shows Sh1 the other shows Sh0 and vis versa, but ofcourse both could showe Sh0 at the same time.

Philip
Philip.

Let's keep it simple.
MFDWPL
Offline klinge-germany  
#18 Posted : 01 June 2007 14:03:38(UTC)
klinge-germany


Joined: 15/07/2003(UTC)
Posts: 260
Location: Hamburg,
thanks for the picture, bob
an interesting detail is the white/red/white upright 'shield' on it, which says it's a 'main' signal and it is not allowed in any case to proceed at sh0 without written notice. of course i have thought in the past to apply an old 'gleissperre' signal to the tt but haven't find a good solution for it (of course it shall work and be no 'dummy'). So i think i will apply the 'modern' signal, too. how did you supply the signal with power?
alfred
alfred...with M since 1960...layout under construction (in mind...)
collecting M items - but not a collector...
editing posts only for tyops...uppps...typos
Offline Macfire  
#19 Posted : 04 June 2007 06:53:21(UTC)
Macfire


Joined: 04/11/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,652
Location: New Zealand
Thanks for the info Bob.
Certainly something I'll look into in the future.
Lord Macca
New Zealand branch of Clan Donald.
Offline steamfriend  
#20 Posted : 05 June 2007 17:12:15(UTC)
steamfriend


Joined: 19/11/2002(UTC)
Posts: 378
Location: Leuven, Belgiium
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote: how did you supply the signal with power?



Dear Alfred,

look at my first message in this thread : bmb or digital-bahn have interesting websites describing how to do it. BMB offers a dedicated decoder, that contains all the necessary steering. Since it is built into the bridge, one can do a lot biggrin

(and since you are German, you will not have problems understanding the language )Cool


Yours,

Bob
Offline klinge-germany  
#21 Posted : 06 June 2007 18:13:03(UTC)
klinge-germany


Joined: 15/07/2003(UTC)
Posts: 260
Location: Hamburg,
thank you Bob, i will visit these
alfred...with M since 1960...layout under construction (in mind...)
collecting M items - but not a collector...
editing posts only for tyops...uppps...typos
Offline cjeung  
#22 Posted : 12 November 2007 01:26:17(UTC)
cjeung


Joined: 21/12/2006(UTC)
Posts: 9
Location: San Mateo, CA
Hello Everybody,

I just popped in to see what was happening and I notice quite a few unread replies to my original posting. I thought I would add an update to let you know how I've gotten along with my project. First, I'd like to thank everybody for their input and some very helpful photos.

As a quick summary for my project, I decided on modifying my Marklin turntable to use #76372 Color Light Yard Signals. Originally, I tried to drive two of these lights off of one decoder, but found that (without mucking around the teenie tiny surface components) I didn't have enough current to drive the two light masts with any reliability. Luckily I found room to install two decoders. I should mention that my wiring was only meant to make the light aspects switchable using digital control (i.e. I didn't make the lights switch aspects when the turntable was in motion. Which is an analog method employed by a fellow MUG member Owidgie.)

I would've added some photos of this mod, but my Central Station is in the shop for the upgrade. I will post some when I get it re-attached to my layout. Also, since I had my turntable apart for the modification, I took the liberty to apply some paint, a la a feature that I liked on a fleischmann turntable. You'll be able to see that as well when I post.

All in all, everything is working great, and I'm proud of myself for being able to do this mod. As a matter of curiosity, does anybody have an opinion on whether the light aspects should switch automatically when a loco enters the tt, or when the tt starts to turn, or is it just better to keep it manually controlled? (I might do this mod, if possible)

Cheers,
Curtis
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