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Lars Westerlind		#1 Posted : 21 April 2007 10:52:36(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 19/10/2001(UTC) Posts: 2,379 Location: Lindome, Sweden		I was just wondering about this. Does anyone know - When was it acquired, or more importantly - When will it expire? - Rumors say it Märklin will allow others to use it in near future. Does anyone know anything? /Lars
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DasBert33		#2 Posted : 21 April 2007 11:31:55(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 21/01/2004(UTC) Posts: 1,245		According to a Viessmann employee on the Viessmann forum it will be made public: Hallo, wir haben Information, daß das mfx-Protokoll seitens der Fa. Märklin freigegeben worden wäre. Nach Vorlage werden wir eine entsprechende Integration im Commander vornehmen können. Weitere Informationen dazu folgen. MfG i.A. Wolfgang Brinken Viessmann Modellspielwaren GmbH I'm also very interested, especially regarding possible support for my ecos. Bert
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john black		#3 Posted : 21 April 2007 14:13:31(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 22/04/2004(UTC) Posts: 12,139 Location: New York, NY		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by DasBert33 <br />wir haben Information, daß das mfx-Protokoll seitens der Fa. Märklin freigegeben worden wäre Seems M recognised (at last) opening MFX brings extra money by license fees Also, since many wait for a "complete" CS guess they made not the cash they had hoped, so far ...
		I hope no one visits a poor Southener's layout in Brooklyn. Intruders beware of Gators. AT&SF, D&RGW, T&P, SP, WP, UP, BN, NYC, ARR, epI-III - analog & digital Marklin Classics only. CU#6021 FX-MOTOROLA DIGITAL SYSTEM. Fast as lightning and no trouble. What else ... Outlaw Member of BIG JUHAN's OUTSIDER CLUB. With the most members, worldwide
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rschaffr		#4 Posted : 21 April 2007 16:59:35(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 03/01/2003(UTC) Posts: 5,180 Location: Southern New Jersey, USA		Lars: Here is the original patent application: http://v3.espacenet.com/...mp;F=0&QPN=EP1555054 I also have heard that Marklin will license use of mfx to other manufacturers, but I have not herd when.
		-Ron Digital, Epoch IV-V(K-track/CS3/6021Connect/60216051), Epoch III(C-track/6021/6036/6051) http://www.sem-co.com/~rschaffr/trains/trains.html
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Lars Westerlind		#5 Posted : 21 April 2007 21:00:13(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 19/10/2001(UTC) Posts: 2,379 Location: Lindome, Sweden		Well yes, dated 2004. In my imagination patent were valid for 7 years, but I guess things have changed? The patent is hold by ESU, so it appears certain that Märklin and ESU have an agreement, which might be shorter than 7 years; at least my guess. And in my thinking it then semms logical to get some license or other credit, it's seems reasonable to open mfx up before expiration of agreements. Seems logical, even though Märklin have not made logical business decisions in the past. ESU also states that "when mfx is released the ECoS is prepared for that" if I remember correctly. And they certainly now what's in the agreement with Märklin. Might be that in 1-2 years the mess Märklin has caused will clear up. Most customers can be happy: - Those wanting the Märklin label and warranty: CS+Mobstat - Those wanting a better solution (functionality, ergonomics) ECoS - Those technichians: the new Uhlenbrock Solution. - Dark hores: Viessmann commander. It WILL have the best screen besider computers, no doubt. Just pure speculation. /Lars
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rschaffr		#6 Posted : 21 April 2007 21:14:59(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 03/01/2003(UTC) Posts: 5,180 Location: Southern New Jersey, USA		Yes, I'm sure there is a contract with Marklin that only allows ESU to market mfx decoders for the present. How long that contract is in force, we can only speculate. I agree with your prediction as to the future. Any idea when Viessmann will release the commander? I am still waiting for the switch machine they announced in 2005. (Ron beating his personal dead horse)
		-Ron Digital, Epoch IV-V(K-track/CS3/6021Connect/60216051), Epoch III(C-track/6021/6036/6051) http://www.sem-co.com/~rschaffr/trains/trains.html
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DasBert33		#7 Posted : 21 April 2007 21:22:50(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 21/01/2004(UTC) Posts: 1,245		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Lars Westerlind <br />Well yes, dated 2004. In my imagination patent were valid for 7 years, but I guess things have changed? On a Flemish forum, the Benelux importer for ESU stated that mfx would probably be available on ecos within 2 years. He said he heard that info directly from ESU. That was about 8 months ago. I have asked again on that forum whether anything has been changed since then. Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Lars Westerlind <br />Those technichians: the new Uhlenbrock Solution Is there anything new announced? Bert
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Lars Westerlind		#8 Posted : 21 April 2007 22:22:40(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 19/10/2001(UTC) Posts: 2,379 Location: Lindome, Sweden		No, not really. Just speculating, or dreaming. The ending of Daisy and the new Basic IB, gives me the thought that IB Basic and IB IR both have enough memory AND the same kind of software to allow for mfx when allowed. They have promised the 2.0 but not delivered, and not said why; instead continued with other products. So I guess they have reason to believ that mfx will be open for them and awaiting that. I see no other explanation. Possibly a wait and see, but why release the IB Basic if they don't believe in the future for IB/LocoNet? The comptetion is very much stronger than before, but still they have a superior technical solution IMHO. /Lars
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DasBert33		#9 Posted : 22 April 2007 00:26:55(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 21/01/2004(UTC) Posts: 1,245		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by Lars Westerlind <br />No, not really. Just speculating, or dreaming. The ending of Daisy and the new Basic IB, gives me the thought that IB Basic and IB IR both have enough memory AND the same kind of software to allow for mfx when allowed. They have promised the 2.0 but not delivered, and not said why; instead continued with other products. So I guess they have reason to believ that mfx will be open for them and awaiting that. I see no other explanation. Possibly a wait and see, but why release the IB Basic if they don't believe in the future for IB/LocoNet? The comptetion is very much stronger than before, but still they have a superior technical solution IMHO. /Lars Hmm, my view is that they can't succeed in bringing a stable version 2.0 nor develop hardware/electronics that's on par with present standards. I wonder whether there is even a market for a device like intellibox basic, especially for us 3R guys. Bert
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Lars Westerlind		#10 Posted : 22 April 2007 10:27:39(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 19/10/2001(UTC) Posts: 2,379 Location: Lindome, Sweden		Might be true in both aspects of course. Still, IB Basic indicates that Uhlenbrock haven't given up at least. But there are reasons to suspect that the original IBs did not have enough spare memory for all the updates in the path, plus new extras. And Uhlenbrock have no reason to upgrade the old boxes for free. I do think IB Basic makes sense if it's also prepared for software expansions like this, and also giving Uhlenbrock some income for their effort. I would at least consider to buy a IB Basic if it's software is good enough. Just mfx-running is not good enough for me, Motorola+DCC works well, but I would appreciate programming of mfx-decoders. But if there are models with more functions, lokchoice per name etc, I would look for it. Remember, Uhlenbrock is a small company used with working with low costs, so their defnition of "market" is different from Märklins. And Uhlenbrock sits heavily in germany, so 3R must be considered. /Lars
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Lars Westerlind		#11 Posted : 22 April 2007 21:49:50(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 19/10/2001(UTC) Posts: 2,379 Location: Lindome, Sweden		I did not notice until now the module that is complementing the CS in the coming upgrade, allowing for s88 , 6021 etc. As someone pointed out, it's identical with the module used for ECoS. Not hard to guess, made by ESU, and allowed for use by Märklin. As ESU now have ECoS, I believe they wouldn't trade with Märklin except if mfx were set free => it seems more than a rumour that it will. We don't KNOW that Viessmann, Uhlenbrock and others will be allowed to use it though. But Viessmann says so. Further speculating: when ESUs software update is ready, it will be free. I don't think ESU would let Märklin deliver this sniffer before they have got a new agreement concerning this. The money ESU may earn on ECoS is far more than Märklin might pay for the sniffer IMHO. /Lars
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rschaffr		#12 Posted : 22 April 2007 21:54:40(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 03/01/2003(UTC) Posts: 5,180 Location: Southern New Jersey, USA		Interesting point, Lars. The next few weeks should be interesting.
		-Ron Digital, Epoch IV-V(K-track/CS3/6021Connect/60216051), Epoch III(C-track/6021/6036/6051) http://www.sem-co.com/~rschaffr/trains/trains.html
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digilox1		#13 Posted : 22 April 2007 22:41:30(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 28/05/2003(UTC) Posts: 719 Location: ,		Lars, The mfx patent will never expire, because it hasn`t been granted. The suffix "A1" means the patent has been applied for but not yet been granted. A granted patent would carry the suffix B1, B2,...,Bx. Seems that ESU, respectively Jürgen Lindner have applied for the patent only once ("A1"). A European patent needs a certain "height of invention", it`s got to be a real innovation not just an eclectic enumeration of known techniques. So hack it, market it, but don`t use the term "mfx", as the tradename "mfx" is protected by law. Regards, Manfred
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Lars Westerlind		#14 Posted : 22 April 2007 23:28:39(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 19/10/2001(UTC) Posts: 2,379 Location: Lindome, Sweden		That makes sense to me Manfred. There is no "invention" in /systems, only well known procdures (from the computer world) applied in a new area. However, what you say doesn't explain why Uhlenbrock and Viessmann didn't do it long time ago, I mean, implemented it. ESU might have an agreement, but the others... There is something more in that I would be glad if someone could explain for me. /Lars
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Lars Westerlind		#15 Posted : 22 April 2007 23:34:35(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 19/10/2001(UTC) Posts: 2,379 Location: Lindome, Sweden		... could be... They really don't want to hack it, becuase they are afraid that the moment they do, Märklin will use hidden features and cause them huge costs... If so, "set free" means "published" with some degree of intention that the protocol won't change, or merely, Märklin is happy that there are other manufactures doing supplement items making railroading with Märklin more fun, thus causing people like me to buy more loks... Calming down. We'll see, or othervise, have to wait some more years :-(
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DasBert33		#16 Posted : 23 April 2007 14:57:34(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 21/01/2004(UTC) Posts: 1,245		I got a reply from the Benelux importer of ecos on my question concerning mfx on ecos. Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote: Bert, ESU had aangekondigd dit te doen zo'n 2 jaar na het verschijnen van de ECoS (sept. 2006) Ondertussen heb ik vernomen dat ESU in de eerste tijden (onbepaald hoelang...) het mfx-protocol NIET vrijgeeft in haar ECoS. Märklin heeft in deze zaak geen beslissing te nemen. Wel is er een verbeterde samenwerking tussen ESU en Märklin sinds Märklin in Britse handen is (lees: sinds de nieuwe directie geïnstalleerd is) Begrijp dus: het is ESU die het protocol vrijgeeft, niet Märklin. Märklin is "gebruiker", niet de eigenaar van het protocol. mvg, Patrick Freely translated: originally it was the plan to release mfx on ecos about 2 years after release of the ecos (which was in september 2006). Latest news is that ecos for the time being does NOT plan to release mfx on ecos. Marklin does not decide whether they can release it or not, it is ESU themselves. Since M is in British hands relation between M and ESU have improved. Bert
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Lars Westerlind		#17 Posted : 23 April 2007 15:34:19(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 19/10/2001(UTC) Posts: 2,379 Location: Lindome, Sweden		Thanks for good info. Makes some sense, and fits into (by me) known facts. My picture more and more shows that there are really no legal issues; only ESU have the full know-how, and they are busy enough with selling ECoS mark I; mfx will perhaps be a later business option for them. Still uncertain why Viessmann and Uhlenbrock are so lazy... But I guess, the market is too tight for big investments... /lars
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hxmiesa		#18 Posted : 23 April 2007 17:08:22(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC) Posts: 3,520 Location: Spain		If I remember right, I seem to have seen a refernce in Stummi´s to an oficial text stating that patent rights would NOT be granted to the mfx application. Sorry, as I dont remember the reference, this is nothing but hear-say :-/
		Best regards Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain") http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
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jeehring		#19 Posted : 24 April 2007 18:14:57(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC) Posts: 2,786 Location: ,		If I were a digital station manufacturer I always do my best for making people believing MFX will be implemented into my Digital Station !! If I say " no, thre will be no MFX in my Digital Station" I just loose 40% or more of the potential of digital Market. So everybody has interest in saying "MFX will be implemented soon" ! From my sources, the relationship between ESU and Marklin is just stable. As bad as before. There are still involved in lawsuit. But what we actually see concerns the contract they have already been signing many years ago about the developpment of CS.While there is a lawsuit, everybody carefully respect the terms of the contract. No waves,no tornado.
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DasBert33		#20 Posted : 24 April 2007 19:15:47(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 21/01/2004(UTC) Posts: 1,245		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by jeehring <br />There are still involved in lawsuit. Is there a lawsuit? I didnt know that. Bert
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Lars Westerlind		#21 Posted : 24 April 2007 21:38:00(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 19/10/2001(UTC) Posts: 2,379 Location: Lindome, Sweden		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by jeehring <br />If I were a digital station manufacturer I always do my best for making people believing MFX will be implemented into my Digital Station !! If I say " no, thre will be no MFX in my Digital Station" I just loose 40% or more of the potential of digital Market. So everybody has interest in saying "MFX will be implemented soon" ! From my sources, the relationship between ESU and Marklin is just stable. As bad as before. There are still involved in lawsuit. But what we actually see concerns the contract they have already been signing many years ago about the developpment of CS.While there is a lawsuit, everybody carefully respect the terms of the contract. No waves,no tornado. Agreed with the first, but not the latter. Märklin have announced the 6021 to be a separate unit, not a plug in, and at one momement, only for turnout commands. It seems very strange to announce this and have an agreement with ESUs that says something different. Makes much more sense with my poor knowledge if Kingsbridge have made them negotiate; which of course might also concern a lawsuit. I didn't know about a lawsuit either; what was it about? /Lars
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jeehring		#22 Posted : 24 April 2007 23:39:37(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC) Posts: 2,786 Location: ,		They have probably bought a whole project including developpments + improvements before & after release. What usually happens in software developpments dealing ? What about updates? First updates, furher updates? How they usually fix the limits in this kind of deal, I don't know exactly. I think several ways, several types of contract are existing Remember the 6 months delay due to a question of compatibility with old boosters? Remember the first "keyboard-screen & functions" very different from the actual "keyboard screen & functions", it has been modified during the period of delay... Intruder's name is "Ecos". Ecos received some developpments that was originally planned for CS. At this time Marklin was entirely trusting ESU for the developpment of one Marklin & one Trix CS . .Because ESU forgot it, there is no S88 connector on CS. They have associated the S88 with the idea of "Big Layout", so it 's the reason why they planned it on boosters.. Watching all reactions of customers after CS deliveries and planning to present something on DCC market they change their mind.
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digilox1		#23 Posted : 25 April 2007 00:29:38(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 28/05/2003(UTC) Posts: 719 Location: ,		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:If I were a digital station manufacturer I always do my best for making people believing MFX will be implemented into my Digital Station !! If I say " no, thre will be no MFX in my Digital Station" I just loose 40% or more of the potential of digital Market. So everybody has interest in saying "MFX will be implemented soon" ! Obviously, mfx isn`t going to become the blockbuster of model railroading as some might have been expecting, at least not for ESU. They have joined the ranks of the RailCom working group, actually encomprising Lenz, Kuehn, Tams, ZIMO, ESU and Viessmann. Don`t know what it takes making mfx RailCom tolerant and vice versa, but it`s probably not so easy. And, as long as ESU is a supplier for Märklin`s CS, they don`t have to care about mfx market shares. Remember, the ECoS Boost will have full mfx compatibility and will come with a stabilized power supply, also attracting CS users. It`s Märklin`s business to promote mfx and ESU will participate at the success of their efforts without investing own funds into marketing campaigns. Regards, Manfred
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jeehring		#24 Posted : 25 April 2007 01:02:06(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC) Posts: 2,786 Location: ,		Nothing is changing. Always two markets: three rails and two rails. MFX is not a system. MFX is only a protocol. other precision: few years ago, three rails market was estimated to represent more than half the market of digital , as many two rails enthusiast were running analogic...
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jeehring		#25 Posted : 25 April 2007 01:57:03(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC) Posts: 2,786 Location: ,		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by digilox1 <br /> Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:If I were a digital station manufacturer I always do my best for making people believing MFX will be implemented into my Digital Station !! If I say " no, thre will be no MFX in my Digital Station" I just loose 40% or more of the potential of digital Market. So everybody has interest in saying "MFX will be implemented soon" ! Obviously, mfx isn`t going to become the blockbuster of model railroading as some might have been expecting, at least not for ESU. They have joined the ranks of the RailCom working group, actually encomprising Lenz, Kuehn, Tams, ZIMO, ESU and Viessmann. Don`t know what it takes making mfx RailCom tolerant and vice versa, but it`s probably not so easy. And, as long as ESU is a supplier for Märklin`s CS, they don`t have to care about mfx market shares. Remember, the ECoS Boost will have full mfx compatibility and will come with a stabilized power supply, also attracting CS users. It`s Märklin`s business to promote mfx and ESU will participate at the success of their efforts without investing own funds into marketing campaigns. Regards, Manfred Are you talking about the position of any subcontractor in the world? ESU is also making cheap DCC decoders and digital station for Bachmann UK.
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digilox1		#26 Posted : 25 April 2007 12:09:32(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 28/05/2003(UTC) Posts: 719 Location: ,		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:ESU is also making cheap DCC decoders and digital station for Bachmann UK. Yes, the Bachmann E-Z command "Dynamis", fully compatible with the ECoS. The initial Bachmann entry into the DCC market was the E-Z command, developped by Lenz and still available, but not compatible with "Dynamis". The Atlas "Commander" was a rebadged Lenz "compact", the Roco "digital is cool" was developped by Lenz, as well as the Hornby DCC releases; Tran, hke (they`ve abandoned their DCC business)and ZTC are supporting the Lenz XpressNet. PCM of USA is using LokSound decoders, the BLI "blueline" is designed to make use of the analog PCM DC commander. Yes, DCC subcontractors or OEMs don`t seem to have a bad living these days...and no lawsuits, patent issues and other inconveniencies so far, as Märklin is only marginally involved in DCC, via Trix. Regards, Manfred
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jeehring		#27 Posted : 25 April 2007 13:14:34(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC) Posts: 2,786 Location: ,		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by digilox1 <br /> Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:ESU is also making cheap DCC decoders and digital station for Bachmann UK. Yes, the Bachmann E-Z command "Dynamis", fully compatible with the ECoS. The initial Bachmann entry into the DCC market was the E-Z command, developped by Lenz and still available, but not compatible with "Dynamis". The Atlas "Commander" was a rebadged Lenz "compact", Roco "digital is cool" was developped by Lenz, as well as the Hornby DCC releases; Tran, hke (they`ve abandoned their DCC business)and ZTC are supporting the Lenz XpressNet. PCM of USA is using LokSound decoders, the BLI "blueline" is designed to make use of the analog PCM DC commander. Yes, DCC subcontractors or OEMs don`t seem to have a bad living these days...and no lawsuits, patent issues and other inconveniencies so far, as Märklin is only marginally involved in DCC, via Trix. Regards, Manfred Go ahead! ( Atlas,Lenz,QSI,Lionel,BLI, and Co.... = plenty of lawsuits these last 5 years!) As for me I'm not interested in this kind of discussion.
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digilox1		#28 Posted : 25 April 2007 16:37:04(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 28/05/2003(UTC) Posts: 719 Location: ,		Okay, then, please, stop that kind of stuff: Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:If I were a digital station manufacturer I always do my best for making people believing MFX will be implemented into my Digital Station !! If I say " no, thre will be no MFX in my Digital Station" I just loose 40% or more of the potential of digital Market. So everybody has interest in saying "MFX will be implemented soon" ! In deep gratitude, Manfred
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jeehring		#29 Posted : 25 April 2007 21:56:54(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 25/09/2003(UTC) Posts: 2,786 Location: ,		Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by DasBert33 <br /> Quote: [size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by jeehring <br />There are still involved in lawsuit. Is there a lawsuit? I didnt know that. Bert More precisely: It's not new.In January 2007 , so it seemed to be , so I've been told . Today, April 25, no more news. Any change in the situation? Are they moving towards a solution? May be...
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