Welcome to the forum   
Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Share
Options
View
Go to last post in this topic Go to first unread post in this topic
Offline harold ramone  
#1 Posted : 14 December 2023 21:10:33(UTC)
harold ramone

Canada   
Joined: 05/12/2023(UTC)
Posts: 4
Location: Kingston, Canada
Hi All,

Building new Märklin C track layout. in terms of bridges and tunnels, is there a maximum cross sectional dimension for most trains, locos, passenger cars and freight cars?
i.e. C track is 10mm plus my rough calculation is 50mm for the first unit i measured. that's 60mm. What is the rule of thumb, 80mm height? and width, 40mm?
So, not considering corners or turnouts, because there is hangover beyond the 40mm width, what is the "general max width for a bridge for example?

Thanks, it's winter, I want to get started!!!
Harold
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by harold ramone
Offline JohnjeanB  
#2 Posted : 14 December 2023 21:51:37(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,130
Location: Paris, France
Hi Harold
A warm welcome to our great forum of Märklin fans
A short presentation of you (which region, which fields of interest, age occupation) is not mandatory but would help get acquainted.
Here a French crazy person (from Paris area) about Märklin HO digital, computer control of trains, Faller Car System

Not sure that I will answer your questions but lets try:
- space between levels: it includes the base board thickness (10mm) the C track height: 8 mm; clearance for trains 67 mm Clearance for catenary mast 97 mm.
- I selected 100 mm (of height between levels) and it turned out to be not enough (inconvenience of reaching a derailed train,, etc 120 mm is better.
- side clearance : straight or very wide curves 30 mm on each side of the track (C Track width is 40 mm meaning 20 mm on each side of the track center
- side clearance for curves: it depends on the radius (of course sorry) but also on extra long vehicles (Big Boy, Goliath crane, etc).
- so for R1, R2 and R3 77 mm track spacing is barely enough for "normal length" vehicles (cars under 300 mm in length). NOT any signal may be installed in the intertrack space
- for spacing between R3, R4 and R5 is 64.3 mm and this is barely enough for normal length vehicles (270 mm max)

Note: some Märklin items cannot be used "as is".
A curve followed by a counter curve is PROHIBITED with R1, tolerated with R2 and OK with wide radii

Some Examples of normal length vehicles (270 mm) that cannot be accomodated:
- a R1 curved bridge, because of the railings
- a level crossing because of its gates
- a 7286 turntable, because of its railings

I hope some of the above will help you
Jean
thanks 3 users liked this useful post by JohnjeanB
Offline harold ramone  
#3 Posted : 15 December 2023 01:02:07(UTC)
harold ramone

Canada   
Joined: 05/12/2023(UTC)
Posts: 4
Location: Kingston, Canada
BigGrin
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Hi Harold
A warm welcome to our great forum of Märklin fans
A short presentation of you (which region, which fields of interest, age occupation) is not mandatory but would help get acquainted.
Here a French crazy person (from Paris area) about Märklin HO digital, computer control of trains, Faller Car System

Not sure that I will answer your questions but lets try:
- space between levels: it includes the base board thickness (10mm) the C track height: 8 mm; clearance for trains 67 mm Clearance for catenary mast 97 mm.
- I selected 100 mm (of height between levels) and it turned out to be not enough (inconvenience of reaching a derailed train,, etc 120 mm is better.
- side clearance : straight or very wide curves 30 mm on each side of the track (C Track width is 40 mm meaning 20 mm on each side of the track center
- side clearance for curves: it depends on the radius (of course sorry) but also on extra long vehicles (Big Boy, Goliath crane, etc).
- so for R1, R2 and R3 77 mm track spacing is barely enough for "normal length" vehicles (cars under 300 mm in length). NOT any signal may be installed in the intertrack space
- for spacing between R3, R4 and R5 is 64.3 mm and this is barely enough for normal length vehicles (270 mm max)

Note: some Märklin items cannot be used "as is".
A curve followed by a counter curve is PROHIBITED with R1, tolerated with R2 and OK with wide radii

Some Examples of normal length vehicles (270 mm) that cannot be accomodated:
- a R1 curved bridge, because of the railings
- a level crossing because of its gates
- a 7286 turntable, because of its railings

I hope some of the above will help you
Jean

Hello Jean,

Thank you for your prompt response; This is my first blog, and first question. 60 years old: three children, two grandkids, in Canada, loves punk & metal, krautrock, cooking, camping and canoeing. Cool?

Background: Rec'd first MäRKLIN when i was 7/8 years old (k track...) Got back into it during COVID, WITH THE HELP OF MY TEENAGE DAUGHTER AND WIFE! So, upon retiring from a trade as a high voltage electrician, i invested in a room size layout, studied YouTube videos on how to build, including substructure etc.

So now, the challenge begins with elevation etc. I am using SCARM, but I'm not very good at transferring my design to 3D.

\my main layout will be all passenger cars, using R3, R4 and R5 curve. Later on I will add a Frieght train layout with R1 & R2.
Again, Thank you, Merci
Harold Ramone
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by harold ramone
Offline loco 3000  
#4 Posted : 18 December 2023 15:57:25(UTC)
loco 3000

Sweden   
Joined: 18/12/2023(UTC)
Posts: 1
Hello there.

I just registered here. Notice that a small presentation is recommended. I registered here, because I have picked up my old starter set with steam loco 3000 and thought to build a small layout with metal track. I'll probably have to add some tracks to make it interesting, but that's another story. About myself I can also add that I live in Sweden, and I am close to retirement age.

Looked around a bit in the forum, and saw this topic. I think I actually have a 'rule of thumb', which I intend to take into account for my own part. Then I feel pretty safe.

Because there has been some previous thinking about this, and other things connected to model railways. Here is a link to 'Standards of European Model Railroads', by MOROP: https://www.morop.org/in...hp/en/nem-the-norms.html

Relevant to your (and my) considerations are the following standards:
NEM 102 Area Clearance on Straight Track, link: https://www.morop.org/im...102_en_2019_20231122.pdf
NEM 103 Clearance Perimeter in track curves, link: https://www.morop.org/im...NEM_E/nem103_en_2016.pdf
NEM 105 Tunnel Profiles for Normal Gauge Railroads, link: https://www.morop.org/im...105_en_2013_20170903.pdf
NEM 112 Track Spacing, link: https://www.morop.org/im...NEM_E/nem112_en_2016.pdf

There are also some other interesting standards, but those are topics for other threads. Blink

The principle is that you start from the straight standard NEM 102. Then you add different measurements, if it is a tunnel, or a curve, and depending on the radius of the curve. There are tables for different scales.

You can simplify a little, and start from NEM 112 Track Spacing, and add the required space for the curves according to NEM 103 Clearance Perimeter in track curves.

The total height is probably quite easy to see in the NEM 102 plus height c-rail.

The width has to be calculated a bit:
Calculation example width (I hope I calculated correctly, correct me otherwise):
For passenger trains with long passenger cars (group C) on R3, we can calculate 46 mm + 2x11 mm = 68 mm wide tunnel for R3 radius 515 mm. It's of course also sufficient for R4 and R5. Narrower is sufficient, if the passenger carriages are somewhat shorter. For freight trains, for group A (freight wagons length max 230 mm) and for radius R1 360 mm, we have 46 mm + 2x8 mm = 62 mm wide tunnel.

Personally, I would certainly do some testing and have a little more margin. If there is a derailment, it can be nice. Where it's tight, calculations can be useful, for bridges e.g, which you don't want wider than necessary. As mentioned above, track spacing are excellent guidelines for tunnel widths. BigGrin
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by loco 3000
Offline harold ramone  
#5 Posted : 18 December 2023 18:23:12(UTC)
harold ramone

Canada   
Joined: 05/12/2023(UTC)
Posts: 4
Location: Kingston, Canada
BigGrin Thank You, I've already printed off those lovely standards you included. Happy |Christmas![b
Originally Posted by: loco 3000 Go to Quoted Post
Hello there.

I just registered here. Notice that a small presentation is recommended. I registered here, because I have picked up my old starter set with steam loco 3000 and thought to build a small layout with metal track. I'll probably have to add some tracks to make it interesting, but that's another story. About myself I can also add that I live in Sweden, and I am close to retirement age.

Looked around a bit in the forum, and saw this topic. I think I actually have a 'rule of thumb', which I intend to take into account for my own part. Then I feel pretty safe.

Because there has been some previous thinking about this, and other things connected to model railways. Here is a link to 'Standards of European Model Railroads', by MOROP: https://www.morop.org/in...hp/en/nem-the-norms.html

Relevant to your (and my) considerations are the following standards:
NEM 102 Area Clearance on Straight Track, link: https://www.morop.org/im...102_en_2019_20231122.pdf
NEM 103 Clearance Perimeter in track curves, link: https://www.morop.org/im...NEM_E/nem103_en_2016.pdf
NEM 105 Tunnel Profiles for Normal Gauge Railroads, link: https://www.morop.org/im...105_en_2013_20170903.pdf
NEM 112 Track Spacing, link: https://www.morop.org/im...NEM_E/nem112_en_2016.pdf

There are also some other interesting standards, but those are topics for other threads. Blink

The principle is that you start from the straight standard NEM 102. Then you add different measurements, if it is a tunnel, or a curve, and depending on the radius of the curve. There are tables for different scales.

You can simplify a little, and start from NEM 112 Track Spacing, and add the required space for the curves according to NEM 103 Clearance Perimeter in track curves.

The total height is probably quite easy to see in the NEM 102 plus height c-rail.

The width has to be calculated a bit:
Calculation example width (I hope I calculated correctly, correct me otherwise):
For passenger trains with long passenger cars (group C) on R3, we can calculate 46 mm + 2x11 mm = 68 mm wide tunnel for R3 radius 515 mm. It's of course also sufficient for R4 and R5. Narrower is sufficient, if the passenger carriages are somewhat shorter. For freight trains, for group A (freight wagons length max 230 mm) and for radius R1 360 mm, we have 46 mm + 2x8 mm = 62 mm wide tunnel.

Personally, I would certainly do some testing and have a little more margin. If there is a derailment, it can be nice. Where it's tight, calculations can be useful, for bridges e.g, which you don't want wider than necessary. As mentioned above, track spacing are excellent guidelines for tunnel widths. BigGrin


Offline H0  
#6 Posted : 18 December 2023 19:25:02(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,267
Location: DE-NW
A warning about NEM dimensions: It applies to models of prototypes that fit the German railway clearances.

There is equipment in real life that is a bit larger, like the 32 axle heavy load car or the US Big Boy.
The latter may need a few extra millimetres on the outside of curves, the former will need a few extra inches on the inside of curves.

Always test with the largest rolling stock you have.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by H0
Offline harold ramone  
#7 Posted : 18 December 2023 20:38:33(UTC)
harold ramone

Canada   
Joined: 05/12/2023(UTC)
Posts: 4
Location: Kingston, Canada
All of that is great information. Thank you everyone.
Users browsing this topic
Guest
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

| Powered by YAF.NET | YAF.NET © 2003-2024, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 0.697 seconds.