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Offline rdn0609  
#1 Posted : 15 December 2024 20:00:05(UTC)
rdn0609

Sweden   
Joined: 29/11/2024(UTC)
Posts: 6
Location: Uppsala
Hello experts, I have a basic analog layout with 10VA blue metal transformer (old) with a few analog locos which run fine. Now I got hands on a digital loco, which seems to run fine on the analog layout. However, I don’t know how to change the direction of this digital loco to run it reverse.
Any suggestions? Is it even possible to reverse?
I know it shouldn’t be the pulse as there is no spring reverse setup inside it.

Thanks
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Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 15 December 2024 20:12:10(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,432
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: rdn0609 Go to Quoted Post
I know it shouldn’t be the pulse as there is no spring reverse setup inside it.
You need a pulse to change the direction.
But the pulse from blue transformers with metal case can be way too high and might damage the decoder.
And the 10 VA is known for very high reversing voltages.

If the loco manual says that a 6646 or 6647 must be used, take that warning serious.

BTW: What loco/decoder are we talking about?
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline rdn0609  
#3 Posted : 15 December 2024 20:20:47(UTC)
rdn0609

Sweden   
Joined: 29/11/2024(UTC)
Posts: 6
Location: Uppsala
Thanks HO, it’s a märklin 3065. I’m not sure about the decoder inside it, will come back after checking.
Offline river6109  
#4 Posted : 15 December 2024 20:50:37(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,873
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
Its not going to be case of if it will destroy your decoder by trying to reverse the loco with your current setup

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
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Offline H0  
#5 Posted : 16 December 2024 08:24:58(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,432
Location: DE-NW
The 3065 was analogue ex works.
With an unidentified retrofit decoder, better play it safe: assume that the reversing voltage should be below 28.28 V, the documented limit for recent decoders.
I won't use transformers that give more than 26 V to reverse digital locos.

You might find that the decoder has DIP switches for address settings. Those older decoders usually can handle the reversing voltages from blue transformers, but there is no guarantee.

Tip: Apply reversing voltage as short as possible. Digital locos show no reaction to the reversing pulse.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline 1borna  
#6 Posted : 16 December 2024 21:30:36(UTC)
1borna

Croatia   
Joined: 21/12/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,478
Location: Hrvatska
UserPostedImage
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Offline franciscohg  
#7 Posted : 17 December 2024 04:41:15(UTC)
franciscohg

Chile   
Joined: 10/07/2002(UTC)
Posts: 3,298
Location: Patagonia
Nice and clarifying picture.
A question, how much is the household voltage in Croatia?
Still 220 or have you moved to 240?
Regards
UserPostedImage German trains era I-II and selected III, era depends on the mood, mostly Maerklin but i can be heretic if needed XD, heresy is no longer an issue.. LOL
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Offline 1borna  
#8 Posted : 17 December 2024 20:33:58(UTC)
1borna

Croatia   
Joined: 21/12/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,478
Location: Hrvatska
The current voltage is about 230 volts.
UserPostedImage
I tried a newer small transformer designed for 230v, and it gives too much.
UserPostedImage
Even an ancient large transformer gives a slightly lower value (but still too high)
UserPostedImage
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Offline H0  
#9 Posted : 18 December 2024 00:04:20(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,432
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: 1borna Go to Quoted Post
Even an ancient large transformer gives a slightly lower value (but still too high)
We still haven't seen a picture of the decoder.
28.28 V is the limit for some modern decoders, older decoders and recent decoders are more robust.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline FastEddie  
#10 Posted : 18 December 2024 20:16:01(UTC)
FastEddie

United States   
Joined: 09/07/2023(UTC)
Posts: 37
Location: Delaware, Long Neck
If you are going to buy Digital locos and run them on an analog layout (which most of us old timers eventually do) its best to convert to the newer white transformers. I bought a Digital loco for my son (who runs only Digital) and when he was at my house we tested it on my analog layout using the older blue tranformers. After he got it home, he found out it didn't work because we toasted the chip when reversing the loco - DON'T RISK IT - unless you have an endless supply of money! Crying

ED
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Offline BenP  
#11 Posted : 19 December 2024 18:39:26(UTC)
BenP

United States   
Joined: 04/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 477
Location: USA
Originally Posted by: 1borna Go to Quoted Post
UserPostedImage



Don't use for digital. Over 28V likely damages decoder.
Ben
Digital M track layout with vintage rolling stock and accessories controlled by CS3+Rocrail; small Z scale layout.
https://youtube.com/play...0kgVYbh0CeDTF-bYXoD_2-V9
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Offline rdn0609  
#12 Posted : 16 January 2025 15:13:11(UTC)
rdn0609

Sweden   
Joined: 29/11/2024(UTC)
Posts: 6
Location: Uppsala
IMG_5226.jpegIMG_5225.jpeg

Hello all, thanks a ton for all your inputs. And apologies for a very late comeback as I was away.

So here is the attached image of the inside chip that I can find on the mentioned loco.

As I said earlier, I am very new to this and have used only hardcore analog small locos on my setup with 10 VA transformer.

With this, I have the following questions:
1. Which one would be the safest transformer to operate this one?
2. Is there a possibility to use this on the 10 VA transformer?

Thanks
/Raj
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Offline mike c  
#13 Posted : 17 January 2025 18:30:10(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 8,216
Location: Montreal, QC
Can you take a photo from the other side of the circuit board as well?
Your safest option is to buy a 66470 (the newest 230VAC) model. This will allow you to reverse both analog and digital locomotives in analog operation and can still be used to power accessories should you at some point convert to Central or Mobile Station (Digital)
As far as the old 1960s metal blue transformer, those transformers are known to have issues with deterioration of wire insulation and are considered a shock hazard. You should discontinue use of that model unless wearing shock proof gloves when operating if the wiring has not been replaced.
Also, take into consideration that older model blue transformers (210-220VAC) now put out operating voltage in excess of 16VAC due to the standardization of voltage at 230.

Thanks

Mike C
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Offline rdn0609  
#14 Posted : 21 January 2025 15:26:44(UTC)
rdn0609

Sweden   
Joined: 29/11/2024(UTC)
Posts: 6
Location: Uppsala
IMG_5247.jpeg

Thank you Mike.
Attached here is the other side of the circuit board.
I cannot understand anything seeing this board unfortunately. Any clarity is greatly appreciated!

Also a follow up question on the new transformer 66470 as mentioned earlier.
Would that allow me to run all my older analog models of locomotives without any central station?

Thanks.
Raj
Offline mike c  
#15 Posted : 22 January 2025 17:42:02(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 8,216
Location: Montreal, QC
As I suspected, that looks more like some kind of electronic reverse unit rather than a digital decoder. I don't see the dip switches that I would normally expect to find on a 6080/6090 decoder nor do I see a circuit board with a plugged in decoder that I would expect from ESU, Zimo, etc.
This locomotive should reverse when it detects the inversion pulse.

As far as the 66470 transformer, this would allow you to safely operate all your analog, delta and digital locomotives in analog mode without putting any decoders at risk. You can still use your older transformer to provide power for signals, layout lights, etc.
Analog, unlike digital, controls the track and not individual locomotives, so any locomotive on the track would respond to changes of speed or direction.

Regards

Mike C
Offline rdn0609  
#16 Posted : 22 January 2025 19:10:35(UTC)
rdn0609

Sweden   
Joined: 29/11/2024(UTC)
Posts: 6
Location: Uppsala
Thanks a lot Mike!

I will try to get a Märklin 66470 transformer to avoid any damage to these kind of locos.

Thank you all for the inputs provided here!

Regards,
Raj
Offline kiwiAlan  
#17 Posted : 22 January 2025 23:42:45(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,454
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
As I suspected, that looks more like some kind of electronic reverse unit rather than a digital decoder. I don't see the dip switches that I would normally expect to find on a 6080/6090 decoder nor do I see a circuit board with a plugged in decoder that I would expect from ESU, Zimo, etc.


I think it is a home brew decoder. It uses a PIC microcontroller, but the wiring is too heavy gauge to be a commercially available item. It will set its address using a method similar to what marklin decoders do with a 6021 I would guess, or maybe it has been designed to be set on a programming track.
Offline bph  
#18 Posted : 23 January 2025 12:43:45(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 1,143
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
As I suspected, that looks more like some kind of electronic reverse unit rather than a digital decoder. I don't see the dip switches that I would normally expect to find on a 6080/6090 decoder nor do I see a circuit board with a plugged in decoder that I would expect from ESU, Zimo, etc.


I think it is a home brew decoder. It uses a PIC microcontroller, but the wiring is too heavy gauge to be a commercially available item. It will set its address using a method similar to what marklin decoders do with a 6021 I would guess, or maybe it has been designed to be set on a programming track.


It might be a Uhlenbrock 75200 Decoder or some variation of it. at least it looks similar to this: https://www.ricardo.ch/de/a/original-uhlenbrock-75200-decoder-fuer-ac-allstrommotoren-1261610152/
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Offline mbarreto  
#19 Posted : 23 January 2025 15:12:41(UTC)
mbarreto

Portugal   
Joined: 18/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,333
Originally Posted by: rdn0609 Go to Quoted Post
Thanks a lot Mike!

I will try to get a Märklin 66470 transformer to avoid any damage to these kind of locos.

Thank you all for the inputs provided here!

Regards,
Raj


Hello Raj,

There is a more recent transformer, the 66471:

Märklin 66471

From what i understand, the difference is in the on/off switch in the cable.

There is also an older version, 6647, that is not protected against have the 230V in the primary (that in this situation is acting as the secondary) when the 16V is being applied in the secondary (that in such a
situation is acting as the primary). This one is usually a lot cheaper in ebay. I have this version.

Miguel



Best regards,
Miguel
Mostly Märklin H0.


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Offline mike c  
#20 Posted : 24 January 2025 05:58:33(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 8,216
Location: Montreal, QC
Originally Posted by: bph Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: mike c Go to Quoted Post
As I suspected, that looks more like some kind of electronic reverse unit rather than a digital decoder. I don't see the dip switches that I would normally expect to find on a 6080/6090 decoder nor do I see a circuit board with a plugged in decoder that I would expect from ESU, Zimo, etc.


I think it is a home brew decoder. It uses a PIC microcontroller, but the wiring is too heavy gauge to be a commercially available item. It will set its address using a method similar to what marklin decoders do with a 6021 I would guess, or maybe it has been designed to be set on a programming track.


It might be a Uhlenbrock 75200 Decoder or some variation of it. at least it looks similar to this: https://www.ricardo.ch/de/a/original-uhlenbrock-75200-decoder-fuer-ac-allstrommotoren-1261610152/


Good call.
The circuit board does seem to be an Uhlenbrock decoder very similar to the one shown in the Ricardo listing. I had never seen one before.

Regards

Mike C
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