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Offline fabstar68  
#1 Posted : 27 June 2024 09:10:34(UTC)
fabstar68

Italy   
Joined: 14/12/2023(UTC)
Posts: 60
Location: Milan
hi all,

i need help setting up the following scenario with Rocrail, i will try to explain the details in order to make it as clear as possibile, and useful for others too. the scenarios are all for automatic mode

Single track, three blocks, left to right B1, B2, B3. Each block as its own 2 state signals at both + and - sides. I want that :
1) when Rocrail starts, in automatic mode, for each block that is free, the signals that let a train enter that block, be green, otherwise red. example. if B2 if free, then B1 signal to B2, and B3 signal to B2, must be green, otherwise red.
2) when a train sets B1, B2 or B3 as the next destination, then the chosen block signal from the other side must become red, to prevent other trains entering that block from the other side. Example : if a train is in B1, and sets B2 as the next destination, that the signal from B1 to B2 must become green, and the signal from B3 to B2 must become red
3) when a train leaves a block, the corresponding entry signal to the initial block must become red, and when the train leaves the destination block, it gets red. example. B1 leaves for B2. B1 signal to B2 becomes red. When the train leaves B2 (or get to B3 "IN" ?), then B1 signal to B2 becomes green again
4) if a train sets a block as next destination, and the exit signal of that block is green, then the train does not stop at that block but proceeds to the next one. example. B1 leaves for B2. B2 exit signal is green, meaning that B3 is free. then the train does not stop at B2 and goes to B3
5) if i define a signal that does not belong to a block, can i make rocrail check that signal for green before setting a block as next destination, if the route for that block passes through that signal ? note that i don't want a train stopping in front of this signal if it is red (there are not even sensors defined nearby), i just want to use it either manually, or as a command to become red / green in some routes if i want to.

6) contrary to point 1, i want that the signals of the blocks that are part of my main station are red by default. a train must always stop to the blocks of the station. those block exit signal (both directions) must become green only when a train leaves the station for another block, getting red when the train leaves, and remaing red.

thanks

Fab
Offline JohnjeanB  
#2 Posted : 27 June 2024 21:22:49(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,555
Location: Paris, France
Originally Posted by: fabstar68 Go to Quoted Post
hi all,

i need help setting up the following scenario with Rocrail, i will try to explain the details in order to make it as clear as possibile, and useful for others too. the scenarios are all for automatic mode

Single track, three blocks, left to right B1, B2, B3. Each block as its own 2 state signals at both + and - sides. I want that :
1) when Rocrail starts, in automatic mode, for each block that is free, the signals that let a train enter that block, be green, otherwise red. example. if B2 if free, then B1 signal to B2, and B3 signal to B2, must be green, otherwise red.
2) when a train sets B1, B2 or B3 as the next destination, then the chosen block signal from the other side must become red, to prevent other trains entering that block from the other side. Example : if a train is in B1, and sets B2 as the next destination, that the signal from B1 to B2 must become green, and the signal from B3 to B2 must become red
3) when a train leaves a block, the corresponding entry signal to the initial block must become red, and when the train leaves the destination block, it gets red. example. B1 leaves for B2. B1 signal to B2 becomes red. When the train leaves B2 (or get to B3 "IN" ?), then B1 signal to B2 becomes green again
4) if a train sets a block as next destination, and the exit signal of that block is green, then the train does not stop at that block but proceeds to the next one. example. B1 leaves for B2. B2 exit signal is green, meaning that B3 is free. then the train does not stop at B2 and goes to B3
5) if i define a signal that does not belong to a block, can i make rocrail check that signal for green before setting a block as next destination, if the route for that block passes through that signal ? note that i don't want a train stopping in front of this signal if it is red (there are not even sensors defined nearby), i just want to use it either manually, or as a command to become red / green in some routes if i want to.
6) contrary to point 1, i want that the signals of the blocks that are part of my main station are red by default. a train must always stop to the blocks of the station. those block exit signal (both directions) must become green only when a train leaves the station for another block, getting red when the train leaves, and remaing red.

Hi Fab

#1 This is standard with Rocrail (RR) when a 2 position signal is configured for each block and each side (so 6 signals in your case) . Just right-click on each block, go-to the SIGNAL Tab and you may associate 2 main signals (one for each direction) and 2 advance signals (one for each direction).

#2 This is standard by RR. The signals turn green when an itinerary can be found in fishbowl mode (no programmed schedules in use). So a train, in Blk1 ready to depart to blL2 will get the green light while on Blk2 the signal towards Blk1 is left red.

#3 I don't follow your reasoning: there is NO entry signal in a block but rather the signal of the preceeding block. Lets suppose the Blk1, Blk2, Blk3 direction. A train in Blk1 will get the green light if the route Blk1-Blk2 is authorised. The signal in Blk1 turns green, the trains starts BUT as soon as the train reaches Blk2 (ENTER for instance) the signal in Blk1 for that direction turns red which is exactly what you want.

#4 A trains DOES NOT sets a block as next destination. Rather RR decides in fishbowl mode, what train, in which Blk goes in which direction toward another RR-chosen block. So, in your example RR set another block as destination, then ALL the track pieces and the destination block are reserved and no other interfering route can be selected and cause collisions.
Non stop at Blk2: you train leaving Blk1 towards Blk2 may continue (without stopping) towards Blk3 PROVIDED there is no wait time in Blk2 and provided Blk3 is free.

#5 With RR, signals are PURELY DECORATIVE. So RR does not check signals. Additional signals with more than 2 colours have to be commanded by actions invoked in RR items such as routes, blocks, etc. You turn those signal the colour you want but RR role is to detect what routes can be called depending on the occupancy of nearby blocks, depending on the direction of travel, etc. Do not see all this as restrictions but rather as HUGE possibilities. Of course you may also define the speed depending on routes (deviating points or straight points, etc.

#6 The signals in stations remain all red until a route has been assigned by RR departing from the block in question. This is true for all cases and this results in all signals remaining red unless a route has been assigned by RR. In your example of blk1, Blk2 and Blk3 being used in one direction (two locos in compatible or one loco). In the case of only one loco, it will get the green light permanently in front of it (like a green wave)

Cheers
Jean
Offline fabstar68  
#3 Posted : 28 June 2024 09:39:00(UTC)
fabstar68

Italy   
Joined: 14/12/2023(UTC)
Posts: 60
Location: Milan
thanks as usual for your intervention, i think i got your replies, i still have a couple doubts, though, because i have read / seen videos that :
- talk about the field "open block" in the signal tab in the blocks section, for both + and - signals. i am not sure in which scenario this option is useful. i saw it used in Harburn OO youtube videos
- talk about the field "check red signals" in the route general section, which says that checks every signal in the route commands list. that seems something that allows to put in the route commands list some signals, and RR should wait that all signals are green before allowing the route. but this question is too complex to understand for me, i would need to see a real scenario case, and the corresponding settings in RR.

thanks
Offline JohnjeanB  
#4 Posted : 28 June 2024 10:40:27(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,555
Location: Paris, France
Hi Fab
Open Block option:
- instead of what I described before (this option de-activated): for a signal block to turn YELLOW, the TWO following block must be free (and not only one for it to turn GREEN
- de-facto, it allows a 3 color fonstioning for block signals
- I have not used it but it seems to have a great value for 3 color operation and includes speed reduction at yellow

Check Red Signals
Sorry I don't use this feature and I am not sure to understand how pertinent it is.
Cheers
Jean
Offline Wolfram_Stn  
#5 Posted : 28 June 2024 12:16:44(UTC)
Wolfram_Stn

France   
Joined: 14/02/2024(UTC)
Posts: 59
Location: Grand-Est, Alsace
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Hi Fab
Open Block option:
- instead of what I described before (this option de-activated): for a signal block to turn YELLOW, the TWO following block must be free (and not only one for it to turn GREEN
- de-facto, it allows a 3 color fonstioning for block signals
- I have not used it but it seems to have a great value for 3 color operation and includes speed reduction at yellow


This seems not logic to me :

- if you have ONE free block and not two in front of you, you may go full speed
- if you have TWO free blocks and not only one in front of you, you have to reduce speed

I think these two have to be inverted : only one free block -> reduced speed, two (or more) free blocks -> full speed.

But I never used this function, on my test layout the basic position for all signals was "red", and there were three-colour-operations only for switcher zones.
This for the simple reason that in the traditional H/V-signal system in Germany a main signal does not announce the position of the following, there are fore signals to do this at 700-1000 meters before the main signal (or at the previous main signal, at station entry or if this is less than 1300 meters from the following, but that's the exception from the rule).
Offline fabstar68  
#6 Posted : 30 June 2024 19:13:05(UTC)
fabstar68

Italy   
Joined: 14/12/2023(UTC)
Posts: 60
Location: Milan
again, thank you all for your interventions.

i'm doing lots of tests and i think i got the general idea.

i was just wondering, the standard configuration is that each block has a signal on the + and - sides, and those signals are used to indicate ok / ko when the train must leave the block in the corresponding direction. there are no signals to indicate ok / ko to ENTER a block, because that role is played by the signal in the block the trains are coming from. So when a route is locked, the signal in the FROM block is set green, and that's it.

but if i wanted, just for esthetic purposes, to have a signals pair to indicate Ok / Ko ALSO for trains entering a block, can it be done ? i managed to do that by defining this signals pair for a block, and then, when a route is set from block A to block B, i added at the end of the COMMANDS list of the route, a row to turn green the "entry" signal in in block B. And then, i added an action to turn red both signals of the pair that i added, and i trigger that action when the ENTER state of block B is triggered. It seems to work fine.

I was jus wondering if this is a dumb idea (it probably is) and / or there is a better way to implement it. thanks
Offline Wolfram_Stn  
#7 Posted : 01 July 2024 09:01:32(UTC)
Wolfram_Stn

France   
Joined: 14/02/2024(UTC)
Posts: 59
Location: Grand-Est, Alsace
Well, I think you found the solution.

To be honest, concerning signalisation I am too interested in reproducing the reality, so I do not see any sense in a main signal repeater, but if you like it, why not...
Offline JohnjeanB  
#8 Posted : 01 July 2024 10:19:19(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,555
Location: Paris, France
Hi Fab
Originally Posted by: fabstar68 Go to Quoted Post


but if i wanted, just for esthetic purposes, to have a signals pair to indicate Ok / Ko ALSO for trains entering a block, can it be done ? i managed to do that by defining this signals pair for a block, and then, when a route is set from block A to block B, i added at the end of the COMMANDS list of the route, a row to turn green the "entry" signal in in block B. And then, i added an action to turn red both signals of the pair that i added, and i trigger that action when the ENTER state of block B is triggered. It seems to work fine.

I was jus wondering if this is a dumb idea (it probably is) and / or there is a better way to implement it. thanks

Already, when a train enters into a block, the signal of the previous (origin) block turns red.

You may include an action in a block that is trigerred by any status like ghost, enter, in, occupied, reserved, free, closed, open, depart, acceptcode, exit, codemismatch,fifoin.
This action can do anything you want: turn a signal red, orange, green, violet

Nothing is dumb as it is your fantasy or a special signaling case or maybe not related to signaling (anouncements, etc)

Cheers
Jean


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