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Offline Timnomads  
#1 Posted : 19 August 2024 10:55:00(UTC)
Timnomads

Switzerland   
Joined: 16/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 301
Location: Grandvaux - Lausanne - Switzerland
Hi All

I am now in the planning stage for my layout, I have decided to use the open frame option and support the main track beds with risers.
to allow me make the many changes in height for my alpine pass railway. (Lotchberg ish).

I will need to run a ring main under the track, Can I use standard 3 core house wire which and the make breaks to link up to the track above.

3 core wire.jpg

My Concern is the 3 core wire will corrupt the digital signal, with each separate wire being very close.

Does anybody have any answer to this question. If there is a problem I will use 3 seperate wires to make the ring main.

Thx

Tim
Offline JohnjeanB  
#2 Posted : 19 August 2024 13:27:28(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,562
Location: Paris, France
Hi Tim
It must work.
On my layout, I used 2x2.5mm² for distributing the digital signal and it works fine.
The problem is with the connections (screw terminals are not ideal when searching for a short circuit)
Wiring is best in star-shape originating from the digital power source (CS3 or boosters)

Note: the same cable wire 2 wires exists also. Avoid using non-flexible cable (like in buildings)
Cheers
Jean
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by JohnjeanB
Offline rhfil  
#3 Posted : 19 August 2024 15:45:52(UTC)
rhfil

United States   
Joined: 05/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 676
Location: NEW HAMPSHIRE, Somersworth
Why not slit the covering and save one of the wires for some other use? I did the same with five wire telephone wire and only used the wires to power decouplers. The only problem you might encounter in not splitting the wires would arise with interference noise if for some reason you ran power on two of the three wires. Electronic noise can bleed outside the wires. That is why you can actually sense power in wires without actually coming into contact with the core.
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Offline Kiko  
#4 Posted : 20 August 2024 05:57:42(UTC)
Kiko

Canada   
Joined: 13/02/2017(UTC)
Posts: 159
Location: Ottawa, ON
Originally Posted by: Timnomads Go to Quoted Post
My Concern is the 3 core wire will corrupt the digital signal, with each separate wire being very close.

Hello Tim,

One additional comment to the above suggestions -- Make sure that your "power" feeds are not bunched together with your "digital signal" feeds. Also, if you use s88 feedback modules, then keep those wires in a separate group (i.e., not zip tied with the other wires). If you keep to this wiring approach, you won't have to worry about interference.

My simple $0.02 worth of advice.

Good luck,
Andry

Andry
// Marklin HO K track; ECoS; TrainController Gold; Marklin & ESU decoders; Arduino controlled Switches, Semaphores & Accessories (DCC); Win 11 //
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Kiko
Offline Timnomads  
#5 Posted : 20 August 2024 10:01:13(UTC)
Timnomads

Switzerland   
Joined: 16/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 301
Location: Grandvaux - Lausanne - Switzerland
Originally Posted by: Kiko Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Timnomads Go to Quoted Post
My Concern is the 3 core wire will corrupt the digital signal, with each separate wire being very close.

Hello Tim,

One additional comment to the above suggestions -- Make sure that your "power" feeds are not bunched together with your "digital signal" feeds. Also, if you use s88 feedback modules, then keep those wires in a separate group (i.e., not zip tied with the other wires). If you keep to this wiring approach, you won't have to worry about interference.

My simple $0.02 worth of advice.

Good luck,
Andry

Thanks Andry, one question, when you say power feed do you mean the connection to the wall socket 240v?
Tim



Offline rhfil  
#6 Posted : 20 August 2024 20:55:05(UTC)
rhfil

United States   
Joined: 05/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 676
Location: NEW HAMPSHIRE, Somersworth
There is no digital signal in the wire between the wall socket and the power supply the problem to be avoided is corrupting the digital signal that is being transmitted around the layout.
Offline Timnomads  
#7 Posted : 21 August 2024 00:16:39(UTC)
Timnomads

Switzerland   
Joined: 16/09/2015(UTC)
Posts: 301
Location: Grandvaux - Lausanne - Switzerland
Originally Posted by: rhfil Go to Quoted Post
There is no digital signal in the wire between the wall socket and the power supply the problem to be avoided is corrupting the digital signal that is being transmitted around the layout.


ok i will use 2 core wire, one for red and one for the brown
Tim

Offline PMPeter  
#8 Posted : 21 August 2024 01:50:58(UTC)
PMPeter

Canada   
Joined: 04/04/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,291
Location: Port Moody, BC
I ran 2 standard house wire cables around my layout. One 3c#14 AWG and one 2c#14 AWG. I used the conductors as follows:

3c cable
Red - track power feed (Maerklin red)
Black - track return (Maerklin brown)
White - catenary

2c cable
White - Lighting (Maerklin yellow)
Black - Lighting return (Maerklin brown) not really necessary but a nice to have. The two returns were joined at one location

I never had a problem with this setup.
Offline Kiko  
#9 Posted : 21 August 2024 06:31:33(UTC)
Kiko

Canada   
Joined: 13/02/2017(UTC)
Posts: 159
Location: Ottawa, ON
Originally Posted by: Timnomads Go to Quoted Post
Thanks Andry, one question, when you say power feed do you mean the connection to the wall socket 240v?

Hello Tim,

"Power" feeds include your 120/240V equipment feeds. However, there are also other "power" feeds that you'll have running under the layout. These are all the various voltages you'll need for lights, accessories (turnouts, semaphores, signals, motors, etc.). These "power" feeds should also be run in separate "bundles" from your "digital" feeds.

For ease of tracking and trouble shooting, I use "tie wraps" to bunch wires together and then run them in separate "bundles" under the layout. Attached is a printout of the various wires (colours) that I have running under my layout. Running specific colours makes it more expensive, but I found that it's worth the cost to save my sanity (and my hair) when troubleshooting. Blink

I've also attached some pictures of how I bundle and run my wiring under the layout. It's easier to do it as you build your layout and make sure to label everything -- you won't regret it.

Cheers and good luck,
Andry


Wiring Colours.jpg

Wiring 01.jpg

Wiring 02.jpg

Wiring 03.jpg

Wiring 04.jpg

Andry
// Marklin HO K track; ECoS; TrainController Gold; Marklin & ESU decoders; Arduino controlled Switches, Semaphores & Accessories (DCC); Win 11 //
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by Kiko
Offline marklinist5999  
#10 Posted : 21 August 2024 12:33:53(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 3,889
Location: Michigan, Troy
Andry, very neat professional wiring. Because I had good older power packs with both 16 volt and 12 volt outputs, I had to group things differently. Not the track power or signal or turnout decoders, but the lighting and motorized accessories. After construction was completed and I added a wind turbine, I motorized it with a 12 volt dc motor and only had my Blue large Marklin trafo left to connect it to. I used a rectifier for it so the speed can be regulated.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by marklinist5999
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