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Booster is needed as layout grows - Rewiring for booster
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Offline petestra  
#1 Posted : 01 August 2023 14:39:57(UTC)
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petestra

United States   
Joined: 27/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 5,824
Location: Leesburg,VA.USA
Hello friends. My layout has recently gotten to the point where I need to install a booster. I noticed that at times a switch and/or signal was

not responding to digital commands and a lok would run and when I tried to slow it down, it would also not respond and keep running and I would

have to push the STOP button. I was told by the USA Digital team that I needed a booster. I have the new Booster and its trafo and right now

I am separating the upper-level red wires from the lower-level red wires. It's a big job which may take a week or so. Then I will install the

insulators on the up to upper-level track and the down to lower-level track. Then I will hook up the booster to the lower-level and the CS3

will continue to control the upper-level. Any advice you can give me regarding this procedure will gladly be greatly appreciated. I always will

find experts here. Thank you. Peter. Cool

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Offline marklinist5999  
#2 Posted : 01 August 2023 15:07:14(UTC)
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marklinist5999

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Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 3,139
Location: Michigan, Troy
Pete, now I don't feel so bad about "my" spaghetti!
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Offline petestra  
#3 Posted : 01 August 2023 16:14:22(UTC)
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petestra

United States   
Joined: 27/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 5,824
Location: Leesburg,VA.USA
Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 Go to Quoted Post
Pete, now I don't feel so bad about "my" spaghetti!


My Italian nana would have said,

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Offline French_Fabrice  
#4 Posted : 01 August 2023 17:12:57(UTC)
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French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,476
Location: Lyon, France
Hello Peter,

Yeah, nice spaghetti dish BigGrin

An advice about the place where to put insulators : Do not put them at a place where a loco could stop regularly, in order to avoid the slider to make contact between both sections for a long time. This will prevent shortcuts.

Cheers
Fabrice
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Offline petestra  
#5 Posted : 01 August 2023 17:38:33(UTC)
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petestra

United States   
Joined: 27/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 5,824
Location: Leesburg,VA.USA
Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice Go to Quoted Post
Hello Peter,

Yeah, nice spaghetti dish BigGrin

An advice about the place where to put insulators : Do not put them at a place where a loco could stop regularly, in order to avoid the slider to make contact between both sections for a long time. This will prevent shortcuts.

Cheers
Fabrice


Thank you for the tip, Fabrice. Yes, I'm going to put them on the up-track (access to upper-level from lower-level) and on the down-track (access to lower-level from the upper-level).

They won't be near any signals either. Cheers, Peter. BigGrin ThumpUp ThumpUp ThumpUp

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Offline mrmarklin  
#6 Posted : 01 August 2023 18:29:30(UTC)
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mrmarklin

United States   
Joined: 27/10/2004(UTC)
Posts: 895
Location: Burney, CA
I would buy one more booster. That way the CS3 would have its own, and full power on the rest of the layout. That’s the way mine is wired, and never a problem. One cannot have enough, almost.
From the People's Republik of Kalifornia
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Offline petestra  
#7 Posted : 01 August 2023 18:53:01(UTC)
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petestra

United States   
Joined: 27/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 5,824
Location: Leesburg,VA.USA
Originally Posted by: mrmarklin Go to Quoted Post
I would buy one more booster. That way the CS3 would have its own, and full power on the rest of the layout. That’s the way mine is wired, and never a problem. One cannot have enough, almost.



Thanks for the tip. I'm going to see how things work out first, then I may just do that. There is only one wire in-take on the CS3 for one booster.

How do you wire up two to the CS3? Thanks, Peter.


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Offline French_Fabrice  
#8 Posted : 01 August 2023 21:17:37(UTC)
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French_Fabrice

France   
Joined: 16/05/2011(UTC)
Posts: 1,476
Location: Lyon, France
Hello Peter,

If you want to add more than one booster, then you need a 'Terminal' (60145).
This 'Terminal' is plugged into the CS3, and the boosters are plugged into the 'Terminal'.

See this page https://www.maerklin.de/...ts/details/article/60145 and download the manual for connection details.

Cheers
Fabrice

PS: Some pics on my 'Terminal' can be found there: https://www.marklin-user...I---Evolution#post581239
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Offline petestra  
#9 Posted : 01 August 2023 21:30:28(UTC)
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petestra

United States   
Joined: 27/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 5,824
Location: Leesburg,VA.USA
Originally Posted by: French_Fabrice Go to Quoted Post
Hello Peter,

If you want to add more than one booster, then you need a 'Terminal' (60145).
This 'Terminal' is plugged into the CS3, and the boosters are plugged into the 'Terminal'.

See this page https://www.maerklin.de/...ts/details/article/60145 and download the manual for connection details.

Cheers
Fabrice

PS: Some pics on my 'Terminal' can be found there: https://www.marklin-user...I---Evolution#post581239



Hi Fabrice. Thanks for this important info. I'm going to see how things go with one booster first but I will keep this all in mind. So glad I came onto

the forum for more info. Thanks again, Peter. ThumpUp ThumpUp ThumpUp
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Offline heinrichhess  
#10 Posted : 02 August 2023 00:17:11(UTC)
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heinrichhess

United Kingdom   
Joined: 20/05/2023(UTC)
Posts: 214
Location: Wales, powys
i was under the impression you can not add boosters to digitalConfused
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Offline applor  
#11 Posted : 02 August 2023 00:23:28(UTC)
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applor

Australia   
Joined: 21/05/2004(UTC)
Posts: 1,654
Location: Brisbane, Queensland
Have you checked on your CS3 to see exactly what the output load is?
It may be a bad connection rather than too much load.

Your other option is to rewire your accessories to a separate power supply instead of track feed, to take the load without needing to buy a booster.
modelling era IIIa (1951-1955) Germany
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Offline Goofy  
#12 Posted : 02 August 2023 08:20:37(UTC)
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Goofy


Joined: 12/08/2006(UTC)
Posts: 9,019
Originally Posted by: petestra Go to Quoted Post
Hello friends. My layout has recently gotten to the point where I need to install a booster. I noticed that at times a switch and/or signal was

not responding to digital commands



Have you tried to use external power feed to m83 and m84?
I am not sure if you use those accessories?

H0
DCC = Digital Command Control
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Offline marklinist5999  
#13 Posted : 02 August 2023 13:48:11(UTC)
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marklinist5999

United States   
Joined: 10/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 3,139
Location: Michigan, Troy
Booster are strictly for Digital! The CS3 has a quite powerful one in it.
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Offline petestra  
#14 Posted : 02 August 2023 14:26:41(UTC)
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petestra

United States   
Joined: 27/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 5,824
Location: Leesburg,VA.USA
Originally Posted by: Goofy Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: petestra Go to Quoted Post
Hello friends. My layout has recently gotten to the point where I need to install a booster. I noticed that at times a switch and/or signal was

not responding to digital commands



Have you tried to use external power feed to m83 and m84?
I am not sure if you use those accessories?



Hello. I started in Digital late. (2013), so I use MS2s and the CS3. Thanks, Peter. Cool
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Offline petestra  
#15 Posted : 02 August 2023 14:34:54(UTC)
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petestra

United States   
Joined: 27/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 5,824
Location: Leesburg,VA.USA
Originally Posted by: marklinist5999 Go to Quoted Post
Booster are strictly for Digital! The CS3 has a quite powerful one in it.


Hi and thanks. Yes, I still run many analog switches/signals and they, of course, are wired to yellow/brown to analog trafos.

My layout, since 2013, now has 41 digital switches/signals. These plus the amount of trains I run at the same time (usually 8-9 trains), I understand,

is the main power consumer. Recently, I added a few more digital switches/signals, which have caused the operating problems that I mentioned in

my first comment on this thread. Thanks for your help and comment. Cheers, Peter. Cool
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Offline Chris6382chris  
#16 Posted : 03 August 2023 05:03:57(UTC)
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Chris6382chris

United States   
Joined: 27/11/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,215
Location: Middle of the US
Originally Posted by: petestra Go to Quoted Post
Hello friends. My layout has recently gotten to the point where I need to install a booster. I noticed that at times a switch and/or signal was

not responding to digital commands and a lok would run and when I tried to slow it down, it would also not respond and keep running and I would

have to push the STOP button. I was told by the USA Digital team that I needed a booster. I have the new Booster and its trafo and right now

I am separating the upper-level red wires from the lower-level red wires. It's a big job which may take a week or so. Then I will install the

insulators on the up to upper-level track and the down to lower-level track. Then I will hook up the booster to the lower-level and the CS3

will continue to control the upper-level. Any advice you can give me regarding this procedure will gladly be greatly appreciated. I always will

find experts here. Thank you. Peter. Cool

UserPostedImage



Hi Peter. Something I learned when I added a booster was don't forget your contact tracks that feed back to your S88 or in my case my ESU LokDetectors. Make sure the power supplying those units match up with the power blocks for your booster. I don't know what you are using for occupancy detection but if it is via contact tracks pay attention to the power supply.

Hope that makes sense.

Chris
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Offline Drongo  
#17 Posted : 03 August 2023 08:56:51(UTC)
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Drongo

Australia   
Joined: 03/06/2008(UTC)
Posts: 1,226
Location: Sydney, NSW
Originally Posted by: petestra Go to Quoted Post
Hello friends. My layout has recently gotten to the point where I need to install a booster. I noticed that at times a switch and/or signal was

not responding to digital commands and a lok would run and when I tried to slow it down, it would also not respond and keep running and I would

have to push the STOP button. I was told by the USA Digital team that I needed a booster. I have the new Booster and its trafo and right now

I am separating the upper-level red wires from the lower-level red wires. It's a big job which may take a week or so. Then I will install the

insulators on the up to upper-level track and the down to lower-level track. Then I will hook up the booster to the lower-level and the CS3

will continue to control the upper-level. Any advice you can give me regarding this procedure will gladly be greatly appreciated. I always will

find experts here. Thank you. Peter. Cool

UserPostedImage



Hi Peter,

We could start a competition to see who has the "Best" spagetti. I'm too embarrassed to show anyone a photo of my layout. BigGrin BigGrin BigGrin
Take it easy . . . . or any other way you can get it !!!!
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Offline petestra  
#18 Posted : 03 August 2023 11:43:17(UTC)
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petestra

United States   
Joined: 27/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 5,824
Location: Leesburg,VA.USA
[
Hi Peter. Something I learned when I added a booster was don't forget your contact tracks that feed back to your S88 or in my case my ESU LokDetectors. Make sure the power supplying those units match up with the power blocks for your booster. I don't know what you are using for occupancy detection but if it is via contact tracks pay attention to the power supply.

Hope that makes sense.

Chris


Hi Chris. Hope you and your family are well. Good point. I have 1 S88 and I've detached that red wire for separation. I have separated upper-lever and lower-lever

red wires to different buses. One red loop will connect to the booster which is for the lower-level and a separate loop will be for the upper-level connected to the CS3.

Thanks for your help. Peter. Cool ThumpUp
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Offline bph  
#19 Posted : 03 August 2023 12:45:30(UTC)
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bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 996
If you don't have it, I would recommend that you consider some thicker feeder wires from the cs3 and booster, eg like Fabrice has done it.
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Offline petestra  
#20 Posted : 03 August 2023 14:02:15(UTC)
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petestra

United States   
Joined: 27/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 5,824
Location: Leesburg,VA.USA
Originally Posted by: bph Go to Quoted Post
If you don't have it, I would recommend that you consider some thicker feeder wires from the cs3 and booster, eg like Fabrice has done it.


Hi and thanks. Yes, I have them. One pair for upper and one for lower level. Cheers, Peter. Cool
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bph
Offline Martti Mäntylä  
#21 Posted : 03 August 2023 23:22:13(UTC)
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Martti Mäntylä

Finland   
Joined: 15/11/2018(UTC)
Posts: 398
Location: Uusimaa, Helsinki
Originally Posted by: Chris6382chris Go to Quoted Post

Hi Peter. Something I learned when I added a booster was don't forget your contact tracks that feed back to your S88 or in my case my ESU LokDetectors. Make sure the power supplying those units match up with the power blocks for your booster. I don't know what you are using for occupancy detection but if it is via contact tracks pay attention to the power supply.

Why should this matter? Sensing with contact tracks is just a measurement of whether the two outer rails are connected or not. The track power in the middle rail is not relevant for this. I must have misunderstood something.

- Martti M.
Era III analog & digital (Rocrail, CAN Digital Bahn, Gleisbox/MS2, K83/K84), C & M tracks, some Spur 1
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Offline petestra  
#22 Posted : 03 August 2023 23:41:33(UTC)
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petestra

United States   
Joined: 27/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 5,824
Location: Leesburg,VA.USA
Originally Posted by: Martti Mäntylä Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Chris6382chris Go to Quoted Post

Hi Peter. Something I learned when I added a booster was don't forget your contact tracks that feed back to your S88 or in my case my ESU LokDetectors. Make sure the power supplying those units match up with the power blocks for your booster. I don't know what you are using for occupancy detection but if it is via contact tracks pay attention to the power supply.

Why should this matter? Sensing with contact tracks is just a measurement of whether the two outer rails are connected or not. The track power in the middle rail is not relevant for this. I must have misunderstood something.



Hello. I don't understand the reasoning behind it but I did it. I have separated all upper-level red wires (for CS3) and lower-level red wires (for Booster). This is

what the instructions for the booster state. The 3 analog switches I have hooked up to the M83 decoder has one red wire and that I have hooked up to the

upper-level red wire bus. My contact tracks for signal switching I will not change. Cheers, Peter. Cool

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Offline Chris6382chris  
#23 Posted : 04 August 2023 05:31:34(UTC)
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Chris6382chris

United States   
Joined: 27/11/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,215
Location: Middle of the US
Originally Posted by: Martti Mäntylä Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Chris6382chris Go to Quoted Post

Hi Peter. Something I learned when I added a booster was don't forget your contact tracks that feed back to your S88 or in my case my ESU LokDetectors. Make sure the power supplying those units match up with the power blocks for your booster. I don't know what you are using for occupancy detection but if it is via contact tracks pay attention to the power supply.

Why should this matter? Sensing with contact tracks is just a measurement of whether the two outer rails are connected or not. The track power in the middle rail is not relevant for this. I must have misunderstood something.



I am using an ECOS and ECOS Detector so perhaps using a CS3 and S88 is different. If you have your ECOS Detector monitoring contact tracks being fed by the booster and by the main controller and both contact tracks are in use you can get a short. That is why in the manual for the ECOS Detector on page 9 it says:

In the example shown in figure 8 both
feedback groups “A” and “B” are supplied by the same booster. Therefore the terminals “0” and “B” on both sides of the ECoSDetector must be connected with each other. If you use a separate
ECoSBoost for group “B” (feedback inputs 9 through 16) then the module must be wired as described in chapter 6.4.

6.4 says:


The feedback inputs of the ECoSDetector are divided into two
groups: “A” (inputs 1 through 8) and “B” (inputs 9 through16).
These two groups can be supplied by two different booster sectors. Each feedback group has terminals “B” and “0” to be connected to the booster outputs that supplies power for the track
sector to be monitored. In figure 9 we show an example of how to wire a 3-rail system where both feedback groups receive power from their own separate power supply (group “A” form the ECoS and group “B” from a separate ECoSBoost.
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Offline Mark5  
#24 Posted : 04 August 2023 07:04:15(UTC)
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Mark5

Canada   
Joined: 29/01/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,420
Location: Montreal, Canada
Been away from the forum for a while due to a needed recovery. Feeling much better... So going over old posts again and doing more research. So much information to mine.

Now, this is from a while back but wondering what gauge wire you would recommend to go to main feeder wires.
Originally Posted by: bph Go to Quoted Post
If you don't have it, I would recommend that you consider some thicker feeder wires from the cs3 and booster, eg like Fabrice has done it.
DB DR FS NS SNCF c. 1950-65, fan of station architecture esp. from 1920-70.
In single point perspective, where do track lines meet?
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Offline petestra  
#25 Posted : 04 August 2023 11:43:45(UTC)
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petestra

United States   
Joined: 27/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 5,824
Location: Leesburg,VA.USA
]
Hi Peter. Something I learned when I added a booster was don't forget your contact tracks that feed back to your S88 or in my case my ESU LokDetectors. Make sure the power supplying those units match up with the power blocks for your booster. I don't know what you are using for occupancy detection but if it is via contact tracks pay attention to the power supply.

Why should this matter? Sensing with contact tracks is just a measurement of whether the two outer rails are connected or not. The track power in the middle rail is not relevant for this. I must have misunderstood something.

I am using an ECOS and ECOS Detector so perhaps using a CS3 and S88 is different. If you have your ECOS Detector monitoring contact tracks being fed by the booster and by the main controller and both contact tracks are in use you can get a short. That is why in the manual for the ECOS Detector on page 9 it says:

In the example shown in figure 8 both
feedback groups “A” and “B” are supplied by the same booster. Therefore the terminals “0” and “B” on both sides of the ECoSDetector must be connected with each other. If you use a separate
ECoSBoost for group “B” (feedback inputs 9 through 16) then the module must be wired as described in chapter 6.4.

6.4 says:


The feedback inputs of the ECoSDetector are divided into two
groups: “A” (inputs 1 through 8) and “B” (inputs 9 through16).
These two groups can be supplied by two different booster sectors. Each feedback group has terminals “B” and “0” to be connected to the booster outputs that supplies power for the track
sector to be monitored. In figure 9 we show an example of how to wire a 3-rail system where both feedback groups receive power from their own separate power supply (group “A” form the ECoS and group “B” from a separate ECoSBoost.

Hi Chris and thanks for the info. I don't use the S88, it's the M83, my error earlier. sorry. I don't have to separate the brown wires. It states that in booster instructions. Also, I use

contact tracks but only the momentary ones with the rocker in the center which allows for bi-directional traffic. Cheers, Peter. Cool

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Offline petestra  
#26 Posted : 04 August 2023 12:28:31(UTC)
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petestra

United States   
Joined: 27/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 5,824
Location: Leesburg,VA.USA
Originally Posted by: Mark5 Go to Quoted Post
Been away from the forum for a while due to a needed recovery. Feeling much better... So going over old posts again and doing more research. So much information to mine.

Now, this is from a while back but wondering what gauge wire you would recommend to go to main feeder wires.
Originally Posted by: bph Go to Quoted Post
If you don't have it, I would recommend that you consider some thicker feeder wires from the cs3 and booster, eg like Fabrice has done it.



Hi Mark and welcome back. I don't know the wire guage, but it is this wire Marklin 74040. Peter.
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Offline Chris6382chris  
#27 Posted : 04 August 2023 13:04:05(UTC)
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Chris6382chris

United States   
Joined: 27/11/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,215
Location: Middle of the US
Originally Posted by: petestra Go to Quoted Post
]
Hi Peter. Something I learned when I added a booster was don't forget your contact tracks that feed back to your S88 or in my case my ESU LokDetectors. Make sure the power supplying those units match up with the power blocks for your booster. I don't know what you are using for occupancy detection but if it is via contact tracks pay attention to the power supply.

Why should this matter? Sensing with contact tracks is just a measurement of whether the two outer rails are connected or not. The track power in the middle rail is not relevant for this. I must have misunderstood something.

I am using an ECOS and ECOS Detector so perhaps using a CS3 and S88 is different. If you have your ECOS Detector monitoring contact tracks being fed by the booster and by the main controller and both contact tracks are in use you can get a short. That is why in the manual for the ECOS Detector on page 9 it says:

In the example shown in figure 8 both
feedback groups “A” and “B” are supplied by the same booster. Therefore the terminals “0” and “B” on both sides of the ECoSDetector must be connected with each other. If you use a separate
ECoSBoost for group “B” (feedback inputs 9 through 16) then the module must be wired as described in chapter 6.4.

6.4 says:


The feedback inputs of the ECoSDetector are divided into two
groups: “A” (inputs 1 through 8) and “B” (inputs 9 through16).
These two groups can be supplied by two different booster sectors. Each feedback group has terminals “B” and “0” to be connected to the booster outputs that supplies power for the track
sector to be monitored. In figure 9 we show an example of how to wire a 3-rail system where both feedback groups receive power from their own separate power supply (group “A” form the ECoS and group “B” from a separate ECoSBoost.

Hi Chris and thanks for the info. I don't use the S88, it's the M83, my error earlier. sorry. I don't have to separate the brown wires. It states that in booster instructions. Also, I use

contact tracks but only the momentary ones with the rocker in the center which allows for bi-directional traffic. Cheers, Peter. Cool



My apologies then for sharing not so useful information. In any event good luck with the wiring.

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Offline Luma Moba  
#28 Posted : 06 August 2023 23:21:41(UTC)
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Luma Moba

Portugal   
Joined: 05/08/2023(UTC)
Posts: 28
Location: Portugal
Ave Peter,

nice to see you here, can not help with the Booster, but as I saw the photo of you cables hanging down ...
be warned cause I left only 4 power cables connected to the tracks hanging down to the ground and
my cat and her friends had a rave party all noite long ...

have fun
Luma
Do not do to others what you do not want to suffer yourself
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Offline petestra  
#29 Posted : 18 August 2023 18:57:14(UTC)
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petestra

United States   
Joined: 27/07/2009(UTC)
Posts: 5,824
Location: Leesburg,VA.USA
Hello fellow M fans. After a few weeks of hard work, the booster has been installed. Booster light is on bright and all is running

well again. It was a lot more difficult than I thought it would be but it's a good feeling when you know it's done and done right.

I made a new upper-level red wire loop with buses and also a new lower-level red wire loop with its buses as well.

Most of the work was separating the red wires (upper level ones from lower level ones) and then there were the red wires which

I use on the main lines to turn power on/off for bi-directional running so that the train doesn't stop at a red light facing the other way.

I am probably the only person who has ever done this, but it was one of those things that bothered me. Cheers, Peter. Cool

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