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Offline einotuominen  
#1 Posted : 05 August 2023 15:06:22(UTC)
einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 382
Location: Kaarina
Hi,

Can someone explain what components are involved in wheel sensoring in order achieve squealing sound and flashing LEDs (sparks)? Decoders involved would be mSD3 and/or Loksound 5.

It would be interesting to build such a feature myself.

-Eino
Offline JohnjeanB  
#2 Posted : 05 August 2023 16:44:48(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,130
Location: Paris, France
Hi Eino
Yes on some (older) Märklin locos, there are wheel sensors in the form of a cylinder on one axle which is magnetized following 2 axles at a 90° angle (so to have N S N S in a full rotation.
This was used to generate the "chuff chuff" sound synchronized with wheels.

Example the first BR45 (37450) or the first Big Boy 37990).

Doing it that way lead to a simplified sound and additional cost (the magnet on one driving axle and the Hall transistor (sensitive to magnetic field).
Now it is made by synchronizing the wheel speed with the sound to reach 2, 3 or 4 strokes per driver rotation
My experience is also, the wheel sensor sometimes, does not work well with multiprotocols after all these years (My CS3 for instance). The likely cause is inducted electrical noise in the Hall transistor line.

Regarding squealing sound, it never had to do with a wheel sensor but a rather complex logic:
- must reach a set speed before any slowdown will trigger squealing sound
- a CV to set which speed it starts squealing
- other CVs.

Regarding AUX modulations (fire, blinking, Mars light, Telex, etc) it never had to do anything with a wheel sensor. All is done by the computer in the mSD3 or mSD2 decoder
I don't know much about ESU as I have only one LokSound 5 micro.
Cheers
Jean
Offline einotuominen  
#3 Posted : 05 August 2023 20:16:38(UTC)
einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 382
Location: Kaarina
Hi Jean,

I’m looking for the feature that Esuloks have. There is some sensor that triggers when bogies rotate (in curves) and then plays a squealing sound and flashes some LEDs pointing at the wheels.

But I guess the wheel sensor is not for this?

-Eino
Offline dickinsonj  
#4 Posted : 06 August 2023 01:34:26(UTC)
dickinsonj

United States   
Joined: 05/12/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,684
Location: Crozet, Virginia
I think those features are implemented in software on ESU locos and they do not require wheel sensors, although I could be wrong.

I have one beautiful ESU V200 with reliably squealing brakes both when slowing and in curves. The sparking is super cool and it is one of my favorite MRR tricks ever. BigGrin

It also has lighted instrument desk, cab and engine room lighting, and dynamic diesel exhaust. ESU has been making locos like this for years. ThumpUp
Regards,
Jim

I have almost all Märklin and mostly HO, although I do have a small number of Z gauge trains!
So many trains and so little time.
thanks 2 users liked this useful post by dickinsonj
Offline einotuominen  
#5 Posted : 07 August 2023 18:57:23(UTC)
einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 382
Location: Kaarina
Originally Posted by: dickinsonj Go to Quoted Post
I think those features are implemented in software on ESU locos and they do not require wheel sensors, although I could be wrong.


I guess the decoder will need to know when the bogie is rotated… 🤔

-Eino
Offline JohnjeanB  
#6 Posted : 07 August 2023 19:42:34(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,130
Location: Paris, France
Hi
Both ESU and Märklin decoders have inputs.
To detect a curve position, what is needed is a curve detector (bogie turned right or left and not straight) and NOT a wheel detector. Then the squealing sound may be triggered when the loco is moving and when the sensor is activated (no squealing when the loco is stopped).
This part is for sure.

How does ESU detect a bogie not in straight position? I don't know.
One simple and reliable way, I think is to use a small reed sensor. They have the particularity that, with a proper magnet orientation, when the magnet is right in center of the Reed, the contact is open and as soon it goes in one side or the other, the contact closes. This is when the magnetic field is perpendicular to the Reed axis.
The magnet must be small, away from the motor not to distort the magnetic field and attached to one of the bogies (or pony truck for a steamer).

Cheers
Jean
Offline einotuominen  
#7 Posted : 07 August 2023 20:11:19(UTC)
einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 382
Location: Kaarina
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post

One simple and reliable way, I think is to use a small reed sensor.


How would the reed be connected to the decoder?

-Eino
Offline bph  
#8 Posted : 07 August 2023 20:21:55(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 996
Originally Posted by: einotuominen Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: dickinsonj Go to Quoted Post
I think those features are implemented in software on ESU locos and they do not require wheel sensors, although I could be wrong.


I guess the decoder will need to know when the bogie is rotated… 🤔

-Eino


If I should guess, you can probably make something similar to the esu with an msd3. As you say put one or two sensors on the bogie and the reader in the centre of the chassis and when the bogie rotates a sensor input is triggered, playing the sound an flashing the led. but there is a big if and that is the Marklin decoder and getting compatible parts, yes the msd3 has sensor inputs and yes they work but it's not documented. But I managed to get the wheel sensor on my big boy to work perfectly fine on an msd3.
Offline einotuominen  
#9 Posted : 07 August 2023 20:30:55(UTC)
einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 382
Location: Kaarina
Originally Posted by: bph Go to Quoted Post


If I should guess, you can probably make something similar to the esu with an msd3. As you say put one or two sensors on the bogie and the reader in the centre of the chassis and when the bogie rotates a sensor input is triggered, playing the sound an flashing the led. but there is a big if and that is the Marklin decoder and getting compatible parts, yes the msd3 has sensor inputs and yes they work but it's not documented. But I managed to get the wheel sensor on my big boy to work perfectly fine on an msd3.


I can also use Loksound 5.

-Eino
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by einotuominen
bph
Offline JohnjeanB  
#10 Posted : 07 August 2023 22:56:54(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,130
Location: Paris, France
Originally Posted by: einotuominen Go to Quoted Post
How would the reed be connected to the decoder?

With a mSD3 decoder, it would be on side of the Reed to the decoder's input and the other side to the frame
*** Edit ***
Checking again on both Märklin and ESU I found Märklin does say a word on its input coming to Pins 1 and 2 of the 21MTC interface.
On the LokSound5, page 91 of the manual, it says up to 5 inputs are available but not in all configuration.
With MTC21 one "wheel sensor" is available and can condition fonctions.
Some digging on the LokProgramer is advisable.
The advised sensor is a Hall transistor connected to 0, +5V and the input (see page 34 of manual below

LokSound5 manual
Cheers
Jean
thanks 1 user liked this useful post by JohnjeanB
Offline Mark5  
#11 Posted : 10 August 2023 21:02:51(UTC)
Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,420
Location: Montreal, Canada
Link failed. Correct link for ESU Lok 5 can be downloaded with a few clicks and Captcha from here.
https://www.manualslib.c.../Esu-Loksound-5-Dcc.html


Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: einotuominen Go to Quoted Post
How would the reed be connected to the decoder?

........
The advised sensor is a Hall transistor connected to 0, +5V and the input (see page 34 of manual below

LokSound5 manual


DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70.
In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
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