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Offline Manga  
#1 Posted : 22 June 2023 10:45:18(UTC)
Manga

Australia   
Joined: 22/07/2022(UTC)
Posts: 46
Location: New South Wales, Sydney
Background
My first ever layout.
I have only built some test/dioramas to get started with modelling, but I think I am multi-skilled and can do this layout build.

My layout will be loosely based on the Château-d'Oex train station in Switzerland because I bought a kit for it when I was a beginner with no real planning. I was so eager to start, it looked good and it wasn't too big for my available space.

A mostly rural/alpine scene throughout, with a small town scene.

I have only 1200 x 600mm available space - a bit less when considering how close the track is to the edges. It will be built in Z-scale (1:220)

Scenery features I want
  • A river (-50mm below the track level)
  • A mountain scene with winding road and chalet (approx 80mm high)
  • A tunnel under the mountain (50mm high)
  • A train station and accompanying small town scene
  • A farm scene, farm house, paddock, and 1 or 2 stables
  • Severals roads, one of which will cross the tracks
  • Bridges, some bought, others scratch built

Scenery will be below and above the track height (to resemble the real world)

Train features I want
  • Running trains continuously
  • Max train length is 600mm; that is a diesel locomotive + 4 passenger cars (need some amount of length to qualify as a train :). This is also my calculated max train length to shunt off into spurs.
  • Working catenary throughout
  • As its a boring double loop (due to space constraints), the train will automatically switch between inner and outer loop to add a bit more interest. Works in both directions, so the switching mechanism is roughly placed midway between points and considering the overall max train length
  • Inner and outer loop will be their own electrical section, so to control one or both trains at once. I could even have two trains running simultanousely, one on the inner and another on the outer loop.
  • Some switching action via 3 spurs to handle the max train length sans locomotive. The spurs will be the 3rd electrical section so I can switch cars whilst having running trains on the loops.
  • Train detection when entering station area to slow it gradually
  • Decouplers in the spurs and also one in the outer loop
  • Signalling. Still working this out!


Modelling
Most buildings will be kits, however I will need to do some scratch building as follows:

The hotel next to the train station - as per the prototype (major challenge)
The locomotive house - almost like the prototype with concrete base, and wooden sides with window panes (medium challenge)
Some bridges (will use toothpicks/matchsticks - minor challenge) and culverts (pre-fabricated styrene tubes - again a minor challenge)

What I have already built
Baseboard with support beams for wiring (though this will need some modifications for the river bed that will be 50mm lower than the track)
A frame to hold either old bed sheets or some form of sturdy, yet light weight clear plastic to minimise dust accumulating on the layout (I live in a very dusty area)




Design
001 terrain and river.jpg
The river starts in the mountains (green area), through culverts under roads and then forms a river that goes under arched bridges

002 roads.jpg
Roads. Right-hand side meanders up the mountain. Several elevation changes. Large area is for the station parking, small area for hotel parking.

003 buildings.jpg
Buildings. Farm area beside river and going up the hills. On the right, a Chalet over the tunnel. Top-left, some houses to make a small town scene.

004 track.jpg
Track. Block sections coloured in green/blue/pink. Catenary mast position mock-up.The right semi-circle will be a tunnel.

005 train and passenger cars superimposed on top.jpg
Loco and passengers cars superimposed to get a sense if the longest train will fit

Conclusion
How am I doing ?

Any obvious issues ?

This there too much to fit into the space, without enough neutral space (paddocks, grassland, road, carparks etc...) to make it look realistic ?

Suggestions for improvements ?

Edited by user 23 June 2023 00:20:31(UTC)  | Reason: Added missing mountain area

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Offline JohnjeanB  
#2 Posted : 22 June 2023 13:22:27(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,126
Location: Paris, France
Hi
I am not qualified to make a judgment on your proposed layout but here are my notes:
- excellent layout where emphasis is on the landscape (opposite to spagetti layout with tracks all over the place.
- I am a big fan of reversing loop but in Z scale it is more difficult (just an electrical trick with diodes
- you double loop is prone for train circulation
- obviously you planned for a long side tracks for cars and wagons and a little storage for loco

Again, no specialist here but I like your layout and I don't see any mistakes.
Note: there is no ideal layout for everybody but rather it depends on the available space, the proferred operation (running, shunting, etc)

Here is my ideal layout (full of mistakes, but that is how you learn). Here in HO, L-shaped, 3.5 x 4 meters


Cheers
Jean
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Offline heinrichhess  
#3 Posted : 22 June 2023 13:28:17(UTC)
heinrichhess

United Kingdom   
Joined: 20/05/2023(UTC)
Posts: 214
Location: Wales, powys
to brake the monotony of a double loop have a hidden track operated by signals so your train will enter and a different train will emerge automatic this will allow you to spend time waiting for trains to arrive at station with this hidden section you can add you fields that you desire all the best hess

track help.png
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Offline Toosmall  
#4 Posted : 22 June 2023 16:02:40(UTC)
Toosmall

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 616
Location: Sydney
The Château-d'Oex train station looks nice.

I would remove one siding pull the opposite side in so you have a bit more scenery on the outside of the track. A long straight section next to the edge needs a bit of room to look good. Maybe even twist the entire track plan counter clockwise 2°. Just a thought.

Draw it at 1:220 or print it on a series of A3 or A4 sheets so you get a better feel of the finished size (master plan). Plonk objects on the plan to see how things fit. You will get a better feel for clearances. Trees look great but architects have a third of every tree stuck into a building or whatever, you need room for growies!

Better to waste some paper (& cardboard out of people's blue bins!) than finding problems later.

You could build a slot/hole into each corner to put in some frames to support cover, rather than an extra external frame.


A slight modification of a tunnel, an avalanche protection tunnel so you still see the train. A short section might be easier to fit than a larger mountain.
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Offline Manga  
#5 Posted : 23 June 2023 00:24:20(UTC)
Manga

Australia   
Joined: 22/07/2022(UTC)
Posts: 46
Location: New South Wales, Sydney
Originally Posted by: heinrichhess Go to Quoted Post
to brake the monotony of a double loop have a hidden track operated by signals so your train will enter and a different train will emerge automatic this will allow you to spend time waiting for trains to arrive at station with this hidden section you can add you fields that you desire all the best hess

track help.png


Splendid idea. I have a tunnel on the right semi-circle of track (which wasn't so obvious in the first images I posted). I could add some block sections in there, my longest train (600mm) should fit inside the tunnel.
Offline Manga  
#6 Posted : 23 June 2023 01:02:39(UTC)
Manga

Australia   
Joined: 22/07/2022(UTC)
Posts: 46
Location: New South Wales, Sydney
Originally Posted by: Toosmall Go to Quoted Post

I would remove one siding pull the opposite side in so you have a bit more scenery on the outside of the track. A long straight section next to the edge needs a bit of room to look good.

I need three spurs so that I can park a train on one spur, pull off cars into a second, and use the third spur to reassemble another train consist

Originally Posted by: Toosmall Go to Quoted Post

Maybe even twist the entire track plan counter clockwise 2°. Just a thought.

Yes, might give that a try so that tracks are not parallel with the baseboard edges

Originally Posted by: Toosmall Go to Quoted Post

Draw it at 1:220 or print it on a series of A3 or A4 sheets so you get a better feel of the finished size (master plan). Plonk objects on the plan to see how things fit. You will get a better feel for clearances. Trees look great but architects have a third of every tree stuck into a building or whatever, you need room for growies!

Better to waste some paper (& cardboard out of people's blue bins!) than finding problems later.

Already doing that. I'm making cardboard mock-ups to see how things look and spacing etc...Cardboard mockup of station.jpg

Originally Posted by: Toosmall Go to Quoted Post

You could build a slot/hole into each corner to put in some frames to support cover, rather than an extra external frame.

That was my initial idea, but it would encroach on my already limited space for scenery at the edges. I have built a frame that is outside the 1200 x 600mm baseboard

Originally Posted by: Toosmall Go to Quoted Post

A slight modification of a tunnel, an avalanche protection tunnel so you still see the train. A short section might be easier to fit than a larger mountain.

Interesting idea, might give it some thought
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Offline Toosmall  
#7 Posted : 23 June 2023 03:07:31(UTC)
Toosmall

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 616
Location: Sydney
My personal experience it that Z gauge lends itself to long trains, long runs & interesting scenery.

Think very carefully about shunting. Maybe set up the layout on a flat board with electrics.

The electrics can simply be copied to final scenery design.

If you are happy with 2 simple loops, then build the scenery.

Offline Toosmall  
#8 Posted : 23 June 2023 03:30:15(UTC)
Toosmall

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 616
Location: Sydney
I had welded onto the aluminium frame at either end an aluminium section to place a 25.4mm square hollow extrusion to mount poles either for lighting or cover. If I don't use them they could be covered with a bit of scenery.

Easier to build in options from the start.

I have built enough architectural models. The base board's main issue is twist. You need a quality corner to corner brace (45° bracing) for rigidity of the model.

For a train layout I would add some metal corner brackets, glued, screwed & machined (by hand is ok) to precise tolerances.

default_92.jpg
(Overhead lighting/cover socket, bottom left corner of photo)
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Offline Carim  
#9 Posted : 23 June 2023 11:10:27(UTC)
Carim

United Kingdom   
Joined: 15/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 653
Location: London
Hi Manga,

I like the way you have gone about thinking about your design.

One thing that I am not too keen on is straight tracks running parallel to the baseboard edge - I know it can't be avoided sometimes - but if you could offset the baseboard at even a slight angle, that would help. An alternative, could be to have an extra shaped (say a curve) scenery module that is just temporarily clamped to the main baseboard during running/photographing sessions.

I wouldn't be put off from shunting in Z. The new locos with the brushless motors have excellent slow-motion control, especially if you use better controllers than the Märklin ones. I don't like the automatic uncouplers and just use a pointy device (a tooth pick will do) - but I have seen plenty of bigger scale, exhibition layouts that employ "the hand of God" approach as well.

Carim

p.s. if you are planning long tunnels, make sure you have some way of accessing the tracks in them - sods' law says this is where derailments will happen
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Offline Manga  
#10 Posted : 17 July 2023 12:56:50(UTC)
Manga

Australia   
Joined: 22/07/2022(UTC)
Posts: 46
Location: New South Wales, Sydney
There is only so much you can do in a very limited space.

Straight lines
I have skewed the layout 2% anti-clockwise so that the tracks are not parallel to the edges of the baseboard.
That's as far as I can go and still fit in catenary masts, the spurs, lok shed and needed edge scenery.

Bridges
I was planning on having 2x Märklin 8975 arched bridges, but re-designed that area to have a curved section of track for a scratch built old wooden bridge in the foreground and 1x Märklin 8975 arched bridge in the background (old and new look). The curved tracks should also help break up the monotony of a loop.

014.Curved wooden bridge and pass through rock.Skewed 2 degrees anti-clockwise.jpg

3D
Here is a 3D rendering to get a sense of what the topology might be like.
Overall scene will be hills on either side, then a drop into a valley in the middle with river under the bridges.
Road will dip down in the middle and also follow the river.

3D rendering.jpg

River
I'd want to use deep pour epoxy resin for the river to add realistic depth, so will likely have to make the river bed in steps up to the mountain so that the epoxy sits in each step, otherwise it will all flow down to the lowest level when poured.

The hardest thing in this hobby is having a 3D mental map in your head and how to transfer that into a structural design.
Next challenge is to design how the wooden contour pieces will fit to support the track and scenery and wire netting to place scenery on top of.
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Offline Toosmall  
#11 Posted : 17 July 2023 15:20:24(UTC)
Toosmall

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 616
Location: Sydney
You don't want to use polyurethane casting resin? It doesn't stink like epoxy resin which is all pervasive. I used a litre of it to pour the Märklin Z Gauge layout.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ILdK3omSzj8

It's all about preparation, preparation & preparation & if there is the slightest hint of not being sure, leave the pouring for another day.

I left this water pretty clear as I wanted a fresh clear water mountain look. Added a touch of blue pigment. Do a few tests first. As already said, preparation, you only get one go. So have all tools and everything at the ready, cleaning equipment, rags.

Water1.jpg

Water2.jpg

You can't actually see it, but the water has a cross section. Sealed & fastened an end plate on both ends of the river. The river bed foundation is a bit of thin plywood curved. I was trying to stretch 1 litre as I really needed a bit more. Hence the old stone bridge (I hand built) with many footings to take up volume "below water".
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Offline Toosmall  
#12 Posted : 19 July 2023 01:05:09(UTC)
Toosmall

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 616
Location: Sydney
Other suggestions. Actually go through the entire motion of pretending to pour the resin. Then pretend the process of texturing the surface, you don't have long once the resin starts to set. So prioritise key areas for texturing. Paddlepop sticks are handy, some with precut points. You need multiple tools of everything at the ready & plenty of disposable things. You are a heart surgeon & don't have the time to be fluffing around!

Good 'point' lighting from a couple of directions so you can see surface textures you are creating.

If you have different levels you just have to do than in seperate pourings. Builders level to set up the base to the angle of the water surface you need.

A hair dryer for surface texturing is handy (better not use Wifiy's hair dryer), on extension lead. Be careful not to over do it.

Back to the very beginning, make sure all the under water scenery is in place, rocks, growies, drowned body etc!
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Offline Manga  
#13 Posted : 19 July 2023 10:21:08(UTC)
Manga

Australia   
Joined: 22/07/2022(UTC)
Posts: 46
Location: New South Wales, Sydney
Mountain stream.jpg
This is roughly what I am after.

The challenge is a deep pour epoxy resin in a stream that flows down a mountain.
I'd like some depth to add dead branches, stones etc, about 7mm deep when it starts up the mountain, then progressively getting deeper until the river forms where it would be about 20mm deep.

I was thinking of making "steps" much like cascades so the resin wouldn't all settle at the lowest level, but that would have an unnatural look to it

Here is a topology mock-up:
Topology Mock-up.jpg
Maybe I could tilt the layout so that a section of the stream is level, pour the resin, wait for it to harden, then tilt so the next section of stream is level and repeat.
Would that be achievable with epoxy?
Essentailly I'll have several hardened sections making up the entire stream, each poured when the layout was tilted to make that section of the stream level ?

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Offline Toosmall  
#14 Posted : 19 July 2023 14:26:25(UTC)
Toosmall

Australia   
Joined: 26/07/2021(UTC)
Posts: 616
Location: Sydney
No issues in doing it in sections. Just install all the formwork for each "weir" so there are no leaks (a piece of plastic sheet), a bit of a key between each section so they lock together.

If you are well organised, which you should be, I think about an hour per section allowing for cleaning & organising for the next section. Some plastic disposable cups for polyurethane.

Pre calculate the volume of each section. Fill it up with rice & then pour that into a measuring flask, or weigh & compare to a known volume/weight.

Any logs, growies, rocks, sand or whatever, pre install in or out, or partially in water. You will not have time to fluff around with curing resin trying to push things into water. The only time you have will be dedicated to surface texturing with paddlepop sticks etc.

If you want a boat, pre install it so it sits at the correct height with some overhead bracing. If it needs an anchor, pre-install anchor & chain/rope to the bottom.

Use polyurethane casting resin, not epoxy, it stinks. I have used a fair bit of polyurethane. I originally started with epoxy, then changed to polyurethane.
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