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Having a brain fart... cannot figure this out - Delta loco on a CS-2
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Offline RBOrrell  
#1 Posted : 24 November 2022 21:02:39(UTC)
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RBOrrell

Canada   
Joined: 21/02/2014(UTC)
Posts: 2
Location: Aurora, Ontario
I cannot find the answer in any of my resources, so I am throwing this out there...

I have a CS-2 and I have two things that I would like, maybe I cannot but I will ask. By the way, the CS-2 is fairly new software - I have not applied the last update - so I am one behind.

First thing, I would like to have an accurate picture of the locomotive in my list, to make it easier. Some are in the DB so are not. Is there a way to get an up to date set of pictures?

Secondly, I have acquired two locomotives that indicate on the box that they are Delta. I added them to the loco list using the item number. They were found - although the warning that the address was already used (78 I think) came up. I said to go ahead and I changed the address to match the switch setting on the card. Magically they work. What does not work are the lights and on the one with a smoke unit, I cannot turn that on. Ona true "digital" loco, there are button enabled on the CS-2 to toggle lights and things like the smoke unit. Is there a way to add these functions OR... do I need to swap the Delta card with a Digital?

Thanks in advance.
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Offline H0  
#2 Posted : 24 November 2022 21:06:30(UTC)
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H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,262
Location: DE-NW
Hi!
Welcome to the forum.
Originally Posted by: RBOrrell Go to Quoted Post
Some are in the DB so are not. Is there a way to get an up to date set of pictures?
You can upload loco images. From your own photos or use icons found on the Internet. Some fora like Stummi's share CS2 loco pictures.

See "CS2 Loco Icon images" here:
https://www.marklin-user...ted-documents#post636617

Originally Posted by: RBOrrell Go to Quoted Post
Ona true "digital" loco, there are button enabled on the CS-2 to toggle lights and things like the smoke unit. Is there a way to add these functions OR... do I need to swap the Delta card with a Digital?
Most Delta locos do not have any digitally controlled functions.
Some late Delta models have digitally controlled lights.
So no chance without soldering or replacing the decoder.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline RBOrrell  
#3 Posted : 24 November 2022 21:43:41(UTC)
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RBOrrell

Canada   
Joined: 21/02/2014(UTC)
Posts: 2
Location: Aurora, Ontario
Thanks Tom,

As I continued my research, I came to the conclusion that a new decoder was my solution.
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Offline BenP  
#4 Posted : 25 November 2022 03:05:56(UTC)
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BenP

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Joined: 04/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 344
Location: Michigan, Ann Arbor
78 is default Marklin decoder setting (or after reset). Delta card may not offer more than forward and backward motion, and lights that switch with direction (sometimes lights only work when train moves). No other options.
A modern decoder gives control you seek (marklin or esu), without needing to update motor.

Edit: 78 applies to post-dip switches digital decoders. See enthusiastic responses by others.

Edited by user 27 November 2022 18:32:39(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Digital M (+ some K) track layout with mostly vintage rolling stock and accessories, and small Z scale layout.
https://youtube.com/play...0kgVYbh0CeDTF-bYXoD_2-V9
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Offline H0  
#5 Posted : 25 November 2022 11:31:24(UTC)
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H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,262
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: BenP Go to Quoted Post
78 is default Marklin decoder setting (or after reset).
Delta decoders cannot be reset.
The default addresses are 24, 60, 72, or 78, depending on the type of loco.


Originally Posted by: BenP Go to Quoted Post
Delta card may not offer more than forward and backward motion, and lights that switch with direction (sometimes lights only work when train moves). No other options.
Delta may offer F0 and F1 without modification. There also can be Telex support, triggered by changing the direction of travel. Actual configuration depends on the loco. In most cases, Delta locos do not have any functions.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#6 Posted : 25 November 2022 11:32:49(UTC)
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kiwiAlan

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Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,102
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: BenP Go to Quoted Post
78 is default Marklin decoder setting (or after reset)


Not quite. 78 is the default address for a Delta steam loco. There are different default addresses for electric, diesel and railcars. IIRC the default for electric is 24, I can't remember the other two.

This default addressing scheme has been carried over to the current entry level Infra Red and wired controllers that are issued in start sets, and for all fx decoders. You may find that mfx decoders have the same default addresses for MM mode operation.
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Offline cintrans  
#7 Posted : 25 November 2022 17:48:08(UTC)
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cintrans

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Joined: 11/07/2018(UTC)
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Location: Aruba (general), Oranjestad
Not correct

Delta decoders can be give a different address via the dip switches

The decoders with 4 set of switches give you a choise of 15 different addresses
With the decoders with 8 sets of switches you have 80 different addresses to choose from....

The Delta CONTROLLERS give you only access to the 4 standard addresses ....

Regards

Jean-Pierre
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Offline H0  
#8 Posted : 25 November 2022 18:09:15(UTC)
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H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,262
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: cintrans Go to Quoted Post
Not correct
What are you referring to?


Originally Posted by: cintrans Go to Quoted Post
Delta decoders can be give a different address via the dip switches
Not correct - some require soldering.

Originally Posted by: cintrans Go to Quoted Post
The Delta CONTROLLERS give you only access to the 4 standard addresses ....
Not correct - with a Delta Pilot you get 5 addresses. With soldering you get 15 addresses.



Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline cintrans  
#9 Posted : 25 November 2022 23:31:07(UTC)
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cintrans

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Location: Aruba (general), Oranjestad
Hi Tom

I was referring to the statement:

<<<<<<< Delta decoders cannot be reset.
<<<<<<< The default addresses are 24, 60, 72, or 78, depending on the type of loco.

That said, you are right, i should have been more precise by mentioning the Delta decoders with soldering pads and the Delta Pilot......

Regards

Jean-Pierre
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#10 Posted : 26 November 2022 00:21:53(UTC)
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kiwiAlan

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Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,102
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: cintrans Go to Quoted Post
Hi Tom

I was referring to the statement:

...
<<<<<<< The default addresses are 24, 60, 72, or 78, depending on the type of loco.



What is incorrect with that statement?
That is exactly how DELTA decoder fitted locos left the factory, set to one of those four addresses according to the type of loco. The only time I am aware of a loco with a DELTA decoder being supplied with an address different to those four was the one loco that was supplied with a DELTA Pilot hand control, which was set to 80, that being the only address that the DELTA Pilot can control.

There is one other option that was used for a time was to have all 4 dip switches set to off to set the loco into analogue operation, which was the default "address" when marklin had to disable automatic digital mode detection, so the default shipping mode was analogue mode.

Marklin have continued to use those four addresses (listed in the quote) as the default address according to loco type for all fx decoders so they can be put on the track and instantly run from a DELTA controller or the current basic handsets supplied in start sets. I have a number of 36xxx series locos where this is the case.
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H0
Offline BenP  
#11 Posted : 26 November 2022 06:33:19(UTC)
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BenP

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Joined: 04/02/2021(UTC)
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Location: Michigan, Ann Arbor
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: BenP Go to Quoted Post
78 is default Marklin decoder setting (or after reset).
Delta decoders cannot be reset.
The default addresses are 24, 60, 72, or 78, depending on the type of loco.


Sorry, 78 is MM default address, adjustable with digital controller.
Digital M (+ some K) track layout with mostly vintage rolling stock and accessories, and small Z scale layout.
https://youtube.com/play...0kgVYbh0CeDTF-bYXoD_2-V9
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Offline H0  
#12 Posted : 26 November 2022 18:03:22(UTC)
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H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,262
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: BenP Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: BenP Go to Quoted Post
78 is default Marklin decoder setting (or after reset).
Delta decoders cannot be reset.
The default addresses are 24, 60, 72, or 78, depending on the type of loco.


Sorry, 78 is MM default address, adjustable with digital controller.
Programmable decoders can be reset by the controller, using the RESET option (that usually writes value 8 into register 8). This option has no effect on Delta decoders.
A Delta decoder can be "reset" using the DIP switches (or solder pads), but will get the address set by the user, not the factory default address.
The address can be adjusted using a screwdriver or a soldering iron, but it cannot be adjusted with the digital controller by means of programming.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline kiwiAlan  
#13 Posted : 26 November 2022 18:39:50(UTC)
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kiwiAlan

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Joined: 23/07/2014(UTC)
Posts: 8,102
Location: ENGLAND, Didcot
Originally Posted by: BenP Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: BenP Go to Quoted Post
78 is default Marklin decoder setting (or after reset).
Delta decoders cannot be reset.
The default addresses are 24, 60, 72, or 78, depending on the type of loco.


Sorry, 78 is MM default address,


How MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY IT?
DELTA decoders have four possible 'default' addresses depending on loco type - as listed in the piece you quoted.

Originally Posted by: BenP Go to Quoted Post

adjustable with digital controller.


Not on a DELTA decoder, they have DIP switches or solder bridges, so a digital controller cannot adjust them.

A digital controller can only adjust FX or mfx decoders, not DELTA ones.

The default addresses for FX decoders fitted to locomotives from the factory are the same as the four addresses listed in the piece you quoted above, and dependant on the loco type. I don't know what address they reset to if a decoder reset is done.

There are bare decoders for aftermarket retrofit that are supplied with address 78 from the factory, but that doesn't make it the absolute default address.
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Offline BenP  
#14 Posted : 27 November 2022 04:52:32(UTC)
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BenP

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Joined: 04/02/2021(UTC)
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Location: Michigan, Ann Arbor
Originally Posted by: kiwiAlan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: BenP Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: BenP Go to Quoted Post
78 is default Marklin decoder setting (or after reset).
Delta decoders cannot be reset.
The default addresses are 24, 60, 72, or 78, depending on the type of loco.


Sorry, 78 is MM default address,


How MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY IT?
DELTA decoders have four possible 'default' addresses depending on loco type - as listed in the piece you quoted.

Originally Posted by: BenP Go to Quoted Post

adjustable with digital controller.


Not on a DELTA decoder, they have DIP switches or solder bridges, so a digital controller cannot adjust them.

A digital controller can only adjust FX or mfx decoders, not DELTA ones.

The default addresses for FX decoders fitted to locomotives from the factory are the same as the four addresses listed in the piece you quoted above, and dependant on the loco type. I don't know what address they reset to if a decoder reset is done.

There are bare decoders for aftermarket retrofit that are supplied with address 78 from the factory, but that doesn't make it the absolute default address.


Slow down Mr Kiwi, I agree with you and others (and apologized for misdirection). The post-Delta, post-dip switches digital, like 60760 kit MM, is 78, and controllable with 6021 and up. Peace.

Edited by user 27 November 2022 18:28:43(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Digital M (+ some K) track layout with mostly vintage rolling stock and accessories, and small Z scale layout.
https://youtube.com/play...0kgVYbh0CeDTF-bYXoD_2-V9
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Offline H0  
#15 Posted : 28 November 2022 09:45:46(UTC)
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H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,262
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: BenP Go to Quoted Post
The post-Delta, post-dip switches digital, like 60760 kit MM, is 78, and controllable with 6021 and up.
The 60760 is a programmable FX decoder, not a Delta decoder. It should be noted that there also are FX decoders with DIP switches and FX decoders with soldering pads, so not all FX decoders are programmable.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
UserPostedImage
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Offline BenP  
#16 Posted : 30 November 2022 05:25:35(UTC)
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BenP

United States   
Joined: 04/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 344
Location: Michigan, Ann Arbor
Originally Posted by: H0 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: BenP Go to Quoted Post
The post-Delta, post-dip switches digital, like 60760 kit MM, is 78, and controllable with 6021 and up.
The 60760 is a programmable FX decoder, not a Delta decoder. It should be noted that there also are FX decoders with DIP switches and FX decoders with soldering pads, so not all FX decoders are programmable.



I (mistakenly?) thought Marklin's digital evolution is:
Delta>MM(MärklinMotorola)>Mfx>Mfx+
Digital M (+ some K) track layout with mostly vintage rolling stock and accessories, and small Z scale layout.
https://youtube.com/play...0kgVYbh0CeDTF-bYXoD_2-V9
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thanks 1 user liked this useful post by BenP
Jay
Offline H0  
#17 Posted : 30 November 2022 08:06:44(UTC)
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H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,262
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: BenP Go to Quoted Post
I (mistakenly?) thought Marklin's digital evolution is:
Delta>MM(MärklinMotorola)>Mfx>Mfx+
It started with MM. Then came DCC, developed on behalf of Märklin.
Delta used the normal MM chips initially, just wired differently to allow cheaper production. With respect to the track signal, Delta is MM as it uses the same chips, but leaves some features unused.
Then came FX while decoders still had DIP switches.
Then came programmable FX decoders, supplied by ESU.
Then came mfx, implemented by ESU on behalf of Märklin.
Then came programmable FX decoders, no longer supplied by ESU - weaker load regulation, reduced features.
Then came mfx in Märklin "home-brew" decoders. Lots of teething problems.
Then came mfx+.

This list does not include the generations of cheap starter set controllers that came after the MS1.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline revmox  
#18 Posted : 19 January 2023 07:06:49(UTC)
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revmox

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Joined: 26/05/2021(UTC)
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Location: Australia, East Maitland, NSW
The variety of decoder and motor combinations isn't easy to get your head around if you haven't been involved through the various generations of Marklin control.

I have been offered some older Marklin loks that have dip switches. I've picked up a handful of identical little yellow mfx loks from discarded Aldi sets.

Is there a good chance that the decoders taken from the Alid sets will work well in the older loks? Or is it just too much trouble to worry about?

PXL_20230119_052135296.jpg
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Offline H0  
#19 Posted : 19 January 2023 09:50:12(UTC)
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H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
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Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: revmox Go to Quoted Post
Is there a good chance that the decoders taken from the Alid sets will work well in the older loks?
Feel free to give it a try.
With factory-installed mfx decoders, quite often the motor type is fixed in the decoder. This could be a problem in locos with other motors.
You have no specs for the function outputs.

Do the decoders have the 21MTC socket? That would be a good sign. But I'm afraid they do not.
Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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Offline cintrans  
#20 Posted : 19 January 2023 12:11:20(UTC)
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cintrans

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Location: Aruba (general), Oranjestad
If the older lok's have dip switches they most probably still have motors with field coils (AC motors)
Doubtful the decoders from the "Aldi" lok's will work on these as those are DC motors

Regards

Jean-Pierre
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Offline H0  
#21 Posted : 19 January 2023 12:27:03(UTC)
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H0


Joined: 16/02/2004(UTC)
Posts: 15,262
Location: DE-NW
Originally Posted by: cintrans Go to Quoted Post
If the older lok's have dip switches they most probably still have motors with field coils (AC motors)
Doubtful the decoders from the "Aldi" lok's will work on these as those are DC motors
The old motors are AC/DC motors. No problem to run them with a "DC" decoder as long as you can disable load regulation - but that could be impossible with factory-installed decoders.
Even Delta decoders feed the motors with DC.

Regards
Tom
---
"In all of the gauges, we particularly emphasize a high level of quality, the best possible fidelity to the prototype, and absolute precision. You will see that in all of our products." (from Märklin New Items Brochure 2015, page 1) ROFLBTCUTS
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