 Joined: 05/03/2014(UTC) Posts: 704 Location: Finland
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Hi, I was just eight days in Helsinki University Hospital where I had open heart surgery. Aortha flap was replaced by cows similar flap. In the mean time my Märkin 3682 had developed a problem  When changing direction it only hurdles fast forward. If it would be analog I could fix it but it is Delta Digital. What should I look first and how? Cheers Åke
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 1 user liked this useful post by Br502362
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 Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC) Posts: 3,889 Location: Michigan, Troy
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Glad you are well and recovered 😊. Did the surgeon have to operate thorasic, or laparoscopic?
It sounds like the decoder is acting like a digital one does on an analog system. Full speed with no control. Or rather, just the opposite. Does the decoder have dip switches? If all are set to off, then it is in analog mode.
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1 user liked this useful post by marklinist5999
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 Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC) Posts: 3,562 Location: Paris, France
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Hi Åke I hope that by now your are well and please stay that way. The 3682 is a 1991 digital BR 221 with inertia simulation (masx speed + inertia adjustment, standard address setting through a "Mausklavier" - same address setting table for all Märklin locos. The manual is here https://static.maerklin....d2603a7e571434541777.pdfIf you have a CS2, CS3 or MS2 you may ask to search for the address. Worse come to worse, you may change the decoder with an mLD3 or even add sound with an mSD3 Here is the Märklin reference setting for all their locos ("Kodiertabelle" = encoding tables)  Marklin Codiertabelle.pdf (1,929kb) downloaded 23 time(s).Cheers Jean |
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1 user liked this useful post by JohnjeanB
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Joined: 05/03/2014(UTC) Posts: 704 Location: Finland
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Originally Posted by: marklinist5999  Glad you are well and recovered 😊. Did the surgeon have to operate thorasic, or laparoscopic?
It sounds like the decoder is acting like a digital one does on an analog system. Full speed with no control. Or rather, just the opposite. Does the decoder have dip switches? If all are set to off, then it is in analog mode. Hi, Operation was thorasic and lasted five hours. All went well  Yes all dip switches are set off because my track in only analog. Cheers Åke
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1 user liked this useful post by Br502362
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Joined: 14/02/2024(UTC) Posts: 59 Location: Grand-Est, Alsace
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Originally Posted by: Br502362
Yes all dip switches are set off because my track in only analog.
Hi Åke. this might be the problem : since your loco is not a Delta but a digital 1st generation with c80 decoder, you have not to set the switches to "all off" : your decoder detects automatically if it's on an analogical or a digital layout. Old Decoders may not be able to function in address "0". Try to set an adress (see the adress table that Jean has linked, and that you will find also in the user's notice.) If this does not help, consider replacing the decoder, either by 2nd hand relais, or by inversion electronic (Uhlenbrock or 2nd hand Märklin parts), or by another decoder : if you want to keep the motor, you may choose between tams LD-W 42.2, Uhlenbrock 76200 old and expensive but not too bad, or Märklin 60906 - or a 2nd hand delta module. For using other decoders, you need to change the motor parts to Märklin 60941. btw, Jean, this loco has no regulation for speed and acceleration : the notice is the same for 3382 (analogical standard), 3582 (analogical with regulation 5 stars) and 3682 (digital c80). The five-stars-model has regulation, the digital has not.
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1 user liked this useful post by Wolfram_Stn
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 Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC) Posts: 9,593 Location: Australia
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Hello Åke
It is great to hear that you are okay after such a major operation.
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Adrian Australia flag by abFlags.com |
1 user liked this useful post by xxup
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Joined: 15/03/2003(UTC) Posts: 9,593 Location: Australia
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Originally Posted by: Br502362
Yes all dip switches are set off because my track in only analog.
I think what the other guys are trying to say is that they know you have an analogue layout, but the reason that you can't go to reverse any more is that the decoder is no longer working fully. This sometimes happens as decoders, when they are pretending to be analogue, they don't handle that jolt of reverse very well. I had heaps of delta decoders, but they are in storage with the rest of my layout until we can find the money to build an annex to our small house. Hopefully, someone local can find one that they no longer want after they converted one of their locos to digital and send it you for the cost of postage. |
AdrianAustralia flag by abFlags.com |
2 users liked this useful post by xxup
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Joined: 05/03/2014(UTC) Posts: 704 Location: Finland
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Originally Posted by: xxup Originally Posted by: Br502362
Yes all dip switches are set off because my track in only analog.
I think what the other guys are trying to say is that they know you have an analogue layout, but the reason that you can't go to reverse any more is that the decoder is no longer working fully. This sometimes happens as decoders, when they are pretending to be analogue, they don't handle that jolt of reverse very well. I had heaps of delta decoders, but they are in storage with the rest of my layout until we can find the money to build an annex to our small house. Hopefully, someone local can find one that they no longer want after they converted one of their locos to digital and send it you for the cost of postage. Hi Adrian, That is what I also thought. Faulty delta decoder. I must visit out local Märklin dealer when I can drive car again (2 months ban) and buy one from him. Thanks to all from your help Cheers Åke
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Joined: 04/12/2013(UTC) Posts: 2,261 Location: Hobart, Australia
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Originally Posted by: Br502362 Hi,
I was just eight days in Helsinki University Hospital where I had open heart surgery.
Aortha flap was replaced by cows similar flap. In the mean time …
Cheers
Åke
Hi Åke, Sorry to hear of your health issues and pleased you are recovered and wholesome again  I hope Sissi is well also ?   she will enjoy your company during your restful convalescence . Regards, Philip
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1 user liked this useful post by PJMärklin
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Joined: 05/03/2014(UTC) Posts: 704 Location: Finland
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Originally Posted by: PJMärklin Originally Posted by: Br502362 Hi,
I was just eight days in Helsinki University Hospital where I had open heart surgery.
Aortha flap was replaced by cows similar flap. In the mean time …
Cheers
Åke
Hi Åke, Sorry to hear of your health issues and pleased you are recovered and wholesome again I hope Sissi is well also ? she will enjoy your company during your restful convalescence . Regards, Philip Hi Philip, Here is everything ok. Recovery is a slow process and I have three months sick leave. Small steps forward I walk two or three 15 minutes rounds every day. Everything goes as planned. Sissi and Waldo have been a great help. Funny that they have a hunch that I am not in normal shape so they act really carefully and don`t run inside the house as normally. Best regards Åke
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1 user liked this useful post by Br502362
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 Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC) Posts: 8,472 Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
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Originally Posted by: Wolfram_Stn Originally Posted by: Br502362
Yes all dip switches are set off because my track in only analog.
Hi Åke. this might be the problem : since your loco is not a Delta but a digital 1st generation with c80 decoder, It doesn't matter, but there can be differences in operation by having all switches off for analogue mode - e.g. changing the way the headlamp operates. All the Marklin Motorola decoders understand the 'all switches off = analogue mode' including the Delta ones with solder jumper address selection.
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1 user liked this useful post by kiwiAlan
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Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC) Posts: 3,562 Location: Paris, France
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Hi There is a misunderstanding. The loco 3682 is NOT a Delta If you look closely into its manual (see below) you will see that setting all switches to OFF is not allowed Åke, if you wish to use the loco on a conventional layout, you still MUST pick a valid address. Factory address was 48 with switches 1, 4, 7 set to ON and all others set to OFF. https://static.maerklin....d2603a7e571434541777.pdfCheers Jean |
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2 users liked this useful post by JohnjeanB
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Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC) Posts: 8,472 Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
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Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Hi There is a misunderstanding. The loco 3682 is NOT a Delta If you look closely into its manual (see below) you will see that setting all switches to OFF is not allowed Åke, if you wish to use the loco on a conventional layout, you still MUST pick a valid address. Factory address was 48 with switches 1, 4, 7 set to ON and all others set to OFF. https://static.maerklin....d2603a7e571434541777.pdfCheers Jean There is nothing in that manual that says you cannot set all switches to off for analogue mode. It just doesn't mention analogue mode at all. Sure you cannot use a digital address of 0, but I have yet to come across a C80 or C90 (which this manual shows) that cannot be set to analogue mode. It just won't do anything (may turn the headlights on) when put on a digital layout.
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1 user liked this useful post by kiwiAlan
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Joined: 05/03/2014(UTC) Posts: 704 Location: Finland
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Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Hi There is a misunderstanding. The loco 3682 is NOT a Delta If you look closely into its manual (see below) you will see that setting all switches to OFF is not allowed Åke, if you wish to use the loco on a conventional layout, you still MUST pick a valid address. Factory address was 48 with switches 1, 4, 7 set to ON and all others set to OFF. https://static.maerklin....d2603a7e571434541777.pdfCheers Jean Hi Jean, Tried the adress 48 but no success. It runs only forvards and when changing direction it hurdles forward with full speed. Cheers Åke
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Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC) Posts: 8,472 Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
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Originally Posted by: Br502362 Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Hi There is a misunderstanding. The loco 3682 is NOT a Delta If you look closely into its manual (see below) you will see that setting all switches to OFF is not allowed Åke, if you wish to use the loco on a conventional layout, you still MUST pick a valid address. Factory address was 48 with switches 1, 4, 7 set to ON and all others set to OFF. https://static.maerklin....d2603a7e571434541777.pdfCheers Jean Hi Jean, Tried the adress 48 but no success. It runs only forvards and when changing direction it hurdles forward with full speed. Cheers Åke That suggests the transistors that drive the motor have died short circuit. Only solution is to change the decoder.
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3 users liked this useful post by kiwiAlan
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Joined: 09/05/2011(UTC) Posts: 2,971 Location: Somewhere, But Nowhere Near Manchester, England
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Hi Åke,
Glad to know you are fit and well after the operation, and hope you will return to full health very soon.
All the best |
Don't look back, your not heading that way. |
1 user liked this useful post by GlennM
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 Joined: 30/08/2002(UTC) Posts: 1,288
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I also believe the c80 dekoder (Märklin 6080) has failed. However the root cause could be your transformer: Older transformers could damage digital decoders and delta units when performing the ”switch direction” command on the transformer. So, it would be helpful for us to learn what types of transformers you use? |
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1 user liked this useful post by PeFu
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Joined: 05/03/2014(UTC) Posts: 704 Location: Finland
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Originally Posted by: PeFu I also believe the c80 dekoder (Märklin 6080) has failed. However the root cause could be your transformer: Older transformers could damage digital decoders and delta units when performing the ”switch direction” command on the transformer. So, it would be helpful for us to learn what types of transformers you use? Hi PeFu, I have only white Märklin 6647 transformers. Åke
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Joined: 14/02/2024(UTC) Posts: 59 Location: Grand-Est, Alsace
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Originally Posted by: PeFu However the root cause could be your transformer: Older transformers could damage digital decoders and delta units when performing the ”switch direction” command on the transformer. I am very sorry, but this is Nonsense. c80 decoders are designed to function with "older transformers", since these "older transformers" were the only ones that existed when c80 decoders were designed, 40 years ago. In 40 years, we never heard of "older transformers" killing c80, c81, c90 decoders - for the simple reason that it never happened. The first decoders that died when used in analogical mode, were the programmable decoders furnished by ESU, with mfx protocole. This arrived by 2003, 2004 and filled the forums for some ten years. Fact is, this loco has been manufactured in 1991. Electronic parts, so as we do, suffer of aging, and will dysfunction at a moment - just by age. So, Åke will have to replace the decoder, either by another decoder for old Märklin motors or by an analogical inverter if he arrives to find one. Fact is also: all Märklin transformers are "weak", so when heavily charged the tension lowers, and the norm tension indicated on the plate is given under full charge.
Decoders charge much less the transformer than does a relay, so the tension is higher when inversing a decoder loco. Nothing dangerous, since c80/c90 are made for; Märklin engineers knew what to do.
Some types of transformer, especially the small types (10VA, 16VA) give higher tensions than others, but the 30VA types in plastic case are generally safe even with the first mfx decoders. On the other hand, it is not a guarantee at all to use only 6631 or 6647 types, even the actual type is not safe for any modern decoders - I had to pay the bill when my 6647 made smoke my little diesel, and now I separate strictly analogical functioning and locos with modern decoders. On my analogical layout, will roll only analogical locos, or locos with c80, c90, c90x - or delta. Decoders with micro switches, only.
Modern digital locomotives, only on the digital layout.
btw: Two items are absolutely prohibited for every digital loco and even for 3300-series locos : 6600 and 6699 !
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2 users liked this useful post by Wolfram_Stn
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Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC) Posts: 8,472 Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
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Originally Posted by: Wolfram_Stn Originally Posted by: PeFu However the root cause could be your transformer: Older transformers could damage digital decoders and delta units when performing the ”switch direction” command on the transformer. I am very sorry, but this is Nonsense. c80 decoders are designed to function with "older transformers", since these "older transformers" were the only ones that existed when c80 decoders were designed, 40 years ago. In 40 years, we never heard of "older transformers" killing c80, c81, c90 decoders - for the simple reason that it never happened. I have certainly killed c90 decoders using a plastic blue case transformer, using the reversing pulse. The problem was certainly identified before the programmable decoders became available, and the advice was to use only white cased transformers with any decoder fitted loco.
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1 user liked this useful post by kiwiAlan
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Joined: 14/02/2024(UTC) Posts: 59 Location: Grand-Est, Alsace
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Alan, are you sure you did not use a 6600 or 6699 (which have blue cases)? Or a 220V type on 240V network (even if this seems few risky!)? Because Märklin does not know about c90 decoders being killed by blue transformers... http://www.web-hgh.de/im...ig/std/6090/6090_sch.pdfhttps://www.maerklin-sam..._m_bda_67091oa0794se.pdfhttps://static.maerklin....870affb6101434542496.pdfI just have asked two specialists for Märklin electronic hardware, I will wait for their responses. But if you have any Märklin documents about c90 decoders not supporting the standard transformers of their development era, I am very keen to see them! Until then, I will continue to refer to Märklin Technik Tipp #207: https://www.maerklin.de/...faq/Technik-Tipp-207.pdfit says more or less (for official traduction ask to an assermented traductor or to Märklin): some decoders from former times were less resistant to higher tensions. So verify in your user notice. If it mentions explicitly 6647 or 6647 for analogical use, then do not use other types. Otherwise, you may use all types of transformers. (They forgot 6600 and 6699 that must not used with digital locos, not more than with all 33xx-locos...)
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Joined: 14/02/2024(UTC) Posts: 59 Location: Grand-Est, Alsace
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So, I will not miss to return you the answers I got. 1st, my two experts had no information about blue plastic transformers killing c90 decoders. One of them questioned the changing of power tension the EU imposed in the 90s, but as you are living in UK, Alan, you passed from 240V to 230V so this may not be the cause, since I suppose you used a 240V transformer ? *) The other said that nothing is impossible, and that you have to mesure the output voltage on non charged transformer to be sure. There may always be a single transformer out of range... but, generally, the c90 and c901 so as the delta and other c8x, are safe to be used with plastic box transformers. Avoid, indeed, the old metal models, because transformers of the 6117 family (6166 for 240V) do kill even zimo decoders which support up to 50V= (35Veff ~) ! *) I just found this thread and message saying that many people used 220V equipment on 240V... https://www.marklin-user...rs-in-Britain#post553909 This, coupled to a limit-of-range transformer, might explain killed c90 decoders. No offense, Alan, your experience is your experience but it really seems not to be a general problem. One day when we meet we will have a beer or other liquid together.
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