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Offline FastEddie  
#1 Posted : 19 October 2023 00:08:49(UTC)
FastEddie

United States   
Joined: 09/07/2023(UTC)
Posts: 6
Location: Delaware, Long Neck
I have been operating and collecting Marklin trains since 1958. My current layout is 12' by 8' and consists of four interconnected loops of K track over cork roadbed with 27 switches, a turntable and two rail yards. Everything I own is analog and is run by six 6627 transformers. I have over 27 engines spanning the 65-year time period from a venerable model BR89 3000 to a more modern digital BR39 39392. Staying analog worked fine during the era of the universal electronic circuit in the Delta and Digital systems. Although the more modern engines were really made for Digital, they were reverse compatible and worked just fine on analog, you just couldn't access the sound functions, which meant little to me anyway.

Two things have happened recently which have given me concerns about staying analog and continuing to purchase new locomotives. First, my son, who runs digital, purchased a new locomotive and we test ran it on my layout. It ran fine on my setup, but when he took it home he found that the digital card was fried, and it would not run at all on his. Apparently switching into reverse fried the card given the electronic jolt is about 24 volts from my analog transformers. Second, I just purchased a very nice digital BR39 passenger locomotive (39392). The instructions indicate it can run on analog BUT there are warnings to "use only switch mode power supply units", "never supply with power from more than one transformer" and a note on the outside of the box that warns it runs between 16 and 22 volts. As I indicated before, the old analog transformers throw 24 volts thru the engine for switching purposes.

So that brings me to my question for any electronic wizards out there. Is there a way I can stay analog but run my new digital locomotive without destroying it? Also, what the heck is a switch mode power supply? Confused
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Offline cintrans  
#2 Posted : 19 October 2023 01:19:14(UTC)
cintrans

Aruba   
Joined: 11/07/2018(UTC)
Posts: 172
Location: Aruba (general), Oranjestad
Eddie (??)

A switch mode power supply is a modern power supply without the bulky transformer inside...
It uses solid state components to regulate the incoming main voltage to the lower outgoing voltage.

Modern smd components found on the decoders are quite sensitive for over-voltage, there is not much you can do about that besides not switching the engine into reverse.... or switching your layout to digital....

Regards

Jean-Pierre



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Offline mike c  
#3 Posted : 19 October 2023 04:02:54(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,898
Location: Montreal, QC
You should replace your older transformer which puts out too great a voltage with a newer one which respects the new limits. The older transformers can put out reverse impulses greater than 23VAC. The newer ones (6647) are designed to work with voltage norms set out in the last decade and will not create a surge that can damage electronics. If you are still using the old metal transformers from the 50s/60s, the risk of shock from wire deterioration makes the change worthwhile in any case.

Regards

Mike C
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Offline H0  
#4 Posted : 19 October 2023 09:19:17(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,267
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: FastEddie Go to Quoted Post
Second, I just purchased a very nice digital BR39 passenger locomotive (39392). The instructions indicate it can run on analog BUT there are warnings to "use only switch mode power supply units", "never supply with power from more than one transformer" and a note on the outside of the box that warns it runs between 16 and 22 volts.
It's not good to quote partial sentences out of context.

The manual reads:
"Use only switched mode power supply units and transformers that are designed for your local power system."
Your local power system is now "120 V" and older transformers made for 110 V must not be used with that loco. That's the message, clear as mud. Märklin style.

The new decoders are designed for a maximum AC voltage of 28.28 V. The reversing voltage from your 6627 transformers may be higher than that, even in the 30+ V range.
With modern transformers it should not exceed 26 V.

The 22 V on the box refer to digital operation.
The 16 V on the box refer to analogue operation - and exclude the reversing voltage. That's the message, clear as mud. Märklin style.

The 39392 is an older digital engine. Since 2015, the decoders should withstand the older blue transformers. But I wouldn't take any risk with my locos.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline FastEddie  
#5 Posted : 20 October 2023 21:21:46(UTC)
FastEddie

United States   
Joined: 09/07/2023(UTC)
Posts: 6
Location: Delaware, Long Neck
Thanks to all who replied. Very useful explanations and suggestions. I think I will swap out my 6627s for the more modern 6646 transformers to protect the engines. Shifting to digital is not an approach which seems useful since it would leave many of my vintage engines unusable and, frankly, the cost and complexity of all the new power equipment, swapping and modification of engines, adding digital cards to switches etc. leaves me cold. Will 6646 transformers protect the digital locos better or are they not switched mode power supplies and therefore of no more use than the 6627s I already have?
Offline hxmiesa  
#6 Posted : 20 October 2023 23:27:22(UTC)
hxmiesa

Spain   
Joined: 15/12/2005(UTC)
Posts: 3,520
Location: Spain
The 6627 lacks the protection the 6646 has.

Specifically for the over-voltage of the reverse-pulse of the blue trafos, a few antiparallel diodes in series with the track-connection, should be enough to protect your decoders, though...
Best regards
Henrik Hoexbroe ("The Dane In Spain")
http://hoexbroe.tripod.com
Offline Paul59  
#7 Posted : 21 October 2023 12:05:01(UTC)
Paul59

United Kingdom   
Joined: 25/08/2012(UTC)
Posts: 188
Location: South East
As hxmleisa says, a few diodes can work wonders. I run analogue now and mostly have the white transformers but I also have a couple of blue ones - the later ones with a plastic case.
I have wired two antiparallel pairs of diodes on the output of these (so four diodes in all) which give a voltage drop of around 1.4volts regardless of the load. This brings the output to the track for both the driving voltage and the reverse pulse voltage in line with the white transformers.

I don't have many digital locos but the ones that I do have not experienced any issues. It also makes adjustment of the springs on the old electro mechanical reversers easier as the reverse pulse voltages are the same whichever controller is used.
Marklin HO using M track. Now reverted to analogue as I find it has more character - and I understand it!
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Offline FastEddie  
#8 Posted : 22 October 2023 02:57:57(UTC)
FastEddie

United States   
Joined: 09/07/2023(UTC)
Posts: 6
Location: Delaware, Long Neck
Thanks Paul59 and Hxmiesa!. Now I have two solutions - replace the 6627s with 6646 transformers or add anti-parallel pairs of diodes on the output of the old 6627s. Fortunately, I have a friend who is an electrical engineer and can translate what you are suggesting into action because I don't speak anti-parallel diodes! :) Hey Paul, I see you are in the South East of England. I used to live in Aldeburgh in East Anglia when I was very young.
Offline H0  
#9 Posted : 22 October 2023 19:22:07(UTC)
H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,267
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: Paul59 Go to Quoted Post
As hxmleisa says, a few diodes can work wonders. I run analogue now and mostly have the white transformers but I also have a couple of blue ones - the later ones with a plastic case.
The newer ones with plastic case have a lower reversing voltage than the older ones with a metal risk, so the risk for decoders is much lower.

You live in an area where the nominal mains voltage was reduced from 240 V to 230 V, thus also reducing the reversing voltage.
Eddie lives in an area where the nominal mains voltage was raised from 110 V to 120 V, thus also increasing the reversing voltage.

Long story short: Solutions that work for one person may not work for other persons with completely different configurations.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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