C track turnouts - Short circuit on turnouts Share  Email this topic  LinkBack Topic URL  Retweet this Topic  Share Topic on Google+  Like this Topic  Share on Facebook  Digg this Topic  Reddit this Topic  Share on Tumblr Options  Watch this topic  Print this topic View » Normal Threaded

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Giovanni Carboni		#1 Posted : 01 January 2025 18:08:16(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 08/03/2015(UTC) Posts: 20 Location: Toscana, Pisa		Hello folks! I am a newcomer. I setup a small switching layout using C track with 24611/12 turnouts. I noticed that all my three locos produce a short circuit when moving on the curved leg. This happens on four of the total five turnouts in the layout. Two locos are old models but one is a small 3-axles diesel which is practically new and the shoe seems correctly placed. The short lasts for about 5 mm of moving. I don't remember having serious problems until I used analog control (perhaps because of the higher speeds) but now with digital control it is very annoying. Any suggestion?
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rhfil		#2 Posted : 01 January 2025 19:35:15(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 05/09/2014(UTC) Posts: 674 Location: NEW HAMPSHIRE, Somersworth		Observe one of the locos as it goes through the switch to see why the short is occurring. Is it the bogies or the slider or the wheels? That will indicate what you need to work on.
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Johnvr		#3 Posted : 01 January 2025 19:57:29(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 03/10/2010(UTC) Posts: 1,291 Location: Cape Town, South Africa		Hello Giovanni From my experience, I have found that older Marklin locomotives have a slightly narrower wheel spacing and you have to make the wheel spacing a little bit wider in order to use them on C-track. I use a small screw driver to adjust the wheel spacing, making it a little bit wider. Before you do this, take a piece of straight C-track in your hand, and place the locomotive wheels on the C-track. Hold it up to your eyes, and look carefully at the width of the wheels compared to the width of the C-track. Is it loose ? Is there too much distance in the gap ? If there is too much of a gap, then the wheels short-circuit on the turnouts. It could be the main drive wheels or it could be the bogey wheels. Regards John
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Copenhagen		#4 Posted : 01 January 2025 20:24:21(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC) Posts: 492 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark		One thing that I have noticed with some C turnouts and some non Maerklin locomotives is that the slider can touch the tounge in the turnout (the tolerances in C track moving parts are a bit too high sometimes probably) thereby causing shorts. You can check by placing a thin strip of scotch tape on the part of the tongue that the slider moves over and see if it helps. A solution can be putting a thin layer of nail polish on the metal. Nail polish can be removed again, just don't get acetone on the plastic of the C track.
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marklinist5999		#5 Posted : 01 January 2025 22:59:53(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC) Posts: 3,865 Location: Michigan, Troy		Yes, and also some pickup shoes can rise higher in the turnout and the top edge shorts on the loco bottom or axle
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Giovanni Carboni		#6 Posted : 01 January 2025 23:40:21(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 08/03/2015(UTC) Posts: 20 Location: Toscana, Pisa		Originally Posted by: Copenhagen One thing that I have noticed with some C turnouts and some non Maerklin locomotives is that the slider can touch the tounge in the turnout (the tolerances in C track moving parts are a bit too high sometimes probably) thereby causing shorts. You can check by placing a thin strip of scotch tape on the part of the tongue that the slider moves over and see if it helps. A solution can be putting a thin layer of nail polish on the metal. Nail polish can be removed again, just don't get acetone on the plastic of the C track. I followed your suggestion: a short length of tape on the tongue (?) avoids the short but this does not look to be a definitive solution. In addition this will probably worsen the current pickup. Nail polish will wear out. It's a good method to diagnose the problem however.
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Giovanni Carboni		#7 Posted : 01 January 2025 23:51:36(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 08/03/2015(UTC) Posts: 20 Location: Toscana, Pisa		Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 Yes, and also some pickup shoes can rise higher in the turnout and the top edge shorts on the loco bottom or axle Checked that, but itsn't the case
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Giovanni Carboni		#8 Posted : 01 January 2025 23:53:07(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 08/03/2015(UTC) Posts: 20 Location: Toscana, Pisa		Originally Posted by: Johnvr Hello Giovanni From my experience, I have found that older Marklin locomotives have a slightly narrower wheel spacing and you have to make the wheel spacing a little bit wider in order to use them on C-track. I use a small screw driver to adjust the wheel spacing, making it a little bit wider. Before you do this, take a piece of straight C-track in your hand, and place the locomotive wheels on the C-track. Hold it up to your eyes, and look carefully at the width of the wheels compared to the width of the C-track. Is it loose ? Is there too much distance in the gap ? If there is too much of a gap, then the wheels short-circuit on the turnouts. It could be the main drive wheels or it could be the bogey wheels. Regards John Unfortunately the problem is in the pickup shoe.
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Copenhagen		#9 Posted : 02 January 2025 00:02:24(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC) Posts: 492 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark		About the reduction of conductivity: It will only reduce conductivity for a short length on one of the two ground tracks that the AC wheels rely on, and only when going straight through the turnout. The longevity of the solution: Good quality (electric) tape (maybe colored for visibility) carefully placed on cleaned track could last for a long time. If nail polish doesn't last some other laquer or paint might be better suited (and can still be scraped off if needed).
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Giovanni Carboni		#10 Posted : 02 January 2025 08:44:30(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 08/03/2015(UTC) Posts: 20 Location: Toscana, Pisa		Originally Posted by: Copenhagen About the reduction of conductivity: It will only reduce conductivity for a short length on one of the two ground tracks that the AC wheels rely on, and only when going straight through the turnout. The longevity of the solution: Good quality (electric) tape (maybe colored for visibility) carefully placed on cleaned track could last for a long time. If nail polish doesn't last some other laquer or paint might be better suited (and can still be scraped off if needed). I will try, thanks. But what could be the reason? Is that a defect in the locos or in the turnouts? I don't want to buy a new loco just to check if it works ok. I wonder if the problem is worsened by the digital operation, where a short circuit even of extremely short duration knocks out the power supply, which then stays off even when the short is removed.
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Goofy		#11 Posted : 02 January 2025 09:54:02(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC) Posts: 9,273		Locomotives decoder are sensible when it happens wrong. The problem with the Märklins track are turnouts and stud contacts. I too did have problem by use K-track turnout and it feels uncomfort every time a loco drive through the turnouts.
		H0 DCC = Digital Command Control
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Copenhagen		#12 Posted : 02 January 2025 11:04:47(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC) Posts: 492 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark		Originally Posted by: Giovanni Carboni Originally Posted by: Copenhagen About the reduction of conductivity: It will only reduce conductivity for a short length on one of the two ground tracks that the AC wheels rely on, and only when going straight through the turnout. The longevity of the solution: Good quality (electric) tape (maybe colored for visibility) carefully placed on cleaned track could last for a long time. If nail polish doesn't last some other laquer or paint might be better suited (and can still be scraped off if needed). I will try, thanks. But what could be the reason? Is that a defect in the locos or in the turnouts? I don't want to buy a new loco just to check if it works ok. I wonder if the problem is worsened by the digital operation, where a short circuit even of extremely short duration knocks out the power supply, which then stays off even when the short is removed. I just checked on my layout. I have only had to do the isolation two or maybe three places. It may actually not be the tongue that makes the short when the slider glides over it. It can also be the short piece of track between the tongue and the frog in the turnout. In "short" any piece of conductive material that the slider has be lifted over, and not touch. Why it happens? I guess it is a quite delicate system so that if the locomotives are slightly out of specification because of wear and tear or because of being from a non Maerklin factory these things happen. And also some C track turnouts may be more sensitive than other because of tolerances in the production process.
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Giovanni Carboni		#13 Posted : 02 January 2025 11:43:48(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 08/03/2015(UTC) Posts: 20 Location: Toscana, Pisa		Originally Posted by: Copenhagen Originally Posted by: Giovanni Carboni Originally Posted by: Copenhagen I just checked on my layout. I have only had to do the isolation two or maybe three places. It may actually not be the tongue that makes the short when the slider glides over it. It can also be the short piece of track between the tongue and the frog in the turnout. In "short" any piece of conductive material that the slider has be lifted over, and not touch. Why it happens? I guess it is a quite delicate system so that if the locomotives are slightly out of specification because of wear and tear or because of being from a non Maerklin factory these things happen. And also some C track turnouts may be more sensitive than other because of tolerances in the production process. Thanks. All the locos are Marklin, but only one (Diesel 36501) is a recent model. I will try to apply the tape and report what is the result
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Giovanni Carboni		#14 Posted : 02 January 2025 13:51:18(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 08/03/2015(UTC) Posts: 20 Location: Toscana, Pisa		Originally Posted by: Copenhagen I just checked on my layout. I have only had to do the isolation two or maybe three places. It may actually not be the tongue that makes the short when the slider glides over it. It can also be the short piece of track between the tongue and the frog in the turnout. Yes, that's the case for me. I understand that those short tracks are called closure rails.
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rhfil		#15 Posted : 02 January 2025 14:27:04(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 05/09/2014(UTC) Posts: 674 Location: NEW HAMPSHIRE, Somersworth		I am not sure what you are calling the "tongue". Is it the slider which is located under the engine or tender and makes contact with the studs in the center of the track to provide power? If so we have observed the problem with engines that have sliders that are slightly crooked. Odd that you have three engines with the same problem. That would lead me to wonder if the problem is the switch unless it happens at every switch. If it does I would remove the slider on the diesel and play with it a bit. It needs to have a slight curve down and be sprung equally on both ends.
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Copenhagen		#16 Posted : 02 January 2025 14:56:36(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC) Posts: 492 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark		The different parts of a turnout may have different names in different parts of the world. The tongue is the track part that moves from side to side directing the train to either straight trough or to the side. On the drawing here: http://www.railroadfaste...ilway-turnout-types.html it's called the point and switch rail. In the drawing further down it's called point blades. The closure rails can also cause shorts when the slider/pick up shoe moves across. In the illustration here: https://civilexpresso.wo...28/points-and-crossings/ it's called tongue rail.
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marklinist5999		#17 Posted : 02 January 2025 15:05:41(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC) Posts: 3,865 Location: Michigan, Troy		Here they say Frogs and Points.
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Copenhagen		#18 Posted : 02 January 2025 15:18:13(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 23/04/2019(UTC) Posts: 492 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark		As a side node we can also have problems in C track double slips and three way switches. If short locomotives don't have big enough wheel flanges they might lose connection to the ground connection located in the bottom of the track where part of the switch has plastic tracks instead of metal ones.
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rhfil		#19 Posted : 02 January 2025 15:51:30(UTC) Retweet
Joined: 05/09/2014(UTC) Posts: 674 Location: NEW HAMPSHIRE, Somersworth		I have a number of locomotives of varying ages from mm to mfx+ and a variety of straight switches on my layouts and on the club layout and had only one problem with a short on one switch on the club layout which was caused by the front bogie on a steamer. It was solved by adding tension on the spring that pushed the front bogie down.
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