Welcome to the forum   
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Share
Options
View
Go to last post in this topic Go to first unread post in this topic
Offline PeterNZ  
#1 Posted : 19 April 2007 06:05:11(UTC)
PeterNZ


Joined: 19/06/2005(UTC)
Posts: 7
Location: Auckland,
I think I have a problem with my small (2.2m x 1.5m)C track layout. I am running it with a Marklin 60VA transformer and 2 Mobile Stations.
the output voltage at the transformer measures 16.4V AC but the voltage on the track that is coming from the MS is only 10.4V AC (voltage measured on the feeder track). this seems too low to me and certainly I have problems if I run 2 mfx locos with lights and sound on. I have searched the forum to see if anybody has discussed this before, but could not find info on exactly my problem.
Has anybody got experience of track voltages from MS? Do I need to invest in a 6021/CS/IB etc.?

Offline Purellum  
#2 Posted : 19 April 2007 07:03:34(UTC)
Purellum

Denmark   
Joined: 08/11/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,505
Location: Mullerup, 4200 Slagelse
Some time ago I did some tests, and here is the results in short:
A master mobstat uses about 170_mA.
A slave mobstat uses about 35_mA.
I allso hooked up some big resistors, just to the limit of my 1,9_A mobstat, that gave me 1,75_A on the amperemeter!
And here comes the bad part: The voltage on the tracks is about 18,6_V with no load, and about 11,0_V with full load!!!

The trafo looses 2-3V, the very thin wires 1V, and then the controller and "uglybox" the rest.

So you see, your measurements are close to mine.

The cheapest solution is to make a booster of a 6604, this helps a lot. I'll find a link later.

Per.
If you can dream it, you can do it!

I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide.

In case this is not legally possible:
I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.

UserPostedImage
Offline H0  
#3 Posted : 19 April 2007 12:46:59(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,267
Location: DE-NW
#1: Not all volt meters can be used to monitor track voltage. (I get two totally different and totally meaningless reading with the red cable at the center stud vs. black cable on the center stud.) Which voltage readings do you get from your MS? Track voltage should be 18+ V with no trains on the track.
#2: The capacitor in the ugly box is pretty small.

What problems do you have? The MS will switch off track voltage if it detects overload. So if your trains start to stutter this could be a problem with MS overload.
If you don't have problems with stuttering trains, but with dropping track voltage: a switching DC power supply (18 through 22 V) is the best solution against this problem; bigger capacitors can also help.
I have a laptop power supply with a fitting plug - track voltage is more stable with it than with the orignal M* transformer.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline rugauger  
#4 Posted : 19 April 2007 14:37:38(UTC)
rugauger

United Kingdom   
Joined: 19/12/2003(UTC)
Posts: 1,205
Location: Swindon, Wiltshire
Don't forget that you CANNOT measure track voltage in a digital system using a conventional volt meter. This is because the voltage is not AC, but it is not "pure" DC either due to the digital signals being transmitted via a reversal of + and - . The closest you'll get is with a capacitor, the + to the outer rails and the - to the centre studs. You should get between 18V and 20V that way.
Richard
Offline dntower85  
#5 Posted : 19 April 2007 17:35:12(UTC)
dntower85

United States   
Joined: 08/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,218
Location: Shady Shores, TX - USA
Just before my mobile station blew the voltage dropped to around 9 to 10 it had been around 13 to 14. About two days later after the voltage dropped it stopped working. Marklin quickly replaced my MS but while it was out for replacement I bought a 6021 off of ebay. Now I only use the MS for a Programing Track to set addresses and speed properties.
DT
Now powered by ECoS II unit#2, RocRail
era - some time in the future when the space time continuum is disrupted and ICE 3 Trains run on the same rails as the Adler and BR18's.
Offline john black  
#6 Posted : 19 April 2007 17:54:21(UTC)
john black

United States   
Joined: 22/04/2004(UTC)
Posts: 12,139
Location: New York, NY
Congratulations, Darrin - best move, ever CoolCoolCool
I hope no one visits a poor Southener's layout in Brooklyn. Intruders beware of Gators.
AT&SF, D&RGW, T&P, SP, WP, UP, BN, NYC, ARR, epI-III - analog & digital Marklin Classics only.
CU#6021 FX-MOTOROLA DIGITAL SYSTEM. Fast as lightning and no trouble. What else ...
Outlaw Member of BIG JUHAN's OUTSIDER CLUB. With the most members, worldwide

Offline mario54i  
#7 Posted : 19 April 2007 19:01:24(UTC)
mario54i

Italy   
Joined: 28/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 284
Location: Torino,
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by rugauger
<br /> The closest you'll get is with a capacitor, the + to the outer rails and the - to the centre studs. You should get between 18V and 20V that way.


Don't do this. A capacitor on the digital signal is close to a short. I've seen a capacitor placed between red and brown wires causing an extra absorption of 1 A.
A more meaningful reading can be obtained by placing a rectifier bridge on the rails and measuring its rectified output with a DC voltmeter. It's some sort of peak voltmeter, just add 1 V to reading to account for diode voltage drop.
On my IB I've seen terrible voltage drops with load. Peak output voltage drops of ~3 V per A of load. The reason seems to be in not enough filtering of power supply, observing the output of the IB with an oscilloscope I see a big ripple at 50 Hz (I'm in Europe) increasing with load.

Regards

Offline H0  
#8 Posted : 19 April 2007 22:26:29(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,267
Location: DE-NW
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by mario54i
<br />On my IB I've seen terrible voltage drops with load. Peak output voltage drops of ~3 V per A of load. The reason seems to be in not enough filtering of power supply, observing the output of the IB with an oscilloscope I see a big ripple at 50 Hz (I'm in Europe) increasing with load.

What I said: the capacitors inside are too small. I received some new capacitors last week, but had no time for a test yet. I consider adding a few mF to my Delta booster...
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline hmsfix  
#9 Posted : 19 April 2007 23:07:07(UTC)
hmsfix


Joined: 06/02/2005(UTC)
Posts: 1,383
Location: Darmstadt,
Hi friends,

measuring digital voltages and currents with a simple volt meter is not so easy, as it is neither a DC nor an AC voltage/current, as rugauer has already said. And it's high frequency, where many standard electronic devices fail to work correctly.

Nevertheless, it is quite easy to obtain correct results, it you transform the digital signal to clean DC, as is shown in the following circuit:
UserPostedImage

As you see, it is a simple rectifier bridge. However, you can't use an ordinary rectifier but you need really fast switching diodes, e.g. the Schottky diode indicated in the diagram or equivalent. Standard 1 N 400x diodes won't do, but leave too mich high frequency at the volt meter inputs.

The voltmeter in this circuit must be adjusted to a DC measurement range, and it will show the correct absolute voltage at the tracks.

With this circuit, you may also determine the current flowing in your digital circuit. Simply insert the rectifier in the red wire (between the MS/CS/CU/IB output and the center rail). The multimeter must be adjusted for a DC current range. The diodes should be able to withstand the current flowing. With the BVY 2100 you can use this device for currents up to 2 A.

Total cost for the diodes is perhaps 3 - 4 EUR.

Hans Martin
Offline PeterNZ  
#10 Posted : 20 April 2007 06:45:43(UTC)
PeterNZ


Joined: 19/06/2005(UTC)
Posts: 7
Location: Auckland,
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by PeterNZ
<br />I think I have a problem with my small (2.2m x 1.5m)C track layout. I am running it with a Marklin 60VA transformer and 2 Mobile Stations.
the output voltage at the transformer measures 16.4V AC but the voltage on the track that is coming from the MS is only 10.4V AC (voltage measured on the feeder track). this seems too low to me and certainly I have problems if I run 2 mfx locos with lights and sound on. I have searched the forum to see if anybody has discussed this before, but could not find info on exactly my problem.
Has anybody got experience of track voltages from MS? Do I need to invest in a 6021/CS/IB etc.?

Thanks for for all your answers. however both of my MS burnt out last night so I think the problem was with them - they don't seem to be repairable as 2 IC's are blown.

Will go back to analog until I can afford to get a 6021/IB or something, as Scooty said on Star Trek "the more complicated the plumbing, the easier it is to stuff up the drains". judging by all of your comments about digital controllers this seems to be true.
Thanks once again.


Offline hemau  
#11 Posted : 23 April 2007 15:08:20(UTC)
hemau


Joined: 09/01/2007(UTC)
Posts: 589
Location: The Netherlands
Very sad to hear from your MS burning. Please tell us more how this happenend so we can learn from it. I hope you did not connect two MS with two ugly boxes to the same track?
Henk.
C and M track; CS1R and 2 MS
Users browsing this topic
Guest
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

| Powered by YAF.NET | YAF.NET © 2003-2024, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 0.877 seconds.