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Offline diesel  
#1 Posted : 15 April 2007 01:52:52(UTC)
diesel

Australia   
Joined: 03/10/2005(UTC)
Posts: 284
Location: Australia
At present I am using a Marklin 6021 CU and three boosters.

Yesterday I downloaded the the Ecos user manual and was extremely impresssed especially now that it is compatible (V1.04) with RR&co.

But I have realized I may have a problem with the wiring of my old large layout.

With ECoS - contrary to Older Marklin systems- there is no "common" (ground). This is a major warning from ESU in the manual.

The manual says that when using boosters the boosted areas must be totally electrically isolated. ie centre rail and outer tracks.

The boosters are connected to one point on the Ecos.

My understaning is that I now have to isolate all my ground points at the points where I have isolated my centre tracks and then run a new ground wire from each booster. Not a problem for a new layout but difficult for an older one with scenary and many isolating points in difficult to reach places.

If this indeed is a problem then could the solution be to only run the ecos track power to my totally isolated (ie centre track and ground isolated ) K84 and K83 circuits and hence never get a crossing over of the Ecos circuit and old boosted circuit.

The other solution is to buy an intellibox as it does not need to have a separate common for each boosted area but I feel that the technology with ecos is newer.

I looked up the ESU user forum for the ecos and there is a downloadable PDF file for the wiring of a booster but as I am not an owner I cannot download it. The web address is below and may be an ecos owner could download and publish this as this may help. I usally go thru google to translate these sites but this did not help in this case.

http://www.esu-support.e...d=141&pid=411#pid411

I hope someone can help out as I would like to try the ECoS out but I do want a major wiring headache.


Thanks

Diesel.

PS Ihave mentioned this in the topic "My ECos experience" but I thought it may be better start this part as a new subject as I feel it could be a problem for others also.
Ecos 50200, Software 4.1.2 Marklin HO K track, EcosBoost, Traincontroller Gold V9.0,B2, All track power via EcosBoost Separate programing siding. Decoders- Lokpilot V2,Lokpilotv3, Lok V4, LoksoundV4, Loksound V5, Marklin MFX and Marklin Fx. Internet Exlporer 11.0, Win 7
Offline xxup  
#2 Posted : 15 April 2007 02:17:53(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,457
Location: Australia
This is insane... Even if you could electrically insulate the "ground" rails they would be connected whenever a loco crossed the "border".. How long can the loco stay here? What is the minimum speed of a loco crossing a border? Perhaps this warning is only for Two-rail DC users? Like you, I can't possibly insulate the "ground" rails as I am using m-track..
Adrian
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Offline diesel  
#3 Posted : 15 April 2007 03:46:27(UTC)
diesel

Australia   
Joined: 03/10/2005(UTC)
Posts: 284
Location: Australia
Adrian

Thats how I feel also. I am using K track and I can see you would have a bigger problem.

But check the manual out. You can download it in English at:
http://www.loksound.com/ go to download and then down to manuals.

Its on page 11 - wiring details section 8.3 - wiring details. Quote
" ECos uses an H4-bridge ( full bridge) for the track power. Therefore with ECoS - contrary to older Marklin systems - there is no "Common " (Ground)."
Marklin is specificaly mentioned !!!
Then page 12 section 8.7.

But what about my solution or work around - would it work?.

All track power for locos via my old boosters with original wiring which does have commons between the boosters BUT not crossing over to the ECos track out put as this will only go to the isolated K83 and K84 circuit. The two circuits ie via the booster connection and ECos track out put may be separated enough - hopefully but I want this clarrified before I buy the ECos.

The Marklin CS does not appear to have this problem as you only need a rocker riser at the point where you cross over to the CS from the old but only one contact shoe so no cross over via two shoes. My problem with Marklin CS is no computor interface for RR&Co.

Diesel
Ecos 50200, Software 4.1.2 Marklin HO K track, EcosBoost, Traincontroller Gold V9.0,B2, All track power via EcosBoost Separate programing siding. Decoders- Lokpilot V2,Lokpilotv3, Lok V4, LoksoundV4, Loksound V5, Marklin MFX and Marklin Fx. Internet Exlporer 11.0, Win 7
Offline xxup  
#4 Posted : 15 April 2007 06:08:31(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,457
Location: Australia
If you are saying that you will use the eCOS to provide track power and the boosters to provide power to turnouts, signals and k84 devices then I guess it may work depending on the number of locos that you run on the track at any time. It certainly kills off any growth in terms of increasing the number of locos on your layout..

Personally, the lack of common ground kills the eCOS for me, but it might be an idea to troll some more forums to see what other people who have boosters are doing with their layouts.. Perhaps the reality is not as bad as it sounds. For example, when I set up my first boosted section I was told to use the rockers so that the ski can not be in two circuits at the same time. But these rockers required you to run the trains at insane speeds in order to get enough momentum to jump the rocker. Since then it is obvious that as long as the loco is not parked across the isolated section, then there will be no problems..

If you only want computer control, there are other solutions than the IB which is very expensive. I am using Digital-S-Inside and a LDT HSI-88 set up, and it works fine for me. Like the IB, I have limited mfx support, but until the new boosters are available this will be the case for everyone who wants computer control..

Cheers
Adrian
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Offline diesel  
#5 Posted : 15 April 2007 07:33:51(UTC)
diesel

Australia   
Joined: 03/10/2005(UTC)
Posts: 284
Location: Australia
Sorry Adrian I meant the away way around as per my original note: I just edited that now to the correct way ie:

All LOCOS to run via my old boosters with present wiring which do have commons between them.
This circuit would not cross over to the track out put from the Ecos as this would only going to the isolated K83 and K84 circuit.
The two circuits ie 1. via the booster connection for all Locos and 2. via the ECos track out put for all signals may be separated enough to prevent problems.

This way we can still expand the layout with future boosters just as before.

You are also correct about the original so called problem with the rockers and ski. I have three boosters, no rockers and many lococs are double shoed and I prefer slow running and have no problems. I also use the LDT HSI.

Hopefully someone can shed some light on this potential problem.

Diesel
Ecos 50200, Software 4.1.2 Marklin HO K track, EcosBoost, Traincontroller Gold V9.0,B2, All track power via EcosBoost Separate programing siding. Decoders- Lokpilot V2,Lokpilotv3, Lok V4, LoksoundV4, Loksound V5, Marklin MFX and Marklin Fx. Internet Exlporer 11.0, Win 7
Offline DasBert33  
#6 Posted : 15 April 2007 11:05:00(UTC)
DasBert33

Belgium   
Joined: 21/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,245
Hi Diesel,

I tried downloading the pdf for you but it seems the file is corrupt on the server of ESU (I tried on 2 computers) and I can't open it (for some reason it's only 1 kb big). Maybe you (or I) have to email ESU about it, so they can fix the that.

Nevertheless I think it will definately work if you only use your old boosters for the track and the ecos output amp for the switches (in a completely seperated circuit). It's only the different output amp configuration that gives a problem. I cannot test this for you as I do not have boosters.

The only downside as I see it is that you won't be able to use DCC bidir when (and if) it is released, or the mfx, if that is ever released on ecos. But at that time you can easily replace your boosters (3 is not that much?)

Bert
Offline Lars Westerlind  
#7 Posted : 15 April 2007 11:13:30(UTC)
Lars Westerlind


Joined: 19/10/2001(UTC)
Posts: 2,379
Location: Lindome, Sweden
Is this true then? That ECoS require rail isolation as well? Sorry for not believing, but as Adrian said, it appears insane to me. I do think I understand that the power stage is different from 6021,6015,6017, Intellibox etc, but why isn't the booster signal just optocoupled so that track ground could be mainted as a "layout common ground".

/Lars
Offline DasBert33  
#8 Posted : 15 April 2007 15:07:50(UTC)
DasBert33

Belgium   
Joined: 21/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,245
Lars,

You are correct I think, if the boosters/ecos are galvanically isolated, it shouldn't be necessary to isolate the rails. Using 2 sliders in a loco IS a problem however. If you use boosters with the same type of output stage there is no problem.
But unless there is some confirmation from ESU I would not take the risk of frying an output amp.

So Diesel, the setup you propose will work, there is no reason not to upgrade to an ecos or CS (they are the same hardwarewise)

Bert
Offline diesel  
#9 Posted : 15 April 2007 16:04:49(UTC)
diesel

Australia   
Joined: 03/10/2005(UTC)
Posts: 284
Location: Australia
Bert

thanks for your positive feedback. ECos is getting more tempting once again.
I have emailed ESU about the wiring diagram and also asked them about the rail isolation and my idea.
Hopefully they will answer quickly and I will advice of their answer

You mentioned DCC bidir - what is this?

The idea of replacing boosters later is OK as long as I do not have to rewire etc but they are not that cheap. The ESU 8 amp booster costs almost as much as the Ecos - pricing from Lokshop, due in Oct 07.

I look forward to your report on connection with RR&Co with V1.4 of Ecos.

Diesel
Ecos 50200, Software 4.1.2 Marklin HO K track, EcosBoost, Traincontroller Gold V9.0,B2, All track power via EcosBoost Separate programing siding. Decoders- Lokpilot V2,Lokpilotv3, Lok V4, LoksoundV4, Loksound V5, Marklin MFX and Marklin Fx. Internet Exlporer 11.0, Win 7
Offline DasBert33  
#10 Posted : 16 April 2007 16:44:12(UTC)
DasBert33

Belgium   
Joined: 21/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,245
Diesel,

It seems your complaining worked :) The link to the pdf works again. The drawing explains there is no issue with boosters when using ecos. You can simply replace your IB with ecos without having to worry.

Bert
Offline diesel  
#11 Posted : 16 April 2007 17:28:57(UTC)
diesel

Australia   
Joined: 03/10/2005(UTC)
Posts: 284
Location: Australia
Bert
I tried to download the file but it will not allow me as I am not an owner yet and hence cannot join the owners forum.
Hopefully they will email it to me directly or can you download it put it into the forum for all to see.

Diesel
Ecos 50200, Software 4.1.2 Marklin HO K track, EcosBoost, Traincontroller Gold V9.0,B2, All track power via EcosBoost Separate programing siding. Decoders- Lokpilot V2,Lokpilotv3, Lok V4, LoksoundV4, Loksound V5, Marklin MFX and Marklin Fx. Internet Exlporer 11.0, Win 7
Offline DasBert33  
#12 Posted : 16 April 2007 18:03:56(UTC)
DasBert33

Belgium   
Joined: 21/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,245
Here is the file:
http://users.telenet.be/bertdewil2/tmp/ecos_booster.pdf

I assume it is no problem for ESU to make this file available here... Anyway it should not be in my opinion.

Bert
Offline xxup  
#13 Posted : 17 April 2007 01:07:05(UTC)
xxup

Australia   
Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC)
Posts: 9,457
Location: Australia
That sure looks like common rail to me.. What's going on here???
Adrian
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Offline dntower85  
#14 Posted : 17 April 2007 01:34:54(UTC)
dntower85

United States   
Joined: 08/01/2006(UTC)
Posts: 2,218
Location: Shady Shores, TX - USA
on the booster.pdf - whats a lichttrafo? my translator doesn't work on that word, is that something that makes the common rail work?

but that looks like a common ground to me to.
DT
Now powered by ECoS II unit#2, RocRail
era - some time in the future when the space time continuum is disrupted and ICE 3 Trains run on the same rails as the Adler and BR18's.
Offline Caplin  
#15 Posted : 17 April 2007 02:34:24(UTC)
Caplin


Joined: 23/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 2,497
Location: Denmark
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by dntower85
<br />on the booster.pdf - whats a lichttrafo? my translator doesn't work on that word, is that something that makes the common rail work?


Licht in german means light (lamps) in english. Smile
Regards,
Benny - Outsider and MFDWPL

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Offline diesel  
#16 Posted : 17 April 2007 02:40:31(UTC)
diesel

Australia   
Joined: 03/10/2005(UTC)
Posts: 284
Location: Australia
Bert

That diagram certainly sheds new light on the situation.
The rails are not isolated and there is a common connnection between the boosters, exactly what I have now except I have a combination of 6017 and 6015 boosters.

Also the common from the ecos is connected to the common from the old boosters therefore same common all the way. This completely contradicts the manual.!!

I presume we will still need the rocker for the transition point from the old to the new between circuits 1 and 2 - no double skiis here - hmmmm.

Now I note that the date of the Booster wiring diagram is Oct 2006 and the date of my ECos manual is the same. There is a lack of communication somewhere

But what about DT's question - what is the Lichttrafo ? and is it needed.

One other point. I presume the old switchboards Marklin # 6041 still operate via the Ecosniffer. Point 7.8 in the manual.

If there any other wiring diagrams relating to Marklin in the owners forum could you you publish those also. This kind of info should be in the manual.

Thanks for all your help.

Diesel
Ecos 50200, Software 4.1.2 Marklin HO K track, EcosBoost, Traincontroller Gold V9.0,B2, All track power via EcosBoost Separate programing siding. Decoders- Lokpilot V2,Lokpilotv3, Lok V4, LoksoundV4, Loksound V5, Marklin MFX and Marklin Fx. Internet Exlporer 11.0, Win 7
Offline DasBert33  
#17 Posted : 17 April 2007 10:09:32(UTC)
DasBert33

Belgium   
Joined: 21/01/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,245
Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by diesel
Also the common from the ecos is connected to the common from the old boosters therefore same common all the way. This completely contradicts the manual.!!

True,

But I believe there is a new version of the manual in the works. Hopefully all these things will be clarified.

Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by diesel
I presume we will still need the rocker for the transition point from the old to the new between circuits 1 and 2 - no double skiis here - hmmmm.


Not sure anymore actually. It doesnt say so in the pdf

Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by diesel
But what about DT's question - what is the Lichttrafo ? and is it needed.


It's a seperate transformer for accesory lights and stuff. Just to indicate you may not short the yellow 'L' and the red 'B' wires.

Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by diesel
One other point. I presume the old switchboards Marklin # 6041 still operate via the Ecosniffer. Point 7.8 in the manual.


Yes, BUT i've noticed that the sniffer not always works reliably for switches and signals. Sometimes it misses commands. It might improve with newer versions of the firmware, but as it is now, I wouldn't use them for automation. Controlling locos over the sniffer works fine, since loco commands are continiously repeated.

Quote:
[size=1" face="Verdana" id="quote]quote:Originally posted by diesel
If there any other wiring diagrams relating to Marklin in the owners forum could you you publish those also. This kind of info should be in the manual.

Thanks for all your help.

Diesel



No problem.

I think this was the only schematic available.

Bert
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