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Offline Eddie7979  
#1 Posted : 24 December 2023 08:18:11(UTC)
Eddie7979

Australia   
Joined: 01/07/2022(UTC)
Posts: 139
Location: Western Australia, Bassendean
Hi everyone,

Hope you are all enjoying the Christmas break (hopefully you are having one).

While I have time on my hands (and staying out of the 35 to 40 degree heat), I been working on my layout.

I’m trying to adjust where my locomotives stop in each block. So, each block has an enter and in sensor, some of the ‘in’ sensors are a bit longer because I noticed some of the locomotives take a bit longer to stop.

The problem I have now is that the locomotives tend to stop prematurely and I was wondering if anyone can tell me how I can use Rocrail to adjust it?

I tried playing around with the locomotive BBT settings but frustratingly it hasn’t been able to adjust it.

Thank you,

Eddie
Eddie
Perth 🇦🇺
Marklin | Roco | Piko
CS3+ & iTrain
Offline JohnjeanB  
#2 Posted : 24 December 2023 15:35:20(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,548
Location: Paris, France
Hi Eddie

Thank you for your warm wishes. Merry Christmas to all of you too.
Here is a Rocrail (RR) fan using 3 rails and Märklin from France.

If I mention 3 rails, this is because the point of detection is very important for the point of stopping. In 3 rails, it is the first non-insulated axle while in 2 rails, it is the first voltage-picking axle that counts

With Rocrail, you have a very precise stopping point by using those principles (there may be other solutions and I don't know them all, far from it):
- all locos have a digital decoder with an adjustable inertia simulation (in my case, with Märklin, there is a speed curve that is freely adjusted)
- RR offers the possibility to use 1, 2 or 3 sensors for each block
- among those I use 2 sensors per block (ENTER and IN), sometimes, for bi-directional blocks I use ENTER and IN or ENTER, ENTERSHORTIN and IN) and vice-versa of course for the other direction
- RR offers 4 speed adjustments per loco (V_min, V_mid, V_route and v_max. Lets focus only on V_mid and V_route
- of course not all trains have the same braking / acceleration and the same speed (heavy freight train and superfast trains and a whole spectrum in-between)
- RR, in its normal settings have a train travel at V_route speed between stations. As soon as the ENTER detector is active in front of a red signal, the speed is gently (thanks to the decoder in the loco) reduced to V_mid.
- When the train reaches the IN detector, then the speed is gently moved to zero.
- I use a standard length of 20 cm for the IN detector and the rest of the block length for the ENTER detector.
- I set decel/Accel value for the type of train and then I set the V_mid and V_route to have a precise stop before the signal and a route speed that correspond to the train type
- any train entering a block must have finished its deceleration (down to V_mid) BEFORE entering the IN section.

In 2 rails it may be a little more difficult depending where is the first pick-up wheel to set a precise stop UNLESS you use graphite paint on the insulator of wheels (esp. leading and trailing ones. You must in that case reach a resistance of 5 kOhms per axle.
The reward of all this is that ANY train can no be a shuttle train and still stop at the right place

Just to show my point, here is my 3 rail layout in operation (in cold France, it is winter nowBigGrin )

I hope I answered your question

Cheers
Jean
PS I tried to use BBT but I was not impressed by it so I prefer the method above

Edited by user 24 December 2023 22:10:32(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline Martti Mäntylä  
#3 Posted : 24 December 2023 23:53:23(UTC)
Martti Mäntylä

Finland   
Joined: 15/11/2018(UTC)
Posts: 429
Location: Uusimaa, Helsinki
As Jean said, by default Rocrail will set loco speed to zero once it reaches the IN sensor. Then the loco will stop according to the inertia settings of its decoder. If BBT is used, the loco will be moving at V_MIN speed by the time it reaches IN.

In some cases I wish to delay this action a bit (to make sure that the tail of the train clears a switch, or like). To achieve this, I have defined an action executed at the IN event that runs an XML macro computing how much longer the train needs to keep moving at V_MIN speed and commanding the loco to do so.

Initially I tried to fine-tune this by measuring the inertia behaviour of various locos to able to move them some specific distance, but later found this unnecessarily laborious. It was much simpler to standardise V_MIN to some reasonable value (I chose 20 km/h scale speed) and use this in the calculation.
- Martti M.
Era III analog & digital (Rocrail, CAN Digital Bahn, Gleisbox/MS2, K83/K84), C & M tracks, some Spur 1
Offline applor  
#4 Posted : 25 December 2023 01:57:52(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,765
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
You need to adjust your loco MIN speed settings in Rocrail so that their minimum speed results in the same speed so that they all stop in the same distance.

Ie. for freight locomotives with a slower cruise speed, their MIN speed might be set to 30, while an express locomotive with a faster Cruise speed you need to set the MIN to 15 or 20.
This way when they are both doing MIN speed, they are moving at the same speed.
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
Offline Eddie7979  
#5 Posted : 26 December 2023 07:12:04(UTC)
Eddie7979

Australia   
Joined: 01/07/2022(UTC)
Posts: 139
Location: Western Australia, Bassendean
Hi everyone,

Thank you all for the responses, I think I will need to adjust the length of the stopping area and look at the speed (as recommended).

Honestly, the Märklin locomotives tend to stop where I want them. The problem I have is the Roco locomotive I have that runs on DCC, it needs a longer stopping area. Admittedly, the Roco is probably more prototypical but unfortunately space is a bit of a challenge. I’d love to have any tips on changing the settings on a Roco if anybody out there wishes to share (other than placing it on a programming track).

I am yet to try my REE Modeles locomotive, which has the ESU decoder with Mfx capability.

The other thing I need to overcome is my obsession to have super long consists! Maybe a few shorter trains might make things a little easier.

Hope you all had a wonderful Christmas wherever you are in the world.

Eddie
Eddie
Perth 🇦🇺
Marklin | Roco | Piko
CS3+ & iTrain
Offline Eddie7979  
#6 Posted : 26 December 2023 07:20:01(UTC)
Eddie7979

Australia   
Joined: 01/07/2022(UTC)
Posts: 139
Location: Western Australia, Bassendean
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Hi Eddie

Thank you for your warm wishes. Merry Christmas to all of you too.
Here is a Rocrail (RR) fan using 3 rails and Märklin from France.

If I mention 3 rails, this is because the point of detection is very important for the point of stopping. In 3 rails, it is the first non-insulated axle while in 2 rails, it is the first voltage-picking axle that counts

With Rocrail, you have a very precise stopping point by using those principles (there may be other solutions and I don't know them all, far from it):
- all locos have a digital decoder with an adjustable inertia simulation (in my case, with Märklin, there is a speed curve that is freely adjusted)
- RR offers the possibility to use 1, 2 or 3 sensors for each block
- among those I use 2 sensors per block (ENTER and IN), sometimes, for bi-directional blocks I use ENTER and IN or ENTER, ENTERSHORTIN and IN) and vice-versa of course for the other direction
- RR offers 4 speed adjustments per loco (V_min, V_mid, V_route and v_max. Lets focus only on V_mid and V_route
- of course not all trains have the same braking / acceleration and the same speed (heavy freight train and superfast trains and a whole spectrum in-between)
- RR, in its normal settings have a train travel at V_route speed between stations. As soon as the ENTER detector is active in front of a red signal, the speed is gently (thanks to the decoder in the loco) reduced to V_mid.
- When the train reaches the IN detector, then the speed is gently moved to zero.
- I use a standard length of 20 cm for the IN detector and the rest of the block length for the ENTER detector.
- I set decel/Accel value for the type of train and then I set the V_mid and V_route to have a precise stop before the signal and a route speed that correspond to the train type
- any train entering a block must have finished its deceleration (down to V_mid) BEFORE entering the IN section.

In 2 rails it may be a little more difficult depending where is the first pick-up wheel to set a precise stop UNLESS you use graphite paint on the insulator of wheels (esp. leading and trailing ones. You must in that case reach a resistance of 5 kOhms per axle.
The reward of all this is that ANY train can no be a shuttle train and still stop at the right place

Just to show my point, here is my 3 rail layout in operation (in cold France, it is winter nowBigGrin )

I hope I answered your question

Cheers
Jean
PS I tried to use BBT but I was not impressed by it so I prefer the method above


Hi Jean,

I really love your layout, the locomotives are beautiful too!
I will take your advice and play around with the settings.

Joyeux Noël et bonne années!

Eddie
Eddie
Perth 🇦🇺
Marklin | Roco | Piko
CS3+ & iTrain
Offline JohnjeanB  
#7 Posted : 26 December 2023 10:52:49(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,548
Location: Paris, France
Merci
Bonne année 2023 à toi ainsi qu'à vous tous
Jean
Offline applor  
#8 Posted : 28 December 2023 23:51:45(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,765
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Originally Posted by: Eddie7979 Go to Quoted Post
Hi everyone,
Honestly, the Märklin locomotives tend to stop where I want them. The problem I have is the Roco locomotive I have that runs on DCC, it needs a longer stopping area. Admittedly, the Roco is probably more prototypical but unfortunately space is a bit of a challenge. I’d love to have any tips on changing the settings on a Roco if anybody out there wishes to share (other than placing it on a programming track).

Eddie



This is because the Roco locomotive will be configured with a 3 point linear speed table, rather than Marklin locomotives which are always configured with a exponential speed table.
Therefore the Roco takes longer to stop and accelerate at any given speed.
You can re-program the Roco to an exponential speed curve, the same as the marklin.
I have done this myself as well for Roco and Brawa locomotives otherwise they take too long to stop and reach top speed - the exponential table looks and functions better in my opinion, you still get the really nice slow start chuffs without taking forever to start or stop.
I use lokprogrammer for Roco since they were ESU decoders, the Brawa I had to change manually with CV with its DH decoder but it will be different CV than for the ESU decoders.
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
Offline Eddie7979  
#9 Posted : 30 December 2023 07:17:55(UTC)
Eddie7979

Australia   
Joined: 01/07/2022(UTC)
Posts: 139
Location: Western Australia, Bassendean
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Eddie7979 Go to Quoted Post
Hi everyone,
Honestly, the Märklin locomotives tend to stop where I want them. The problem I have is the Roco locomotive I have that runs on DCC, it needs a longer stopping area. Admittedly, the Roco is probably more prototypical but unfortunately space is a bit of a challenge. I’d love to have any tips on changing the settings on a Roco if anybody out there wishes to share (other than placing it on a programming track).

Eddie



This is because the Roco locomotive will be configured with a 3 point linear speed table, rather than Marklin locomotives which are always configured with a exponential speed table.
Therefore the Roco takes longer to stop and accelerate at any given speed.
You can re-program the Roco to an exponential speed curve, the same as the marklin.
I have done this myself as well for Roco and Brawa locomotives otherwise they take too long to stop and reach top speed - the exponential table looks and functions better in my opinion, you still get the really nice slow start chuffs without taking forever to start or stop.
I use lokprogrammer for Roco since they were ESU decoders, the Brawa I had to change manually with CV with its DH decoder but it will be different CV than for the ESU decoders.


Hello,

Interesting, I looked at the manual for the decoder to try figure out which CV to change. Unfortunately it doesn’t just come up with the table like the Marklin locomotives.

Has anyine used the CS2/3 to change the motor values of a Roco locomotive? I’d be keen to know how it’s done.

Here is the link to the manual:

http://www.zimo.at/web20...ts/MS-MN-Decoders_EN.pdf

I have to admit, the technical aspects is a bit beyond my technical abilities.
Eddie
Perth 🇦🇺
Marklin | Roco | Piko
CS3+ & iTrain
Offline applor  
#10 Posted : 03 January 2024 22:08:34(UTC)
applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,765
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Yes it is easy to make changes with CS2/CS3.

Looking at page 26, you want to change from a 3 point to a 28 point speed table. This means changing CV29 bit 4 from a 0 to a 1.
So default value is 14, (0000 1110 - this is bit 7 to bit 0, which is 8 + 4 + 2)
This means you want to change CV 29 to value 30 (0001 1110, which is 16 + 8 + 4 + 2)

So with your loco on the programming track, go to CV programming on your CS2/3. Have a look for CV29. If it's not there you can just manually add it, type 29.
First, read the CV which should come back with value 14.
Then enter value 30 and write the CV to the loco.

Done.
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
Offline Eddie7979  
#11 Posted : 06 January 2024 08:53:09(UTC)
Eddie7979

Australia   
Joined: 01/07/2022(UTC)
Posts: 139
Location: Western Australia, Bassendean
Originally Posted by: applor Go to Quoted Post
Yes it is easy to make changes with CS2/CS3.

Looking at page 26, you want to change from a 3 point to a 28 point speed table. This means changing CV29 bit 4 from a 0 to a 1.
So default value is 14, (0000 1110 - this is bit 7 to bit 0, which is 8 + 4 + 2)
This means you want to change CV 29 to value 30 (0001 1110, which is 16 + 8 + 4 + 2)

So with your loco on the programming track, go to CV programming on your CS2/3. Have a look for CV29. If it's not there you can just manually add it, type 29.
First, read the CV which should come back with value 14.
Then enter value 30 and write the CV to the loco.

Done.


Hello,

This is a great start, I have just followed the instructions and changed CV#29 as required.

After testing the locomotive, I’m guessing that I have to start playing with CVs 67 to 94?
I was hoping to be able to choose the appropriate settings similar to Marklin.

In terms of tuning the acceleration and deacceleration, any tips would be greatly appreciated.

Many regards,


Eddie
Eddie
Perth 🇦🇺
Marklin | Roco | Piko
CS3+ & iTrain
Offline Eddie7979  
#12 Posted : 08 January 2024 17:23:09(UTC)
Eddie7979

Australia   
Joined: 01/07/2022(UTC)
Posts: 139
Location: Western Australia, Bassendean
Hi everyone,

Just an update, I followed the instruction regarding rhe CVs and then played around with the acceleration / brake delays.

I can now say it works just how I want it. I was. Bit confused since the values work a bit differently to Marklin, I guess it’s the difference in decoders.

Anyway, thanks to everyone here for helping me out. I’ve noted this down for future reference.

Regards,

Eddie
Eddie
Perth 🇦🇺
Marklin | Roco | Piko
CS3+ & iTrain
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Eddie7979
Offline mcs51  
#13 Posted : 12 March 2024 20:10:44(UTC)
mcs51

Belgium   
Joined: 25/05/2020(UTC)
Posts: 15
Location: West-Vlaanderen, Kortrijk
Hi Eddie,
But did you get the BBT to work?
That works perfectly to slow down a loc from Enter to In sensor.
Because the loc is always at low speed when it reaches the In sensor, it stops always at the same place.
For sure your Dutch is not ok but this video shows you how to configure it correctly CLIC
Note that it will not work from the first time.
Let the loc run few times through that bloc and watch it change "Afrem tijd" break time
Watch the actions needed to validate the break time from time 9:28 in the video.
Good luck
Alain
Offline Eddie7979  
#14 Posted : 18 March 2024 03:32:52(UTC)
Eddie7979

Australia   
Joined: 01/07/2022(UTC)
Posts: 139
Location: Western Australia, Bassendean
Originally Posted by: mcs51 Go to Quoted Post
Hi Eddie,
But did you get the BBT to work?
That works perfectly to slow down a loc from Enter to In sensor.
Because the loc is always at low speed when it reaches the In sensor, it stops always at the same place.
For sure your Dutch is not ok but this video shows you how to configure it correctly CLIC
Note that it will not work from the first time.
Let the loc run few times through that bloc and watch it change "Afrem tijd" break time
Watch the actions needed to validate the break time from time 9:28 in the video.
Good luck
Alain


Hi Alain,

Thank you so much, I will check this out.

Since it’s summer here in Australia, I haven’t been working too much on my layout. In my spare time, I have been concentrating on the installation of lighting on some new coaches I have and I’m waiting for a couple of new locomotives as well.

In the next month I will look at this again and do some experimenting. This video will surely be helpful (it will test my language skills, i used to speak Flemish when I was kid but just haven’t used it much).

Many regards from Australia!

Eddie
Eddie
Perth 🇦🇺
Marklin | Roco | Piko
CS3+ & iTrain
Offline White Buffalo  
#15 Posted : 26 March 2025 15:53:11(UTC)
White Buffalo

United States   
Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC)
Posts: 496
Location: South Dakota
Great information in this thread! I am just starting to make blocks and get the "enter" and "in" sensors set up in Rocrail. Prior I had installed some ESU Braking Modules, but unfortunately this was only effective with Locomotives with ESU 4.0 and higher detectors and I would need to adjust stopping distance for each Loc with the Lokprogrammer - very time consuming....

Then I had to install a Marklin Braking modules to control the Loc's with Marklin Decoders on a couple of the sidings, but that would make those sidings dedicated for Loc's with Marklin decoders....

Rocrail's BBT option is much more efficient it seems.


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Offline White Buffalo  
#16 Posted : 02 April 2025 03:41:23(UTC)
White Buffalo

United States   
Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC)
Posts: 496
Location: South Dakota
I am going to start educating myself more on Rocrail's BTT system, just need to finish up some wiring in the yard.

Offline JohnjeanB  
#17 Posted : 02 April 2025 12:34:12(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,548
Location: Paris, France
Hi
Originally Posted by: White Buffalo Go to Quoted Post
I am going to start educating myself more on Rocrail's BTT system, just need to finish up some wiring in the yard.


I recommend you read this thread about precision stopping of trains with Rocrail

https://www.marklin-users.net/fo...he-Locomotive-Stop-Point

Looking again into the subject, it seems now that Rocrail has become very discreet about BBT (Brake Before Timing).
It fell out of favour (micro speed control of locomotives) which is fine with older decoders and smaller layouts and when one is fine to spend time on EACH loco on EACH block.
As explained in the other topic, it is better to standardize the IN length of each block (18 cm for me) and to do on EACH LOCO but ONCE for the entire layout
- adjust ON THE LOCO the braking delay and acceleration delay (a goods trains trakes much longer to decelerate / accelarate
- adjust V_route to the normal speed of a given loco (TGV or old steamer)
- adjust V_mid so that when arriving at that speed EACH loco will stop at the exact same distance IN FRONT of the signal

The precision stop is approx 1 cm PROVIDED your Central Station uses a REGULATED Voltage supply (I use Märklin's 60101 100W PSU)
Cheers
Jean
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Offline White Buffalo  
#18 Posted : 02 April 2025 17:02:17(UTC)
White Buffalo

United States   
Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC)
Posts: 496
Location: South Dakota
Thank you JohnJean, will do!
Offline White Buffalo  
#19 Posted : 21 April 2025 01:47:26(UTC)
White Buffalo

United States   
Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC)
Posts: 496
Location: South Dakota
" I use a standard length of 20 cm for the IN detector and the rest of the block length for the ENTER detector.
- I set decel/Accel value for the type of train and then I set the V_mid and V_route to have a precise stop before the signal and a route speed that correspond to the train type
- any train entering a block must have finished its deceleration (down to V_mid) BEFORE entering the IN section."


Excellent advice, I have set up 4 of my 10 blocks this way with the 18.8 cm (Märklin 188 C-Track) for the „IN“ sensor in the shadow station. It‘s working out well once you get familiar with the program and were to locate the settings.

I believe the BBT has worked very well with my limited testing. Perhaps they have changed the process since this topic was First created? Confused After the locomotive runs through the block for the first time it will continuously adjust the deceleration steps to arrive at V_min when entering the „IN“ sensor. I did adjust the „Correction“ value from 25% to 75% so it would come to these calculations quicker since my block lengths are over 200 cm. Correcting the Start V_min distance by 25% during each Block enter event would have taken a long time.

The first block I set up I ran at the standard 25% „correction“ value and I had to run the locomotive through the block @ 12 times before it learned the best V_min start point. Changing the „correction“ percent just helped Rocrail calculate the adjustments for the longer sidings in a shorter period of time (by allowing Rocrail to make larger adjustments each time it entered the Block).

It seems to be working for me so far… 👍🏻
Offline JohnjeanB  
#20 Posted : 21 April 2025 12:55:12(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,548
Location: Paris, France
Hi
Here is a page to explain BBT (Block-Brake-Timer)
https://wiki.rocrail.net/doku.php?id=loc-bbt-en
The principle is a self-learning program FOR EACH LOCO to send multiple speed commands (standard 10 steps) to re-create inertia simulation.
It is ressource-hungry as a BBT table is needed for each loco, each direction and each block.

Example: I have more than 100 blocks, 28 locos that would mean 100*28*2= 5600 tables (which is crazy)

It was intended as an improvement to old-style decoders (w/o inertia simulation) to obtain a smooth deceleration.
While it still exists and works, on medium to large layouts, it fell out of favour especially with ubiquitous modern decoders.
Why, overload your digital system with plenty of digital commands for ONE loco?
The overload of the digital system results in degraded performance (more time needed to send other commands thus affecting the precision of movement control.

Cheers
Jean
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Offline White Buffalo  
#21 Posted : 21 April 2025 13:01:41(UTC)
White Buffalo

United States   
Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC)
Posts: 496
Location: South Dakota
That definitely makes sense Jean, Thank you. The more I learn from folks like you and the Wiki documentation, BBT can sure tie up processor time like you said. I think the documentation says to turn off BBT in Blocks & Locomotives if not using.ThumpUp

I have not experienced what you have -yet, and that makes sense since I am only running 4 blocks & 4 Locomotives. Once distances are set, I wonder if changing the BBT setting to fixed would prevent the constant table updating.
Offline White Buffalo  
#22 Posted : 21 April 2025 15:05:36(UTC)
White Buffalo

United States   
Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC)
Posts: 496
Location: South Dakota
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Hi
Here is a page to explain BBT (Block-Brake-Timer)
https://wiki.rocrail.net/doku.php?id=loc-bbt-en
The principle is a self-learning program FOR EACH LOCO to send multiple speed commands (standard 10 steps) to re-create inertia simulation.
It is resource-hungry as a BBT table is needed for each loco, each direction and each block.


From the Wiki Link that Jean posted - basically, as Jean stated above, the more blocks & locomotives - the higher the demand. I understand now, as I add Blocks & Locomotives that this situation will soon present itself....ThumpUp

Advice
1. Do not set the decelerate decoder CV 4 to zero.
2. enter2in is not supported.
3. The use of Event Timers will not lead to a stable interval; Reset them to zero!
4. Use as less brake steps as possible to reduce communication overhead; 10 steps is default and a good choice.
5. Use at least 28 decoder steps; Better are 128.
6. To get used to this function it is advisable to set a linear speed curve in the decoder.
7. The longer the block, or the distance from the start of braking to in, the more steps and higher CV4 value should be set.
8. BBT needs extra CPU power so disable BBT if its not needed.

Merci beaucoup for sharing your expertise & experience Jean!
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Offline Martti Mäntylä  
#23 Posted : 21 April 2025 20:58:19(UTC)
Martti Mäntylä

Finland   
Joined: 15/11/2018(UTC)
Posts: 429
Location: Uusimaa, Helsinki
I am less worried about overloading the digital system than Jean.

Rocrail communicates with my setup with a 500000 baud serial link which I deem to be quite sufficient for handling the BBT commands and all the rest. 5600 BBT records should neither pose a problem for any reasonably modern computer. My desktop computer has 16 GB of central memory; Rocview appears to use 800 Mb of it and Rocrail itself about 4,4 Gt.
- Martti M.
Era III analog & digital (Rocrail, CAN Digital Bahn, Gleisbox/MS2, K83/K84), C & M tracks, some Spur 1
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by Martti Mäntylä
Offline White Buffalo  
#24 Posted : 21 April 2025 22:26:22(UTC)
White Buffalo

United States   
Joined: 29/12/2016(UTC)
Posts: 496
Location: South Dakota
Thank you Jean & Martti, your experience & knowledge is always helpful. ThumpUp

Thank you for making this new experience go much smoother.......
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