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Offline Roberto Romano  
#1 Posted : 06 May 2007 22:00:33(UTC)
Roberto Romano


Joined: 02/02/2007(UTC)
Posts: 101
Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico
Does anybody have the electric schematic of the electronic reversing unit (Vorschaltelektronik) Marklin #246800confused
Here is the picture for reference:

UserPostedImage

Edited by moderator 11 January 2011 23:05:01(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Regards, Roberto
Offline MärCo  
#2 Posted : 06 May 2007 23:08:59(UTC)
MärCo


Joined: 06/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 1,159
Location: The Netherlands
Is it broken?
You can also replace the relais by a Delta 66032 decoder and set all the switches to "off".
Absolutly AFB-NOHAB fan ;-)
Offline Roberto Romano  
#3 Posted : 06 May 2007 23:40:48(UTC)
Roberto Romano


Joined: 02/02/2007(UTC)
Posts: 101
Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico
I have tree of these units that I would like to use in some old engines using electromechanical (EM)relays only. While experimenting I damaged one of them and found that the small transistor was completely open. I replaced the transistor and now it can activate the EM relay but the motor does not go, so I suspect the large transistor is bad too (the one on the right in the picture). I have the pin out configuration and diagram to connect the external parts(motor, EM relay, pick up and ground, etc.). I am curious to see how it works, it looks so simple. I guess I could extract the circuit; but it will be very time consuming and the components are too crammed together.
MarCo, thank you for the info on the 66032, it is good to know that. I dont have any 66032s.
Regards, Roberto
Offline Bart  
#4 Posted : 07 May 2007 00:21:00(UTC)
Bart

Netherlands   
Joined: 13/05/2002(UTC)
Posts: 670
This module was used in the 33xx series.

Some info (in German) here:
http://hgh-esn.ath.cx/p03_maeana_v-um.htm

As I deduct from the diagram, the module rectifies the AC input to DC, and a zener diode compares the voltage: if below 22-24V, current goes through the large transistor to the motor; if 24V, the transistor is off, and current goes to the reversing relais for a limited (1 sec) period.
Thus, it prevents the jumps older locos make when 24V simultaneously feeds the motor.
In addition, it provides direction-dependent lights (which requires additional diodes in the black leads to the motor).
*Bart
Offline john black  
#5 Posted : 07 May 2007 12:26:32(UTC)
john black

United States   
Joined: 22/04/2004(UTC)
Posts: 12,139
Location: New York, NY
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Roberto Romano
<br />I have tree of these units that I would like to use in some old engines

Hi Roberto,

please don't do that - if you want a headache you can get it from nicer things ... biggrin
On <u>ALL</u> my analog locos this electronic piece of junk smoked up, sooner or later [xx(][xx(][xx(]

My solution is simple (my layout got one analog and one digital level):
Those engines I want to remain analog keep their classic electromechanical units - if adjusted
& oiled, properly, they work like a dream [^]
Those destined for digital get new decoders - a nice UHLENBROCK #76200 goes for €30, only Smile
I hope no one visits a poor Southener's layout in Brooklyn. Intruders beware of Gators.
AT&SF, D&RGW, T&P, SP, WP, UP, BN, NYC, ARR, epI-III - analog & digital Marklin Classics only.
CU#6021 FX-MOTOROLA DIGITAL SYSTEM. Fast as lightning and no trouble. What else ...
Outlaw Member of BIG JUHAN's OUTSIDER CLUB. With the most members, worldwide

Offline Roberto Romano  
#6 Posted : 07 May 2007 17:28:14(UTC)
Roberto Romano


Joined: 02/02/2007(UTC)
Posts: 101
Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico
Thank you, Bart. This is just what I needed to satisfy my curiosity as how this gadget works. I knew that in this forum someone had the answer; this is what makes this forum unique. As far as converting the analog engines, John, I will give it a second thought. The engine I was working to change is a beautiful 3058 which was giving me trouble at any reversing action. Now it is working perfectly with The EM relay, after thoroughly cleaning the relay contacts. How is that the "Vorschaltelektronik" eventually smokes in all the engines John[:(]? I have two 33xx series engines with factory equipped electronic relay and they always work flawlessly and smoothly, without any jerks or humSmile. This was my motivation to initiate the changes. One only has to be careful to isolate the EM relay from the frame engine.
BTW, in another topic of the forum, someone was having trouble with the engine lights staying on after a reversing action and the engine stalled. I could bet [}:)] that dirty relay contacts is the problem, even a small dark speckle in any contact is enough to cause this symptom of lights on and motor stalled. The contact dirt has enough resistance in the motor circuit path to prevent any current flow[xx(] while the lamps receive the full voltage of the trafo setting.
Regards, Roberto
Offline Bart  
#7 Posted : 07 May 2007 23:45:48(UTC)
Bart

Netherlands   
Joined: 13/05/2002(UTC)
Posts: 670
John, I agree with you that the Uhl #76200 should be the perfect reversing unit for those who want to stay analog.
However, part of the fun is finding out how the stuff works biggrin
*Bart
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#8 Posted : 08 May 2007 01:06:08(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,665
Location: New Zealand
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Roberto Romano
<br />Does anybody have the electric schematic of the electronic reversing unit (Vorschaltelektronik) Marklin #246800confused


Roberto, check out the Downloads section of www.toottoot.co.nz

Dion, the owner of the site knew you wanted this, so specially made it for you.....winkwink
Offline Bart  
#9 Posted : 08 May 2007 03:18:31(UTC)
Bart

Netherlands   
Joined: 13/05/2002(UTC)
Posts: 670
Many thanks, interesting link.
The diagram is different from the one I know.

I don't fully understand the NZ diagram. I'm not an electronics expert, but I'm surprised that the small BC337 transistor would feed the motor,
and I'm not sure I understand the direction of the zener diode. Might be my ignorance.[:I]
*Bart
Offline Bigdaddynz  
#10 Posted : 08 May 2007 03:57:49(UTC)
Bigdaddynz

New Zealand   
Joined: 17/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 18,665
Location: New Zealand
Bart, I think Dion has created this diagram by reverse engineering the circuit. As he says on his web page "this circuit has not been checked by anybody else, so something could be wrong!". You can email Dion if you wish, links are on the web site home page.

Offline efel  
#11 Posted : 08 May 2007 13:06:14(UTC)
efel

France   
Joined: 23/02/2005(UTC)
Posts: 800
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Bart
<br />Many thanks, interesting link.
The diagram is different from the one I know.

I don't fully understand the NZ diagram. I'm not an electronics expert, but I'm surprised that the small BC337 transistor would feed the motor,
and I'm not sure I understand the direction of the zener diode. Might be my ignorance.[:I]

My answer to this quiz:
I would say that the red wire from the motor should go to "I" and black wire from the relay coil to "H".
I would also reverse the zener direction.
The reversing unit should have a "flip flop" behaviour.
Fred
Offline john black  
#12 Posted : 08 May 2007 18:01:37(UTC)
john black

United States   
Joined: 22/04/2004(UTC)
Posts: 12,139
Location: New York, NY
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Bart
<br />John, I agree with you that the Uhl #76200 should be the perfect reversing unit for those who want to stay analog.
However, part of the fun is finding out how the stuff works biggrin

You're right, Bart ... biggrin
Remember when that very first ERS went up in blue smoke ? (my E254 Gator #3335)
And it was our great Electronic Guru Jorge Smile, then, who told me they're just junk, and never last.
And I better go UB#76200 in the future. He was soooo right - four others were down the river, soon.
Well, installed that UB in many locos, meanwhile. Still happy with his excellent advice CoolCoolCool
I hope no one visits a poor Southener's layout in Brooklyn. Intruders beware of Gators.
AT&SF, D&RGW, T&P, SP, WP, UP, BN, NYC, ARR, epI-III - analog & digital Marklin Classics only.
CU#6021 FX-MOTOROLA DIGITAL SYSTEM. Fast as lightning and no trouble. What else ...
Outlaw Member of BIG JUHAN's OUTSIDER CLUB. With the most members, worldwide

Offline Bart  
#13 Posted : 09 May 2007 00:20:17(UTC)
Bart

Netherlands   
Joined: 13/05/2002(UTC)
Posts: 670
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by efel
My answer to this quiz:
I would say that the red wire from the motor should go to "I" and black wire from the relay coil to "H".
I would also reverse the zener direction.
The reversing unit should have a "flip flop" behaviour.
Fred

Fred, brilliant, I think you've got it biggrin
Indeed, the 'flip flop' is how these units work: a single coil, with the switch mechanically flipflopping between 2 positions (as in a ballpoint pen Smile)

John - are you sure you haven't wired your units using this guy's diagram?
Smoke guaranteed biggrinbiggrinbiggrin
*Bart
Offline john black  
#14 Posted : 09 May 2007 00:32:32(UTC)
john black

United States   
Joined: 22/04/2004(UTC)
Posts: 12,139
Location: New York, NY
Never touched 'em, Bart - all wired OEM. They simply couldn't stand regular use ... [xx(]
I hope no one visits a poor Southener's layout in Brooklyn. Intruders beware of Gators.
AT&SF, D&RGW, T&P, SP, WP, UP, BN, NYC, ARR, epI-III - analog & digital Marklin Classics only.
CU#6021 FX-MOTOROLA DIGITAL SYSTEM. Fast as lightning and no trouble. What else ...
Outlaw Member of BIG JUHAN's OUTSIDER CLUB. With the most members, worldwide

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