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Offline heinrichhess  
#1 Posted : 09 September 2023 11:14:01(UTC)
heinrichhess

United Kingdom   
Joined: 20/05/2023(UTC)
Posts: 214
Location: Wales, powys
i am building a 4 track terminus due to space there are not enough space between tracks for switches so unable to have runaround track or a loop so planning a drill lead and then reversing up to 10 coaches into station trying to keep switches and curves to a minimum am i am thinking bigger curves will have less problems but same time i think 5100 match switches so to keep the same Confused and last question is it prototypical im thinking not how ever this is a big world

4 point 2.png

hess
Offline JohnjeanB  
#2 Posted : 09 September 2023 11:47:29(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,130
Location: Paris, France
Hi Hess
"Can you reverse into a terminus?" The answer is YES BUT:
Reversing a train is the simplest thing in digital but in absence of a slider switch, the train will not stop BEFORE the signal.

Reversing with a software like Rocrail, then THERE IS STRICTLY NOTHING TO DO". You change the train's direction and because it does not use insulated stop zones for signals so it stops at the right spot every time. The train becomes a shuttle train w/o doing anything.

Reversing trains like they do in real terminus stations: uncouple the cars, have them coupled and pulled away by a shunting loco.

An alternative to the previous real-life operation is to uncouple the cars before the loco is fully against the buffer and an escape switch, allows the loco to be removed (return to the depot). This operation belongs to steam era while today in my favourite Saint Lazare station in Paris (24 platform tracks 91 million passengers per year) all trains are now reversible for shuttle operation

Here is (for fun) a video of this station in 1957 when steam was ruling the tracks
If you wish to skip the historical part, jump to 3:46 into the video


Here is what it looks like more recently in the yard just before the station: all electric, all computerized, all shuttle trains.

Cheers
Jean
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Offline David Dewar  
#3 Posted : 09 September 2023 12:07:24(UTC)
David Dewar

Scotland   
Joined: 01/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 7,343
Location: Scotland
Large curves where possible are best for any part of a layout. Regarding reversing into a station no reason why not as you are the driver and the fun of model rail is controlling the loco yourself. As Jean says signals need to be set up to allow the operation to go smoothly but again thats the fun of building a railway.
Take care I like Marklin and will defend the worlds greatest model rail manufacturer.
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#4 Posted : 09 September 2023 14:16:49(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,672
Location: Hybrid Home
As usual, there is a prototypical example for (almost) everything. Recently at the Hamburg-Altona terminus in Germany, the Urlaubs-Express (UEX) mototrain - passenger cars and autoracks - coming from the coach yard is backed into the stub siding by the road engine.
UEX2023backs-in.jpg
No shunter and neither uncoupling nor coupling involved.
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Offline JohnjeanB  
#5 Posted : 09 September 2023 14:39:01(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,130
Location: Paris, France
Hi Alsterstreek
Here, in France the wagons storing cars must be entered by one side by cars and emptied by the other side so either at departure or arrival, the train must be separated. Besides the environment to load cars is not compatible with a passenger rail station. They would offer you a cup of coffee during the time needed for train maneuvers using the same loco.
Another example is the shuttle in Eurotunnel (without passenger cars, you stay in your car, one loco at each end of the train) to avoid any train breaking, entry and exit are made sideways for both the upper level or lower level) both in Calais and Dover.
Cheers
Jean
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Offline Toosmall  
#6 Posted : 09 September 2023 15:29:22(UTC)
Toosmall

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 616
Location: Sydney
Sydney Central Station has a mix of both, but has 15 terminus lines. It did have up to 19 terminus lines.

120326-A049_xlarge.jpg
(2012 photo from web)

The Indian Pacific train is split in two halves & uses two lines to the right of the photo, platforms 1, 2 or 3.

'As of 2020 , the weekly service consists of up to 25 carriages and two motorail wagons. Because of its length, the train is split in two when stabled at Sydney Central station.'

'The current 15 Sydney Terminal platforms run perpendicular to the main station concourse and all are dead ended with the buffer stop. They are arranged as seven double platforms and one single platform, each with an awning, servicing a total of 15 tracks. Platforms 1–3 are for country and interstate services, while the remainder are for interurban services.'

'Platforms 1–10 have a centre run-round track, which was for locomotive-hauled trains. It enabled the locomotive to uncouple from its train and either depart or re-couple on the other end to pull the train to the next destination. There was extreme pressure on the speed to ready a train for the next destination due to the lack of platform space and a steady growth of rail patronage. These centre lines are now used for storage of electric rail car sets in off peak times. The platforms feature long timber-framed canopies over some of the platforms (incorporating Howe trusses). Timber was used in lieu of steel because of the high cost at the time of importing steel.'

https://en.m.wikipedia.o..._railway_station,_Sydney
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Offline heinrichhess  
#7 Posted : 09 September 2023 15:35:22(UTC)
heinrichhess

United Kingdom   
Joined: 20/05/2023(UTC)
Posts: 214
Location: Wales, powys
first of all what a vid you have to see the ending for any 1 skipping forward synchronized trains to the sound of the can-can that has made my day not speaking French dose the big stemmers get switched for a shunting loco? i will need to add a place to switch on my drill lead to swap out loco may be have a coaling yard

i am running delta loco's so can revers however I'm using old analogue semaphore and 1 just to stop the main train until I'm ready to take control of it would be a good idea i have a continuous loop to loop layout and with old school automaton so the terminus station to take of trains of the main line and add to like i visible shadow station

kknj.png

hess
Offline heinrichhess  
#8 Posted : 09 September 2023 15:40:38(UTC)
heinrichhess

United Kingdom   
Joined: 20/05/2023(UTC)
Posts: 214
Location: Wales, powys
Originally Posted by: Toosmall Go to Quoted Post
Sydney Central Station has a mix of both, but has 15 terminus lines. It did have up to 19 terminus lines.

120326-A049_xlarge.jpg
(2012 photo from web)

The Indian Pacific train is split in two halves & uses two lines to the right of the photo, platforms 1, 2 or 3.

'As of 2020 , the weekly service consists of up to 25 carriages and two motorail wagons. Because of its length, the train is split in two when stabled at Sydney Central station.'

'The current 15 Sydney Terminal platforms run perpendicular to the main station concourse and all are dead ended with the buffer stop. They are arranged as seven double platforms and one single platform, each with an awning, servicing a total of 15 tracks. Platforms 1–3 are for country and interstate services, while the remainder are for interurban services.'

'Platforms 1–10 have a centre run-round track, which was for locomotive-hauled trains. It enabled the locomotive to uncouple from its train and either depart or re-couple on the other end to pull the train to the next destination. There was extreme pressure on the speed to ready a train for the next destination due to the lack of platform space and a steady growth of rail patronage. These centre lines are now used for storage of electric rail car sets in off peak times. The platforms feature long timber-framed canopies over some of the platforms (incorporating Howe trusses). Timber was used in lieu of steel because of the high cost at the time of importing steel.'

https://en.m.wikipedia.o..._railway_station,_Sydney




thanks toosmall been tring to fit the hole train onto small sation did not think about spliting train
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Offline marklinist5999  
#9 Posted : 09 September 2023 16:57:54(UTC)
marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 3,142
Location: Michigan, Troy
Bonn Germnay as well.
Offline mike c  
#10 Posted : 09 September 2023 18:55:23(UTC)
mike c

Canada   
Joined: 28/11/2007(UTC)
Posts: 7,899
Location: Montreal, QC
Dresden has an interesting mix of through and terminal tracks in the station. Other cities like Zurich or Stuttgart (to name a few) have underground through tracks beneath the so called Terminus Station at ground level. If you want to do a classic terminus, install uncoupler tracks about 30 cm from the end of each track, so that you can uncouple the locomotive and move it forward and then have another locomotive connect to the train at the other end and pull it out of the station

Regards

Mike C
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Offline IanC  
#11 Posted : 09 September 2023 22:19:56(UTC)
IanC

United Kingdom   
Joined: 05/03/2016(UTC)
Posts: 347
Location: England, Bedford
Stuttgart 21 is a mega engineering project to make S HBF a through station.

IanC
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#12 Posted : 10 September 2023 13:46:15(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,672
Location: Hybrid Home
Further to my post #4 about a train originating there, more current info about Hamburg-Altona passenger terminal shunting of "conventional" loco-hauled passenger trains (without push-pull cab coaches at the far end) upon arrival:


On track #5
An electric loco pulls a Nightjet (purely passenger cars) up to the buffer stop. After unloading the passengers, the road engine backs the train into the storage yard. No shunter involved, no uncoupling or coupling.

On track #6
A RDC mototrain is backed by the road engine into the station, with "leading" autoracks (motor vehicles already facing towards unloading ramp) being placed in front of the buffer stops, which double as unloading ramp. After unloading the motor vehicles and passengers, the road engine pulls the train into the storage yard. No shunter involved, no uncoupling or coupling.

On track #5
After the Nighjet disappeared, an electric loco pulls an ÖBB mototrain to the buffer stop. Trailing autoracks are uncoupled and picked up by a DB diesel shunter.
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Offline Toosmall  
#13 Posted : 10 September 2023 15:40:08(UTC)
Toosmall

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 616
Location: Sydney
Not a terminus station, but in effect a zig zig railway up a mountain is effectively the same thing, always backing in in one direction.

https://zigzagrailway.au/

zigzag01.jpg
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Offline heinrichhess  
#14 Posted : 11 September 2023 03:38:26(UTC)
heinrichhess

United Kingdom   
Joined: 20/05/2023(UTC)
Posts: 214
Location: Wales, powys
most use full
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Offline kimballthurlow  
#15 Posted : 11 September 2023 08:51:46(UTC)
kimballthurlow

Australia   
Joined: 18/03/2007(UTC)
Posts: 6,669
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Go to Quoted Post
As usual, there is a prototypical example for (almost) everything...
No shunter and neither uncoupling nor coupling involved.


Both of these stations backed trains into platforms regardless of which way they were ultimately headed.
The old St Louis Missouri terminal was famous for having through trains back into it by wye then ready to depart for other destinations.
It may still exist.
Toowoomba in Queensland is another one where trains going west or east first went forward by wye, then backed into the platform ready to head out again to continue the journey.

Kimball
HO Scale - Märklin (ep II-III and VI, C Track, digital) - 2 rail HO (Queensland Australia, UK, USA) - 3 rail OO (English Hornby Dublo) - old clockwork O gauge - Live Steam 90mm (3.1/2 inch) gauge.
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Offline Alsterstreek  
#16 Posted : 20 November 2023 14:12:35(UTC)
Alsterstreek

Germany   
Joined: 16/11/2011(UTC)
Posts: 5,672
Location: Hybrid Home
Ulrich Budde, the German godfather of "Bundesbahnzeit", explains the procedure of backing "traditonal" passenger trains (i.e., not equpipped with a push-pull control car at the rear end) into the Hamburg-Altona terminus in his report on the Hamburg-Eidelstedt ICE yard visit in May 1991:

"At this point, a brief explanation of the operating procedure in Altona for those not familiar with Hamburg; trains terminating at the Altona terminus are usually pushed into Langenfelde layover yard by the road locomotive after all passengers have disembarked. The last carriage, now the front of the train, is manned by shunting crew staff observing the pushed train from the rear vestibule and giving the driver the necessary driving instructions by radio. A simple, mobile hand valve connected to the brake hose of the last wagon enables him to operate the brakes directly himself. The same procedure is carried out in the opposite direction for trains starting in Altona, as here for the IC with 103 240.

Source: https://bundesbahnzeit.de/seite.php?id=757

Scroll down to image #23 with the caption: "A short distance along the line and finally I was exactly where I wanted to go. Directly opposite the Diebsteich S-Bahn station (in the background) we see 103 240, which backing the coaches for the IC639(?) "Kommodore" into Altona station."

P.S.: Also images 26, 28, 33, 37, 38, 40, 42, 46, 49, 52, 54, 55 & 56 document this procedure of the road engine pushing an empty passenger train (without push-pull control car at the rear end) either into the layover yard or the terminus.
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#17 Posted : 20 November 2023 15:29:55(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,109
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: Alsterstreek Go to Quoted Post


A number of interesting photos there.

43 & 44 qualify for another thread on this forum.

I haven't ever seen an E10 in red with white bib before (last photo).

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