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Is it a problem ? Wiring the "B" and "O" the wrong way around
 Joined: 03/10/2010(UTC) Posts: 1,299 Location: Cape Town, South Africa
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Hello all,
A friend of mine has a large HO C-track layout.
He is running CS3+, 40 turnouts, 20 signals, 20 trains with smoke and lights, circuit tracks with s88 modules, k83, M83, etc.
We are about to extend the layout, and we are looking at getting a booster to power the new staging yard on the layout, including turntable and uncouplers, 8 trains in the yard, etc
However ....
I have observed that the "B" and the "O" connections are the wrong way around connected from his CS3+ to his layout.
The "B" wire from the back of the CS3+ is connected to the outer rails, and the "O" wire is connected to the centre studs.
In order to get the turnout decoders to work, he has connected the red wire from the decoder to the "O" of the track, and the brown wire to the "B".
In order to get the k83 and M83 to work, he has similarly connected the red connection from the k83/M83 to the "O' and the brown to the "B".
The 24994 circuit tracks are connected to the track normally, ie. the connection made by the lever from rail "O" to s88 activates the feedback.
Everything seems to be working fine as it is.
(with the possible exception that some locomotives seem to not smoke properly)
We are now preparing to connect the booster to the new staging yard on the layout.
The booster will similarly have to be connected with the "B" and the "O" swapped around.
And all of the accessories k83/M83 will similarly be swapped around in the staging yard.
I am pausing at this moment, and wondering whether we should reverse all of this and correct the "B" and the "O" to be the correct way around.
It will require lifting some ballast of the track and getting to about 10 turnout decoders, and swapping the red and brown wiring around.
It will require swapping the red and brown plugs on the k83/M83 devices (this should be easy).
We shall need to swap around the signal connections for red and brown (should also be quite easy - these are connected to the BUS wire.)
I would be very grateful for your thoughts.
Do you foresee a problem with the layout once the booster is connected ?
Do you consider it a problem with circuit tracks from all over the track connected to s88 ?
What other issues could be experienced if we continue just the way it is ?
What would you do in this situation ?
Regards
John
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 Joined: 05/09/2014(UTC) Posts: 686 Location: NEW HAMPSHIRE, Somersworth
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I did the same thing when I first powered a learning layout and had some weird problems until I changed the wiring. Some electrical components such as transistors are designed to work with current flow in only one direction. By the way, the color of the wires does not necessarily indicate which one is the power but where the wire connects to the CS3. The wire color just visually confirms the connection.
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 2 users liked this useful post by rhfil
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Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,463
Location: DE-NW
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Some loco decoders will not work when red and brown are swapped.
And then there is the issue with digitally controlled smoke generators you already observed. Similarly, lights might be darker on locos with Delta or C90 decoder and maybe show more flickering.
It might be a good idea to rectify the wiring before expanding big style. |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS  |
4 users liked this useful post by H0
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 Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC) Posts: 9,603 Location: Australia
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If it is consistently wired incorrectly, then the easiest way to resolve this is to continue to do the wrong thing (red on 0 and brown on B), but swap the wires at the CS3. |
Adrian Australia flag by abFlags.com |
3 users liked this useful post by xxup
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Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,463
Location: DE-NW
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Originally Posted by: xxup  If it is consistently wired incorrectly, then the easiest way to resolve this is to continue to do the wrong thing (red on 0 and brown on B), but swap the wires at the CS3. Problem here are the turnout decoders that require rewiring. |
Regards Tom --- "In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS |
4 users liked this useful post by H0
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Joined: 03/10/2010(UTC) Posts: 1,299 Location: Cape Town, South Africa
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Hi all This is an update to my earlier post on this subject. After a little deliberation, we decided to correct all of the wiring on the layout before the new staging yard extensions get added. That meant primarily lifting all of the turnouts and crossings which have decoders mounted under the road bed, and swapping the red and the brown wires to attach them to their correct spades. There were about 20 of these to do. (see pictures attached)   Then we swapped the plugs on the k83 boxes and switched the wires on the M83 boxes. That was straight forward. Then we swapped the wires on the signalling systems, that was also pretty straight forward. And lastly (but not least !), we swapped the "B" and "O" wires on the back of the CS3+. I am delighted to report that everything worked as expected on the layout, and we had massive joy at the sight of the steamers steaming away around the layout. Phew, what a difference it makes , just look at all that lovely smoke, where before the change-over we would hardly see a whisp of smoke. I am now also confident that connecting the booster can be done safely, and the s88 feedback modules will work as designed. Video of trains running on the layoutConclusion :Yes, it makes a huge difference to have the "B" and "O": wires connected the right way around on the layout. Thanks for all of your interest in this, and for your comments. Regards John
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4 users liked this useful post by Johnvr
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Joined: 03/01/2003(UTC) Posts: 5,188 Location: Southern New Jersey, USA
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Major job but worth the effort. However could you not just cut the turnout wires under the layout and reverse them?
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2 users liked this useful post by rschaffr
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Joined: 05/09/2014(UTC) Posts: 686 Location: NEW HAMPSHIRE, Somersworth
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If he is using decoders in the turnouts none of the wires go under the layout as all are just within the bottom of the turnouts.
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2 users liked this useful post by rhfil
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Joined: 03/10/2010(UTC) Posts: 1,299 Location: Cape Town, South Africa
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The problem was that there were about 20 of these 74460 decoders where the red and brown wires were attached the wrong way around.  Only solution was to dig up the track, reverse the wires, and then re-lay the track. For the turnouts using k83 and M83, that was a simple switch around. It actually took me about 4 hours altogether. And then I had some switch motors which were not working both ways, so I did the little solder solution on the motor micro switch to get these to work properly. A good old maintenance service for all of the turnouts. All in, it was a day's work ! Regards John
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Joined: 04/02/2021(UTC) Posts: 498 Location: USA
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Glad you did and great lesson about correct wiring. (I had to resolve my own wiring issue where old analog wiring is not rated for high amperage digital). Ben Originally Posted by: Johnvr Hi all This is an update to my earlier post on this subject. After a little deliberation, we decided to correct all of the wiring on the layout before the new staging yard extensions get added. That meant primarily lifting all of the turnouts and crossings which have decoders mounted under the road bed, and swapping the red and the brown wires to attach them to their correct spades. There were about 20 of these to do. (see pictures attached) Then we swapped the plugs on the k83 boxes and switched the wires on the M83 boxes. That was straight forward. Then we swapped the wires on the signalling systems, that was also pretty straight forward. And lastly (but not least !), we swapped the "B" and "O" wires on the back of the CS3+. I am delighted to report that everything worked as expected on the layout, and we had massive joy at the sight of the steamers steaming away around the layout. Phew, what a difference it makes , just look at all that lovely smoke, where before the change-over we would hardly see a whisp of smoke. I am now also confident that connecting the booster can be done safely, and the s88 feedback modules will work as designed. Video of trains running on the layoutConclusion :Yes, it makes a huge difference to have the "B" and "O": wires connected the right way around on the layout. Thanks for all of your interest in this, and for your comments. Regards John |
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2 users liked this useful post by BenP
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