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Offline einotuominen  
#1 Posted : 03 January 2023 12:51:25(UTC)
einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 382
Location: Kaarina
Hi guys,

I never liked steamers so much until my layout started to get some scenery and suddenly the one I have, started to look really good on it. The one I have is Märklin 3048 which I believe to be Class 01 heavy steamer. It belonged to my father and I think it is manufactured in the early 1960's. It has lately been retrofitted with mLD3 decoder and it run's really well with one exception IT IS REALLY INSANELY NOISY!

Now the steamer fever really bit me... However I think having sounds (engine sound synchronised with loco speed Love ) and smoke with them is essential.

Now I'm looking for old steamers for retrofitting. Can be analogue, can be delta and must run on R1 curves.

Which models are the most silent, which ones can you recommend?

Best regards,
-Eino
Offline rhfil  
#2 Posted : 03 January 2023 13:00:53(UTC)
rhfil

United States   
Joined: 05/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 426
Location: NEW HAMPSHIRE, Somersworth
What are you using for a controller? Without knowing that, the size of the speaker limits to a certain degree the volume of the sound so the smaller locos such as the B VI do not produce a large volume of sound.
If you have a CS3 controller you can edit the sound volume of each function separately or the sound level overall. I think you may also be able to do that with the CS2 but don't have one to confirm it.
Offline einotuominen  
#3 Posted : 03 January 2023 13:05:51(UTC)
einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 382
Location: Kaarina
Originally Posted by: rhfil Go to Quoted Post
What are you using for a controller?


I have a Mobile Station 2 (with the trackbox). I drive with Rocrail, so that's why I don't have a CS. I'm planning on changing all of my FX and some of the mLD3 fitted locos to mSD3 during this year, so I think I will need to have the USB decoder programming dongle anyways. (don't know if it works with a Macintosh though Confused )

BR,
-Eino

Offline JohnjeanB  
#4 Posted : 03 January 2023 14:33:27(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,123
Location: Paris, France
Originally Posted by: einotuominen Go to Quoted Post
Hi guys,

I never liked steamers so much until my layout started to get some scenery and suddenly the one I have, started to look really good on it. The one I have is Märklin 3048 which I believe to be Class 01 heavy steamer. It belonged to my father and I think it is manufactured in the early 1960's. It has lately been retrofitted with mLD3 decoder and it run's really well with one exception IT IS REALLY INSANELY NOISY!

Now the steamer fever really bit me... However I think having sounds (engine sound synchronised with loco speed Love ) and smoke with them is essential.

Now I'm looking for old steamers for retrofitting. Can be analogue, can be delta and must run on R1 curves.

Which models are the most silent, which ones can you recommend?

Best regards,
-Eino

Hi Eino
I think, Märklin models from 2000 have an improved mechanics because of sound decoders, it was important to reduce the noise.
Also try to avoid "coffee grinders" traditional Märklin motors even 5 poles ones.
So, opening the Märklin website:
- pick a steamer you like (earlier models before year 2000 do not show
- look for "Veröffentlichungen" and you will know which year they started to sell on the market
- look for Description to see which motor type. I tend to avoid SDS motors: they have an excellent running characteristics but are not repairable.
- best choice is (IMO) models with Bell-shaped motor and CAN motors
- if you don't like yellow LEDs pick models past 2005.

Cheers
Jean


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Offline einotuominen  
#5 Posted : 03 January 2023 14:36:34(UTC)
einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 382
Location: Kaarina
Originally Posted by: JohnjeanB Go to Quoted Post

Hi Eino
I think, Märklin models from 2000 have an improved mechanics because of sound decoders, it was important to reduce the noise.
Also try to avoid "coffee grinders" traditional Märklin motors even 5 poles ones.
So, opening the Märklin website:
- pick a steamer you like (earlier models before year 2000 do not show
- look for "Veröffentlichungen" and you will know which year they started to sell on the market
- look for Description to see which motor type. I tend to avoid SDS motors: they have an excellent running characteristics but are not repairable.
- best choice is (IMO) models with Bell-shaped motor and CAN motors
- if you don't like yellow LEDs pick models past 2005.

Cheers
Jean




Once again, this is so helpful! I'll start browsing the catalogue.

You must have first hand experience right, which locos would you personally recommend?

BR,
-Eino
Offline kiwiAlan  
#6 Posted : 03 January 2023 15:17:39(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,107
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: einotuominen Go to Quoted Post
so I think I will need to have the USB decoder programming dongle anyways. (don't know if it works with a Macintosh though Confused )


Unfortunately it is only a Windows program, and the dongle uses a special name that program expects to find. I have tried using it with Wine on Linux, but the problem is getting the special dongle name defined in Wine so the program can find the appropriate port. I haven't given up yet, it is just another project I need to get back to ... RollEyes

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Offline einotuominen  
#7 Posted : 03 January 2023 15:22:34(UTC)
einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 382
Location: Kaarina
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post


Unfortunately it is only a Windows program, and the dongle uses a special name that program expects to find. I have tried using it with Wine on Linux, but the problem is getting the special dongle name defined in Wine so the program can find the appropriate port. I haven't given up yet, it is just another project I need to get back to ... RollEyes



I'm prepared to install Virtual Box... Or maybe find someone with an old PC laptop how can borrow it BigGrin

Offline JohnjeanB  
#8 Posted : 03 January 2023 17:32:13(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,123
Location: Paris, France
Originally Posted by: einotuominen Go to Quoted Post
You must have first hand experience right, which locos would you personally recommend?

Hi
My favourites are (all MFX and sound locos):
- the BR24 (36240) I fitted mine with a sound decoder and a Telex couling.
- the SNCF 241A65 39241 Really splendid but difficult to find. Excellent runner even on R1
- the BR 65 30650
- the BR 01 138 (39008) with coal-level adjust depending on consumption. Very nice and detailed but servo is fragile.
- BR 58 (37589) a wonderful dirty coal loco for coal transport
- the BR 50 from Mega set (29640) back in 2012 with a "Kabine" tender. Simplified model with sound telex and articulated chassis.
- the BR96 (3795) from1995, upgraded with MFX Sound
- the BR 18.5 (39030) from 2015 Very detailed but some issues with the link Tender-Loco (Fixed working platform)

I have the BR45, nice, impressive but not such a good runner (does not derail but sometimes jerks aside when crossing R2 switches and DSS)
I also have the T16 KPEV (37166) splendid livery, Telex coupling

I hope this helps
Cheers
Jean
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Offline rhfil  
#9 Posted : 03 January 2023 18:00:50(UTC)
rhfil

United States   
Joined: 05/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 426
Location: NEW HAMPSHIRE, Somersworth
I think his reference to loudness is the running sound function. I collect era I and II so not familiar with the DB steam locos mentioned but I think most are fairly large and would have large(loud) speakers. Many locos are smoke ready just do not have the smoker as factory installed. And most steamers are only available used from resellers or auction houses. I think if the sound level was most important I would first save up and buy a CS3 - about the price of two locos and then I could adjust the sound level of each loco to exactly what I found appropriate.
Offline einotuominen  
#10 Posted : 03 January 2023 18:22:19(UTC)
einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 382
Location: Kaarina
Originally Posted by: rhfil Go to Quoted Post
I think his reference to loudness is the running sound function.


Hello, no I refer to the mechanical sounds of the electric engine, gears and pistons. Listen to this Instagram video and you get the idea how loud this loco is: https://www.instagram.co...CZF/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

BR,
-Eino
Offline JohnjeanB  
#11 Posted : 03 January 2023 18:41:09(UTC)
JohnjeanB

France   
Joined: 04/02/2011(UTC)
Posts: 3,123
Location: Paris, France
Yes running sound loudness (loco is noisy) force you to raise the sound to cover it which lead to a very unpleasant cacophonia.
This is why I select locos that have a silent running to keep the simulated sound (from decoder) to a "discrete" level.
Just a personal choice.
Older locos from the 50s to the 80s are often noisy (gear machining tolerances). At the time, locos would run on a metal track in most cases, direct on a plywood plate (good drum).
Strangely, in the 50s, Märklin inserted a nylon gear after the motor to reduce the noise but did not went further. Loco aging (wearing) makes things worse.
Cheers
Jean
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Offline rhfil  
#12 Posted : 03 January 2023 18:48:31(UTC)
rhfil

United States   
Joined: 05/09/2014(UTC)
Posts: 426
Location: NEW HAMPSHIRE, Somersworth
Most of my locos have running sounds and I run them with it on so the engine motor, and other real operating sounds including the click of the wheels over the track joints, which sounds the loudest on the video, are covered. I know some people prefer to run trains silently and even complain about the noise from the track but steam trains were noisy and dirty in reality. That is why the phrase the pricier the ticket the further from the engine.
Offline bph  
#13 Posted : 03 January 2023 19:06:19(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 996
Originally Posted by: einotuominen Go to Quoted Post
Hi guys,

I never liked steamers so much until my layout started to get some scenery and suddenly the one I have, started to look really good on it. The one I have is Märklin 3048 which I believe to be Class 01 heavy steamer. It belonged to my father and I think it is manufactured in the early 1960's. It has lately been retrofitted with mLD3 decoder and it run's really well with one exception IT IS REALLY INSANELY NOISY!

Now the steamer fever really bit me... However I think having sounds (engine sound synchronised with loco speed Love ) and smoke with them is essential.

Now I'm looking for old steamers for retrofitting. Can be analogue, can be delta and must run on R1 curves.

Which models are the most silent, which ones can you recommend?

Best regards,
-Eino

How old locomotives are you looking for ?
if you want silent "old" locomotives, one option is to look for some old württ C, eg the 3311 from 1988 or a later version. it has a Faulhaber motor and is very silent. later editions have Maxon motors and they are also quite good. but those locomotives "need" a new adapter board. eg: https://luessi.ch/eshop/oc/lussi_products.html/pcbs_for_steam_engines.html
and the speaker space in those is a bit limited. An old Württ K also has a nice motor. It's possible to install a smoke generator in the old C's but they require extra wiring, as they are not fully prepared for it.
If you want to make more classic locomotives more silent you also have sb-modellbau.com, but its quite expensive.

and as for the running of the mdecodertool software an old windows laptop is probably the best option, as the Marklin USB dongle seems to use some kind of USB to com drivers. USB to com drivers are known to be a bit unreliable.......
Offline einotuominen  
#14 Posted : 03 January 2023 19:56:53(UTC)
einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 382
Location: Kaarina
Originally Posted by: bph Go to Quoted Post

How old locomotives are you looking for ?


Well the age does not matter in itself. What is important is that the mechanics are silent enough, so I can enjoy the digital sounds without a cacophony.

I can do conversions but it would be good if the motor was already made for digital. Most my trains run with 60944 motor and I think it is silent enough, although non of those locos have digital sounds (either FX or mLD3 decoders). I'm planning to upgrade them to sound versions during this year though... Or at least one of them to find out the truth about how it will turn out...

Anyways, if the loco price and conversion price goes over half the price of a new loco, then I'm off to buy new ones. Older locos ofcourse are cheaper.

Thanks Jean for the list!
Offline kiwiAlan  
#15 Posted : 03 January 2023 20:10:21(UTC)
kiwiAlan

United Kingdom   
Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,107
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: bph Go to Quoted Post

and as for the running of the mdecodertool software an old windows laptop is probably the best option, as the Marklin USB dongle seems to use some kind of USB to com drivers. USB to com drivers are known to be a bit unreliable.......


Generally it is not the drivers, and Marklin use the FTDI chip set which is arguably the most reliable USB-COM driver around. But what they have done is load the dongle with its own special device name that the Marklin program looks for. This is what makes it more difficult to run the Marklin software in a VM on another OS. I have had the software running under Wine, it just cannot find the dongle.

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bph
Offline bph  
#16 Posted : 03 January 2023 22:34:32(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 996
Originally Posted by: einotuominen Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: bph Go to Quoted Post

How old locomotives are you looking for ?


Well the age does not matter in itself. What is important is that the mechanics are silent enough, so I can enjoy the digital sounds without a cacophony.

I can do conversions but it would be good if the motor was already made for digital. Most my trains run with 60944 motor and I think it is silent enough, although non of those locos have digital sounds (either FX or mLD3 decoders). I'm planning to upgrade them to sound versions during this year though... Or at least one of them to find out the truth about how it will turn out...

Anyways, if the loco price and conversion price goes over half the price of a new loco, then I'm off to buy new ones. Older locos ofcourse are cheaper.

Thanks Jean for the list!


yes, that makes sense.
And with the old Marklin locomotives that have Faulhaber and Maxon motors etc, you can just add a new decoder directly, the downside is spare motors, but if the motor fails you can most likely use a spare one from a newer version. but remember to set the decoder to type 4 (bell anchor) and do an automatic calibration.
also since you are ok with 60944, you might consider some older 37xx steamers with permanent magnet motors (60941) eg the 3790 is quite nice. An advantage with that locomotive is the big tender and space for i decent speaker. eg like I did with this: (kept the original motor, used an msd3 and ESU 50344 speaker) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTExPVkUPWc
this is just an example, there are plenty of other good candidates out there that are fairly cheap second-hand. And don't rely on the number series alone for the type of motor check the description in old catalogues and parts lists etc.

note that some very early Marklin permanent motors had magnets that dissolved over time, so if possible ask for a picture of the motor.
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Offline einotuominen  
#17 Posted : 04 January 2023 12:30:10(UTC)
einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 382
Location: Kaarina
Originally Posted by: bph Go to Quoted Post


yes, that makes sense.
And with the old Marklin locomotives that have Faulhaber and Maxon motors etc, you can just add a new decoder directly, the downside is spare motors, but if the motor fails you can most likely use a spare one from a newer version. but remember to set the decoder to type 4 (bell anchor) and do an automatic calibration.
also since you are ok with 60944, you might consider some older 37xx steamers with permanent magnet motors (60941) eg the 3790 is quite nice. An advantage with that locomotive is the big tender and space for i decent speaker. eg like I did with this: (kept the original motor, used an msd3 and ESU 50344 speaker) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTExPVkUPWc
this is just an example, there are plenty of other good candidates out there that are fairly cheap second-hand. And don't rely on the number series alone for the type of motor check the description in old catalogues and parts lists etc.

note that some very early Marklin permanent motors had magnets that dissolved over time, so if possible ask for a picture of the motor.


Thanks! A lot of things here I were not yet familiar with. I'll look into those Faulhaber and Maxon motors.

--

So I did some findings, hopefully good ones, but we'll se when they arrive. I checked on Youtube and the locos seemed/sounded what I'm looking for. So I ordered two locos and found them in particulary good price (I think?), together only 165 euros.

37187 (S 3/6 K. bay. ST. B.) the black one, which I think has the 5 pole motor: https://www.maerklin.de/...ts/details/article/37187

29240 BR 24, the loco from this starter set https://www.maerklin.de/...ts/details/article/29240

I guess the BR 24 has the bell armature motor, right?

Also found 60975 mSD3 decoders for under 80 € for those two locos on eBay, so at least on planning paper it is a good start for the project, the locos will be about 165 € each when I later add the smoke generators too.

It will most likeyl be a couple of weeks before they arrive, but I'll post a video of the outcome, when I get the decoders installed.

Also this topic pretty much generated a very long wish list Love BigGrin Laugh

Best regards,
-Eino

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bph
Offline bph  
#18 Posted : 04 January 2023 18:48:31(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 996
Those locomotives from 37187 are very nice ThumpUp

a Br 24 is also a nice little locomotive, but I'm pretty sure it has a "standard" dc motor. Few locomotives with that "general" motor shape have a bell armature motor. (ref the drawing). but there are some that have, eg the 37938 that has an Athlonix bell armature motor, and the class 39 versions of that locomotive has a SDS motor. eg 39393. except the 39395, which has received the standard new Marklin dc motor.
and the wiki.3rail.nl is a good source for different model information. and it translates fairly well with google. but there might be occasional errors as Marklin sometimes also change things during production.
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Offline einotuominen  
#19 Posted : 19 January 2023 08:04:37(UTC)
einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 382
Location: Kaarina
Originally Posted by: bph Go to Quoted Post

a Br 24 is also a nice little locomotive, but I'm pretty sure it has a "standard" dc motor. Few locomotives with that "general" motor shape have a bell armature motor.


Hi! So a part of the mSD3 decoders are arriving today. So I opened up this BR24 for the first time to see the insides. Here are the photos below. So I'm no good at identifying motors (I'm just too new to the hobby). So is this just a regular DC or a bell armature?

Also now that I've been driving this a little, the FX decoder this loco has, seems to beat the hell out of the 60760 decoder I still have in three locos. Before I have the money to install mSD3 to every loco, I was thinking maybe I can use this decoder to replace one of them for now. Can anyone identify this decoder? It's not hard to track the wirings, and mutlimeter will help, but I assume these follow standard Märklin color codes. The loco I'm planning to transfer this has 60944 motor.

Here're the photos:

IMG_1624.jpg

IMG_1625.jpg

Offline bph  
#20 Posted : 19 January 2023 09:34:08(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 996
Originally Posted by: einotuominen Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: bph Go to Quoted Post

a Br 24 is also a nice little locomotive, but I'm pretty sure it has a "standard" dc motor. Few locomotives with that "general" motor shape have a bell armature motor.


Hi! So a part of the mSD3 decoders are arriving today. So I opened up this BR24 for the first time to see the insides. Here are the photos below. So I'm no good at identifying motors (I'm just too new to the hobby). So is this just a regular DC or a bell armature?

Also now that I've been driving this a little, the FX decoder this loco has, seems to beat the hell out of the 60760 decoder I still have in three locos. Before I have the money to install mSD3 to every loco, I was thinking maybe I can use this decoder to replace one of them for now. Can anyone identify this decoder? It's not hard to track the wirings, and mutlimeter will help, but I assume these follow standard Märklin color codes. The loco I'm planning to transfer this has 60944 motor.


it is actually a variation of the 60760 decoder made for the br 24, ref: https://moba-hgh.de/modellbahn/umbauten/lokomotiven/maerklin-trix/maerklin-standard/168-modellbahn/umbauten/lokomotiven/maerklin-trix-hobby-lokomotiven/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=645:maerklin-decoder-familie-pic&catid=122:standard&Itemid=445#150436-36240-2


as for the motor, does it have any markings/numbers etc?
Offline einotuominen  
#21 Posted : 19 January 2023 14:50:41(UTC)
einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 382
Location: Kaarina


Ah ok. That is interesting... Maybe there are some minor differences. Driving characteristics were considerably better in my opinion...

Originally Posted by: bph Go to Quoted Post
as for the motor, does it have any markings/numbers etc?


No markings unfortunately. They must be on the underside. I'll keep searching for the info.

Thanks!

-Eino

Offline einotuominen  
#22 Posted : 19 January 2023 17:22:46(UTC)
einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 382
Location: Kaarina
Originally Posted by: bph Go to Quoted Post

as for the motor, does it have any markings/numbers etc?


This is what Märklin customer service tell me: ”It is a high performance DC drive. (no bell armature).”

-Eino
Offline bph  
#23 Posted : 19 January 2023 17:59:58(UTC)
bph

Norway   
Joined: 04/08/2018(UTC)
Posts: 996
Originally Posted by: einotuominen Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: bph Go to Quoted Post

as for the motor, does it have any markings/numbers etc?


This is what Märklin customer service tell me: ”It is a high performance DC drive. (no bell armature).”

-Eino


then it's a standard dc motor Smile, (as I suggested in post 18 above.)
Offline einotuominen  
#24 Posted : 19 January 2023 18:26:07(UTC)
einotuominen

Finland   
Joined: 19/09/2022(UTC)
Posts: 382
Location: Kaarina
Originally Posted by: bph Go to Quoted Post


then it's a standard dc motor Smile, (as I suggested in post 18 above.)


Yeah I remember BigGrin just wanted to be sure. Thanks!
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