Welcome to the forum   
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Share
Options
View
Go to last post in this topic Go to first unread post in this topic
Offline river6109  
#1 Posted : 25 January 2024 03:27:02(UTC)
river6109

Australia   
Joined: 22/01/2009(UTC)
Posts: 14,728
Location: On 1965 Märklin Boulevard just around from Roco Square
I find it inexcusable, today most probably not valid any more, the introduction of the 5 pole high efficiency motor as most locos are replaced with a newer type C- Sine motor and all drive axles on diesel and electrics.
the new design 5 pole motor and particular its brush plate hadn't been modified, it would have been easy to add a ball bearing (Märklin attempted to improve the squealing over the years by using metals which had a chemical reaction (motor side),
as it will eventually go out of production Märklin hasn't bothered doing anything about it, the brush plate brush holder is still inadequate in its design and no engineer at Märklin has bothered to look at it or correct it to make sure the design of the brush holder is accurate in relation to the armature (90° angle), they've improved it slightly by reducing the pressure when the brush holder is pressed onto the brush plate (this in turn used to lift up the brush holder at the end and therefore changed the angle of the brushes in relation to the armature by at least 5° ( you may noticed it in the past when you exchanged a brush it was worn on 1 side more than the other side.

John
https://www.youtube.com/river6109
https://www.youtube.com/6109river
5 years in Destruction mode
50 years in Repairing mode
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by river6109
Offline mvd71  
#2 Posted : 25 January 2024 08:59:51(UTC)
mvd71

New Zealand   
Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,735
Location: Auckland,
You are right that there is plenty of scope for improvement, but improvement of quality like that is not the direction Märklin is going in.

The first c-sine motor was brilliant and still my favourite and I would love to see it brought back as it out performs the sds motors, but I won’t hold my breath.

Perhaps there is a business opportunity to produce replace motor faceplates that are properly engineered?
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by mvd71
Offline H0  
#3 Posted : 25 January 2024 10:12:35(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,267
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: river6109 Go to Quoted Post
the new design 5 pole motor
Are you referring to the 6090 motor introduced in the last century (before the C-Sine motors)? Or to the new can motors introduced this century to replace the C-Sine motors.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
Offline mvd71  
#4 Posted : 25 January 2024 10:54:16(UTC)
mvd71

New Zealand   
Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,735
Location: Auckland,
He is referring to the 6090 five pole motor.
Offline marklinist5999  
#5 Posted : 25 January 2024 11:53:17(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 3,152
Location: Michigan, Troy
The 6090 motor made Marklin a unique brand as Roco, etc. had already been using can or open frame motors. Even considering the squealing when oil begins to dry out, they have better torque than the can type because of the armature gear. I've never installed ball bearings and I have just a few locos with chronic squealing, so I just put a drop of oil on the brush plate and the motor side and it quiets them down. If my track route was much longer like John's, it might be aggravating.
I think some of the reasons the can motor has displaced it is design packaging. With speakers and larger pcb boards, it saves space, especially with smaller models. Or,do cardan shafts require extra space too?
The first generation C sinus motor was expensive to produce,so I doubt we'll see it again. Does Lemaco even use one?
When I realized the 6090 was history, I ordered enough spare brushes to last a long time. With a large enough collection, I don't run them all often. Probably not often enough. A long time in the display case and they may require some attention to get them running optimal.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by marklinist5999
Offline mvd71  
#6 Posted : 25 January 2024 16:36:00(UTC)
mvd71

New Zealand   
Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,735
Location: Auckland,
Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 Go to Quoted Post
The 6090 motor made Marklin a unique brand as Roco, etc. had already been using can or open frame motors. Even considering the squealing when oil begins to dry out, they have better torque than the can type because of the armature gear. I've never installed ball bearings and I have just a few locos with chronic squealing, so I just put a drop of oil on the brush plate and the motor side and it quiets them down. If my track route was much longer like John's, it might be aggravating.
I think some of the reasons the can motor has displaced it is design packaging. With speakers and larger pcb boards, it saves space, especially with smaller models. Or,do cardan shafts require extra space too?
The first generation C sinus motor was expensive to produce,so I doubt we'll see it again. Does Lemaco even use one?
When I realized the 6090 was history, I ordered enough spare brushes to last a long time. With a large enough collection, I don't run them all often. Probably not often enough. A long time in the display case and they may require some attention to get them running optimal.


Main reason for the can motors will be cost. They are very very cheap motors! If Märklin used quality like maxxon or faulhaber as they did in the past it would be ok, but many of the new models have had cheap motors in an expensive loco
thanks 4 users liked this useful post by mvd71
Offline dickinsonj  
#7 Posted : 26 January 2024 00:52:43(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,686
Location: Crozet, Virginia
Originally Posted by: mvd71 Go to Quoted Post

Main reason for the can motors will be cost. They are very very cheap motors! If Märklin used quality like maxxon or faulhaber as they did in the past it would be ok, but many of the new models have had cheap motors in an expensive loco

I feel the same way about many of the new can motors. I have had a few fail and they are inexpensive and easy to replace, but they seem wrong in such beautiful, highly detailed and expensive locos.
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
thanks 4 users liked this useful post by dickinsonj
Offline bph  
#8 Posted : 26 January 2024 12:12:46(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 997
Originally Posted by: dickinsonj Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: mvd71 Go to Quoted Post

Main reason for the can motors will be cost. They are very very cheap motors! If Märklin used quality like maxxon or faulhaber as they did in the past it would be ok, but many of the new models have had cheap motors in an expensive loco

I feel the same way about many of the new can motors. I have had a few fail and they are inexpensive and easy to replace, but they seem wrong in such beautiful, highly detailed and expensive locos.


Agree. A premium model should have a premium motor.

Question? do you think some of your motors failed because of grease entering the motor?
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by bph
Offline dickinsonj  
#9 Posted : 26 January 2024 13:16:05(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,686
Location: Crozet, Virginia
Originally Posted by: bph Go to Quoted Post


Question? do you think some of your motors failed because of grease entering the motor?


Yes I do. My 37015 was one of my earlier models with a cheap can motor and it was my first one to fail.

I was not yet aware of the problem where grease from the gearbox could migrate into the motor and cause it to fail. In that model the motor and gearbox are quite close together, and I think that makes it more likely to happen.

I learned about that concern here on the forum and I am now much more careful not to over grease the worm gear. Some of my locos come from Marklin with no visible grease in the gearbox and some have way, way too much. I now always check that before running them just to be safe.
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
thanks 4 users liked this useful post by dickinsonj
Offline marklinist5999  
#10 Posted : 26 January 2024 13:44:15(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 3,152
Location: Michigan, Troy
Oh, and how many people add grease because the manual says every 20 hours of operation? I look at the gears and if I still see any, I don't lubriplate.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by marklinist5999
Offline dickinsonj  
#11 Posted : 26 January 2024 14:27:25(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,686
Location: Crozet, Virginia
Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 Go to Quoted Post
Oh, and how many people add grease because the manual says every 20 hours of operation? I look at the gears and if I still see any, I don't lubriplate.


I agree. We need to use some common sense in lubricating our models and evaluate the need for lubrication case by case. I have learned that it is usually better to err on the side of too little grease, much as I do when caring for a mechanical clock.

Marklin could also do a better job of defining exactly when and how grease and oil needs to be applied. The one size fits all solution is probably never quite right for any particular situation.
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by dickinsonj
Offline mbarreto  
#12 Posted : 26 January 2024 14:48:31(UTC)
mbarreto

Portugal   
Joined: 18/02/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,266
Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 Go to Quoted Post
Oh, and how many people add grease because the manual says every 20 hours of operation? I look at the gears and if I still see any, I don't lubriplate.


Good point! Currently with plastic worm gears it is the advise from Märklin to lubricate any 20 hours. It is not easy to disassemble current Märklin steamers, so I prefer not do it.
If it happens I open the locomotive, yes, I do lubricate.
Also on the wheels I tend to not do it, except from very long to very long. In the end it contributes a to have the track and the wheels dirty. (IMHO)


Best regards,
Miguel
Mostly Märklin H0.


thanks 1 user liked this useful post by mbarreto
Offline bph  
#13 Posted : 26 January 2024 15:16:44(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 997
Originally Posted by: dickinsonj Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 Go to Quoted Post
Oh, and how many people add grease because the manual says every 20 hours of operation? I look at the gears and if I still see any, I don't lubriplate.


I agree. We need to use some common sense in lubricating our models and evaluate the need for lubrication case by case. I have learned that it is usually better to err on the side of too little grease, much as I do when caring for a mechanical clock.

Marklin could also do a better job of defining exactly when and how grease and oil needs to be applied. The one size fits all solution is probably never quite right for any particular situation.


Märklin should start to use a grease that is better suited for modern locomotives. note that in some locomotives Marklin has used a different grease, but they don't have any information about it.

The Trix "special" grease is just a standard cheap industrial grease intended for diggers, bulldozers, ship deck machinery etc. It's not a bad grease but there are more suitable greases. e.g that has higher dielectric properties, longer lubrication intervals and contains fewer non-relevant additives etc. e.g model locomotives don't need grease that can withstand extreme pressure or high resistance to water washout........
Ref the Safety data sheet for the Trix "special" grease 66626.

There might be some challenges to ensuring backward compatibility with the current Matrix grease and oils etc, but as long as you are aware it should not be that hard.
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by bph
Offline mvd71  
#14 Posted : 26 January 2024 15:21:58(UTC)
mvd71

New Zealand   
Joined: 09/08/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,735
Location: Auckland,
Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 Go to Quoted Post
Oh, and how many people add grease because the manual says every 20 hours of operation? I look at the gears and if I still see any, I don't lubriplate.


If you are lifting the body off at a twenty hour interval, rather than not regressing, perhaps you would’ve better to occasionally clean off the old grease and add new grease.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by mvd71
Offline marklinist5999  
#15 Posted : 26 January 2024 15:49:40(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 3,152
Location: Michigan, Troy
You can see that the former Trix desings use a white Lithium type of grease, and these had cardan shaft drive design from the originals.
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by marklinist5999
Offline hxmiesa  
#16 Posted : 26 January 2024 18:32:50(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,520
Location: Spain
For chronic squeelers I use Trix grease (for plastic wormgears) instead of the usual oil. I seems to last longer, but eventually the loco will go back to squeeling... RollEyes
Yes, the old grease should be cleaned out before applying more. (At least in the brush-plate area.)
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by hxmiesa
Offline Bryan  
#17 Posted : 26 January 2024 23:06:04(UTC)
Bryan

Australia   
Joined: 08/09/2010(UTC)
Posts: 211
Location: Bowral, NSW, Australia
One solution to the excessive 'Squealing' in the DCM is to change the end shield plate. They only need micros of wear to the plastic bore to produce the noise. New ones are available on Ebay de etc. It is a different story if wear in in the chassis block. However the chassis is more robust than the end shield as diecast apposed to plastic.

I could never see the reasoning to the roller bearings in the end shields. The roughness is actually in the gear train, especially with a little wear. All those gears with maybe slight variances to blue print, causes gear miss match, roughness and noise. It was obviously one reason Marklin did away with the side gears, made mechs far quieter for the sound age.
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by Bryan
Users browsing this topic
Guest
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

| Powered by YAF.NET | YAF.NET © 2003-2024, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 0.576 seconds.